They spend way too much on high-quality graphics, voice overs and marketing and not enough on improving content creation tools, client/server performance, and gameplay research and design.  Minecraft and many other indie games have proven that online games don't need glitz and sparkles to be highly popular.  The game just needs to be fun and have plenty of 'different' activities for players to enjoy.

Also, I don't think subscriptions are dead or concept should go away.  I don't think cash shops and free to play is the natural or needed evolution of business models for MMORPG's.  The problem is that people are tired of the same ol' empty, soulless worlds that are all about combat and formulaic character development geared almost exclusively towards combat.  Why do AAA MMORPG's skip the implementation of interesting housing and ship ownership/construction/exploration - well most anyway - even though those have been in other MMORPG's since 1997?

If MMORPG developers could scale back on graphic quality and voice over so that they could focus more on gameplay and technology then we'd start to see MMORPG's that are worth a subscription.  

There are a couple of games released, that you can play today, that are exactly what you are describing OP.

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

Originally posted by BadSpock

There are a couple of games released, that you can play today, that are exactly what you are describing OP.

 

None of which are done by AAA developers.

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first graphical MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

This is the thinking that leads to the continued cycle of overspending on graphics.

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first graphical MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

None of that makes you an expert - a wanna-be expert but not an expert. Never said I was an expert - I am a gamer and I play for fun.

Since you know so much, you should know that great graphics can make or break a AAA game. If you don't know that, then you should. Listen to Bad Spock - he is the cat's meow on this forum.

Indies can afford to have lower quality graphics since they don't have the cash to develop them.  It is like Pixar movies - look at how much money is spent on making the movies look good.

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

When World of Warcraft launched it's graphics were actually dated for the time. They made up for this with great environments and a boat load more content then any other MMORPG at the time.  Their ability to provide more content than other MMORPG's -especially EQ 2- at the time was absolutely related to their stylish, far from realistic (meaning, less time spent on) graphics.  Part of their success was they focused on technology that worked on most computers with a 3D card.  You didn't have to buy a new computer to play WoW.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first graphical MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

None of that makes you an expert - a wanna-be expert but not an expert. Never said I was an expert - I am a gamer and I play for fun.

Since you know so much, you should know that great graphics can make or break a AAA game. If you don't know that, then you should. Listen to Bad Spock - he is the cat's meow on this forum.

 Indies can afford to have lower quality graphics since they don't have the cash to develop them.  It is like Pixar movies - look at how much money is spent on making the movies look good.

The problem here is you're comparing apples to oranges in terms of a Pixar movie and a game.  A badly animated movie will end -most of the time- being a bad movie that nobody wants to watch.  This is far from true for an MMORPG.   Animation is probably mroe important than the graphics themselves, to be honest.

And, it is true that -at first- an MMORPG may not sell as well if it's graphics seem to be subpar compared to other MMORPG's on the market.  However, gameplay WILL MAKE UP FOR THIS.  It's been proven over and over again that an MMORPG with great gameplay can help a game grow.  For example, Eve.  You may not like it, I didn't like it, but it's growing.  It's graphics weren't spectacular, but it's gameplay pushed it in that direction.

Or, what about League of Legends?  The most popular game on the planet also have graphics that are mid 2000's or earlier quality.  Think about that for a moment.  Yet, again, it's the most popular online game on the planet (besides poker or apps like Angry Birds).  Can you explain this away?

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

When World of Warcraft launched it's graphics were actually dated for the time. They made up for this with great environments and a boat load more content then any other MMORPG at the time.  Their ability to provide more content than other MMORPG's -especially EQ 2- at the time was absolutely related to their stylish, far from realistic (meaning, less time spent on) graphics.  Part of their success was they focused on technology that worked on most computers with a 3D card.  You didn't have to buy a new computer to play WoW.

ROFLMAO!!!

Blizzard chose the best graphics they could and built the game to the PC spec they expected to be current when they delivered.  It was delivered late so the graphics and PC spec where behind the current spec's.  As it turned out this was a good thing, but it was not intended.  This was known in the industry at the time and I am sure it is documented somewhere.

(The delay allowed SOE to get Everquest II fast tracked and delivered a couple of weeks ahead of WoW, intended to be a spoiler it failed to kill WoW at the time.)

Besides 2001-2002 was a different era, less competition and a fairly new genre.

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

This is the thinking that leads to the continued cycle of overspending on graphics.

And, as such a professed professional, you should know that the cycle begins and ends with the consumer. If the consumers would accept less than the platform's latest tech for a 3D game from a AAA developer, don't you think the devs would spend far less on that and focus on the other things that would sell, especially when the latest tech greatly increases the cost in both money and time?

What you seem to have is False Authority Syndrome - the belief that your knowledge in one area of expertise qualifies you as a professional in all aspects of the field.

Originally posted by Warley

And, it is true that -at first- an MMORPG may not sell as well if it's graphics seem to be subpar compared to other MMORPG's on the market.  However, gameplay WILL MAKE UP FOR THIS.  It's been proven over and over again that an MMORPG with great gameplay can help a game grow.  For example, Eve.  You may not like it, I didn't like it, but it's growing.  It's graphics weren't spectacular, but it's gameplay pushed it in that direction.

EVE's graphics at release were far beyond most MMOs. They were amazing for the time that EVE came out.

Or, what about League of Legends?  The most popular game on the planet also have graphics that are mid 2000's or earlier quality.  Think about that for a moment.  Yet, again, it's the most popular online game on the planet (besides poker or apps like Angry Birds).  Can you explain this away?

Graphics expectations are dependent on genre and platform. There's nothing to explain away. For an iso, 2.5d or top-down game their graphics are exceptional.

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by botrytis

An we should care what you think because? What do you do in the industry that makes you such an expert?

 

Well, for starters, I've been in the MMORPG scene since early 1997 in a little known MMORPG, NWN (which is sometimes referred to as the first MMORPG).  I've played nearly every major MMORPG that has been released since 1997.  I'm also a Web Developer that has worked on a few browser-based games and I'm currently designing a Web based MMORPG that will utilize Unity3D as the graphics engine. 

I have extensive, professional experience with C#, Java, PHP, MySQL, HTML, and several game engines including Hero Engine, Unity3D, and Truevision3D.  I've worked with industry professionals and I've worked on released games.  How about you?

Then you should realise that if you are an AAA developer then the graphics, voice overs etc are part of the package that is the minimum that has to be delivered or your product will not be regarded by anyone as AAA but rather and Indie effort from a AAA developer.   Or in other words a shoddy product.

Indie developers can deliver with out the latest graphics and professional voice overs because we know they are working with limited funding.  AAA developers can not.

When World of Warcraft launched it's graphics were actually dated for the time. They made up for this with great environments and a boat load more content then any other MMORPG at the time.  Their ability to provide more content than other MMORPG's -especially EQ 2- at the time was absolutely related to their stylish, far from realistic (meaning, less time spent on) graphics.  Part of their success was they focused on technology that worked on most computers with a 3D card.  You didn't have to buy a new computer to play WoW.

ROFLMAO!!!

Blizzard chose the best graphics they could and built the game to the PC spec they expected to be current when they delivered.  It was delivered late so the graphics and PC spec where behind the current spec's.  As it turned out this was a good thing, but it was not intended.  This was known in the industry at the time and I am sure it is documented somewhere.

(The delay allowed SOE to get Everquest II fast tracked and delivered a couple of weeks ahead of WoW, intended to be a spoiler it failed to kill WoW at the time.)

Besides 2001-2002 was a different era, less competition and a fairly new genre.

Slow down there buddy.  You may not have realized it before you are supporting my point here.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Warley

And, it is true that -at first- an MMORPG may not sell as well if it's graphics seem to be subpar compared to other MMORPG's on the market.  However, gameplay WILL MAKE UP FOR THIS.  It's been proven over and over again that an MMORPG with great gameplay can help a game grow.  For example, Eve.  You may not like it, I didn't like it, but it's growing.  It's graphics weren't spectacular, but it's gameplay pushed it in that direction.

EVE's graphics at release were far beyond most MMOs. They were amazing for the time that EVE came out.

Or, what about League of Legends?  The most popular game on the planet also have graphics that are mid 2000's or earlier quality.  Think about that for a moment.  Yet, again, it's the most popular online game on the planet (besides poker or apps like Angry Birds).  Can you explain this away?

Graphics expectations are dependent on genre and platform. There's nothing to explain away. For an iso, 2.5d or top-down game their graphics are exceptional.

Their graphics worked because were stylized, but they were definitely heavily dated by then.  You see, the point I made here is still proven to be true: a game with dated graphics can be popular and successful if the gameplay is fun.

Originally posted by Warley

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Warley

And, it is true that -at first- an MMORPG may not sell as well if it's graphics seem to be subpar compared to other MMORPG's on the market.  However, gameplay WILL MAKE UP FOR THIS.  It's been proven over and over again that an MMORPG with great gameplay can help a game grow.  For example, Eve.  You may not like it, I didn't like it, but it's growing.  It's graphics weren't spectacular, but it's gameplay pushed it in that direction.

EVE's graphics at release were far beyond most MMOs. They were amazing for the time that EVE came out.

Or, what about League of Legends?  The most popular game on the planet also have graphics that are mid 2000's or earlier quality.  Think about that for a moment.  Yet, again, it's the most popular online game on the planet (besides poker or apps like Angry Birds).  Can you explain this away?

Graphics expectations are dependent on genre and platform. There's nothing to explain away. For an iso, 2.5d or top-down game their graphics are exceptional.

Their graphics worked because were stylized, but they were definitely heavily dated by then.  You see, the point I made here is still proven to be true: a game with dated graphics can be popular and successful if the gameplay is fun.

If your point was that a MOBA can do well with an iso view, then yes it's true. Unfortunately, that's common knowledge and it really wasn't your point.

I think that cross server games and games where you can queue yourself and get artificialy made groups are breaking the soul and the essense of MMOs thats what was so nice with darkfall. One character, one server, one community. No server transfer no name change.... 1 class that you can build ( design wasnt perfect there but still  was a good idea) this made me live the real deal. You could make a name for yourself and you were responsible of your actions. So if you were a good person in the long run it was rewarding. But if you wanted you could be the bad guy everyone love hating. Not just some trolls with imature attitude not caring about each other since you willl probably never meet them again.

Huge and almost instances free world to explore. Amazing weather effect and graphics style are a must now a day. Its always nice to add a feel to a game. I love games with a 24 hours perdiod where sometimes its the sunset sometimes its the night.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
having the same rant, flogging the same dead horse, uh?

Doing the same trolling, Annoying the same people , uh?

O

Well dammit I am an expert, I have not played games all these years just to be a gamer! :)

I do think if you have been in the gaming scene longer that gives more weight to what you have to say. It may also make you less represenative of what younger players think. This is the same standard as in the gaming industry, if you worked on Ultima Online and are now working on a new MMO I am going to want to hear what you have to say more than a guy who has worked on one MMO which launched last year.