Originally posted by 3-4thElf

The PVP is going to be stuctured. The raids at end game will be repeatable. There will not be Game Master supported events monthly. Paying a monthly fee to wait for content updates every 6 months at best doesn't work out.

They will not pull away the drones who support World of Warcraft with that type of model to support subscriptions.

If it launches sub, it'll go B2P or F2P in less than a year. 

Why say this? It's not even a prediction. History proves it.

History proves what? For all you know the game will herald a new era and hit 20 million players in the first 3 months.

Citing some kind of vague comparison like "omg look at SWTOR" is not even remotely proof. That was a garbage game, end of.

The only two games which uphold their subscription model well right now are Rift and WoW. Both provide regular content updates. New zones, raids, items, dungeons and class balances. WoW launched Mists of Pandaria less than 6 months ago and has already had dozens of new items, new raids and is very close to adding a huge mini-expansion with the Throne of Thunder.

Rift consistently adds dungeons, items and raids - so much so the community can sometimes not keep up.

These games are both examples of why a sub model can work well.

Now if you look at some F2P or B2P counterparts.. well, last time I logged into GW2 it looked like next to nothing had changed since last September. No new zones, ONE new dungeon, some kind of sad attempt at a gear progression with the new tier of gear.. but not a lot else. All that in 6 months? Pathetic.

I played wow quite  a while ago.  They don't have quick update.

But maybe they get intimadated by other games and have been picking it up.  Maybe they saw Rift been pumping out update and they do the same.

I do hope TESO is going to be really good.  But I don't know why people think it is really good when they know nothing about it.

And I'm willing to bet all my life saving TESO won't hit 20 million in the first 3 month.  Maybe if it is f2p, released in china, and have chinese translated version it will.  But that's not likely.

And p2p have quite slow update too, that's why I left age of conan.  But I think times have changed, game company knows they have to keep pumping out of content to keep people subing.

Originally posted by SuperNick

 

The only two games which uphold their subscription model well right now are Rift and WoW. Both provide regular content updates. New zones, raids, items, dungeons and class balances. WoW launched Mists of Pandaria less than 6 months ago and has already had dozens of new items, new raids and is very close to adding a huge mini-expansion with the Throne of Thunder.

That's kind of the thing.  The "only" two games which upload thier sub model well.

How do you know Teso is going to do the same?

Originally posted by SuperNick

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

The PVP is going to be stuctured. The raids at end game will be repeatable. There will not be Game Master supported events monthly. Paying a monthly fee to wait for content updates every 6 months at best doesn't work out.

They will not pull away the drones who support World of Warcraft with that type of model to support subscriptions.

If it launches sub, it'll go B2P or F2P in less than a year. 

Why say this? It's not even a prediction. History proves it.

History proves what? For all you know the game will herald a new era and hit 20 million players in the first 3 months.

Citing some kind of vague comparison like "omg look at SWTOR" is not even remotely proof. That was a garbage game, end of.

The only two games which uphold their subscription model well right now are Rift and WoW. Both provide regular content updates. New zones, raids, items, dungeons and class balances. WoW launched Mists of Pandaria less than 6 months ago and has already had dozens of new items, new raids and is very close to adding a huge mini-expansion with the Throne of Thunder.

Rift consistently adds dungeons, items and raids - so much so the community can sometimes not keep up.

These games are both examples of why a sub model can work well.

Now if you look at some F2P or B2P counterparts.. well, last time I logged into GW2 it looked like next to nothing had changed since last September. No new zones, ONE new dungeon, some kind of sad attempt at a gear progression with the new tier of gear.. but not a lot else. All that in 6 months? Pathetic.

Wanna bet? TESO isn't doing anything but slapping the Elder Scrolls name on another Secret World / SWTOR sort of deal. Very minor innovation, same ol' 2004 progression system.

RIFT didn't have the budget that TESO had behind it. They're okay with 100k subs, that's profitable for them. TESO will not have the same luck. 

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by SuperNick

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

The PVP is going to be stuctured. The raids at end game will be repeatable. There will not be Game Master supported events monthly. Paying a monthly fee to wait for content updates every 6 months at best doesn't work out.

They will not pull away the drones who support World of Warcraft with that type of model to support subscriptions.

If it launches sub, it'll go B2P or F2P in less than a year. 

Why say this? It's not even a prediction. History proves it.

History proves what? For all you know the game will herald a new era and hit 20 million players in the first 3 months.

Citing some kind of vague comparison like "omg look at SWTOR" is not even remotely proof. That was a garbage game, end of.

The only two games which uphold their subscription model well right now are Rift and WoW. Both provide regular content updates. New zones, raids, items, dungeons and class balances. WoW launched Mists of Pandaria less than 6 months ago and has already had dozens of new items, new raids and is very close to adding a huge mini-expansion with the Throne of Thunder.

Rift consistently adds dungeons, items and raids - so much so the community can sometimes not keep up.

These games are both examples of why a sub model can work well.

Now if you look at some F2P or B2P counterparts.. well, last time I logged into GW2 it looked like next to nothing had changed since last September. No new zones, ONE new dungeon, some kind of sad attempt at a gear progression with the new tier of gear.. but not a lot else. All that in 6 months? Pathetic.

Wanna bet? TESO isn't doing anything but slapping the Elder Scrolls name on another Secret World / SWTOR sort of deal. Very minor innovation, same ol' 2004 progression system.

RIFT didn't have the budget that TESO had behind it. They're okay with 100k subs, that's profitable for them. TESO will not have the same luck. 

I'm just wondering where the other 150k subscribers went from Rift last time I played yesterday. Even if TESO is a copy/paste of MMORPG standards it's going to be wildly successfull off brand name alone. Don't get me wrong I hope it is unique.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Even if TESO is a copy/paste of MMORPG standards it's going to be wildly successfull off brand name alone. Don't get me wrong I hope it is unique.

 it is?

SWG, which was Star Wars BTW, never topped 400k.

LoTRo...

Warhammer...

DCO...it has Batman and Superman, two of the most recognized IPs on planet earth.

AoC...Conan is a massive IP.

Big name does not = success and there is enough hate for this game on the offical Skyrim and Oblivion forums, not to mention the biggest mod sites that there is a good chance this game wont be a success with anything other than a B2P or F2P model thanks to their making this game to target DaoC fans and not fans of the IP itself, sure SOME fans are going to want it, others are going to look at the massive limitations being placed on the game with old outdated MMO ideas and pass, because its TES in name only. Most TES fans want an OPEN WORLD with no faction/race limitations and sure as hell dont want themepark based PvP limited to ZONES...they sure as hell dont want what is sure to be a peen fest with the ability to elect an emperor to the winning PvP faction.

All hail Legolaaassz Shootnurface of LoLz guild!

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Even if TESO is a copy/paste of MMORPG standards it's going to be wildly successfull off brand name alone. Don't get me wrong I hope it is unique.

 it is?

SWG, which was Star Wars BTW, never topped 400k.

LoTRo...

Warhammer...

DCO...it has Batman and Superman, two of the most recognized IPs on planet earth.

AoC...Conan is a massive IP.

Big name does not = success and there is enough hate for this game on the offical Skyrim and Oblivion forums, not to mention the biggest mod sites that there is a good chance this game wont be a success with anything other than a B2P or F2P model thanks to their making this game to target DaoC fans and not fans of the IP itself, sure SOME fans are going to want it, others are going to look at the massive limitations being placed on the game with old outdated MMO ideas and pass, because its TES in name only. Most TES fans want an OPEN WORLD with no faction/race limitations and sure as hell dont want themepark based PvP limited to ZONES...they sure as hell dont want what is sure to be a peen fest with the ability to elect an emperor to the winning PvP faction.

All hail Legolaaassz Shootnurface of LoLz guild!

Which i tend to agree with, Zenimax used the wrong IP to try and create another DAoC clone, and given how large the TES modding community etc is, the word of mouth thing is going to be a very large factor against ESO's success. They are in effect, setting themselves up to fail, and fail hard. The fact that they are also not listening to the TES community itself will negate any positive spin Zenimax even tries to come up with in the future

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by SuperNick

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

The PVP is going to be stuctured. The raids at end game will be repeatable. There will not be Game Master supported events monthly. Paying a monthly fee to wait for content updates every 6 months at best doesn't work out.

They will not pull away the drones who support World of Warcraft with that type of model to support subscriptions.

If it launches sub, it'll go B2P or F2P in less than a year. 

Why say this? It's not even a prediction. History proves it.

History proves what? For all you know the game will herald a new era and hit 20 million players in the first 3 months.

Citing some kind of vague comparison like "omg look at SWTOR" is not even remotely proof. That was a garbage game, end of.

The only two games which uphold their subscription model well right now are Rift and WoW. Both provide regular content updates. New zones, raids, items, dungeons and class balances. WoW launched Mists of Pandaria less than 6 months ago and has already had dozens of new items, new raids and is very close to adding a huge mini-expansion with the Throne of Thunder.

Rift consistently adds dungeons, items and raids - so much so the community can sometimes not keep up.

These games are both examples of why a sub model can work well.

Now if you look at some F2P or B2P counterparts.. well, last time I logged into GW2 it looked like next to nothing had changed since last September. No new zones, ONE new dungeon, some kind of sad attempt at a gear progression with the new tier of gear.. but not a lot else. All that in 6 months? Pathetic.

Wanna bet? TESO isn't doing anything but slapping the Elder Scrolls name on another Secret World / SWTOR sort of deal. Very minor innovation, same ol' 2004 progression system.

RIFT didn't have the budget that TESO had behind it. They're okay with 100k subs, that's profitable for them. TESO will not have the same luck. 

I'm just wondering where the other 150k subscribers went from Rift last time I played yesterday. Even if TESO is a copy/paste of MMORPG standards it's going to be wildly successfull off brand name alone. Don't get me wrong I hope it is unique.

250k is their number, I'm just saying 100k is profitable for them. They could have half a mil. 

TESO will need double that just to be considered a minor success. If news broke after a year that they didn't have half a million subscriptions then it's right to B2P for them. THUS history repeating itself from the latest themeparks.

So they should save time and just launch GW2 style.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by SuperNick

 

RIFT didn't have the budget that TESO had behind it. They're okay with 100k subs, that's profitable for them. TESO will not have the same luck. 

What I wonder is where they going to get their sub from.  The mmorpg genre isn't even that big.

So they have to steal sub from many other mmorpg. 

Also, developer this days try to hide their financial and sub numbers.  Even their funding is a bit off base.  Just because TESO got many funding dont' mean they going to spend all that money, or all that money right now.

And I dont' think anyone know the budget of TESO, just like no one knows the budget of GW2.  So everytime people tell me GW2 or TESO is such high budget blah blah, I just say they dont' know a thing. 

No one knows the budget for TESO, except Bethesda.  Only thing people do know is their online division got a large funding.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Even if TESO is a copy/paste of MMORPG standards it's going to be wildly successfull off brand name alone. Don't get me wrong I hope it is unique.

 it is?

SWG, which was Star Wars BTW, never topped 400k.

LoTRo...

Warhammer...

DCO...it has Batman and Superman, two of the most recognized IPs on planet earth.

AoC...Conan is a massive IP.

Big name does not = success and there is enough hate for this game on the offical Skyrim and Oblivion forums, not to mention the biggest mod sites that there is a good chance this game wont be a success with anything other than a B2P or F2P model thanks to their making this game to target DaoC fans and not fans of the IP itself, sure SOME fans are going to want it, others are going to look at the massive limitations being placed on the game with old outdated MMO ideas and pass, because its TES in name only. Most TES fans want an OPEN WORLD with no faction/race limitations and sure as hell dont want themepark based PvP limited to ZONES...they sure as hell dont want what is sure to be a peen fest with the ability to elect an emperor to the winning PvP faction.

All hail Legolaaassz Shootnurface of LoLz guild!

It's too late to get the DAoC fans now, Camelot Unchained have been announced.

Currently what I see with ESO is exactly the same thing that happened with SWTOR. From design to marketing. The only difference seems to be that SWTOR went for innovative, to soft-trinity to hard-trinity in the span of a year (this is what happen when you only take pro-raiding guilds for beta testing).

ESO recieve backlash when it was announced wish forced Zenimax to move more toward the single player Elder Scrolls games. Basically, I suspect they rewrote their entire gameplay system in the last year. The problem though is that to have excellent change of being accepted to their beta you have to enter a guild name...

Finally, if ESO is a subscription based game I expect it to move toward F2P at the same speed as TSW and SWTOR did: aka under a year.

F2P or B2P

I never want to pay a monthly sub for a game again, I am more than willing to support with cash shop items.  Everyone should get the same basic content.

I vote for b2p box + a la card sub, means you can open or use some features you like for time you payed for, or even one time payment (if it easier to manage), well any model where you can keep access to your account even when you don't pay sub.

I don't think free to download would be correct for such nice looking (hope enjoyable to play too) game.

I don't like pure sub model only because it limit your account access time you can't pay sub, so would be an issue for me (I don't mind if I can just log on but not really play).

I don't mind Item Shop for cosmetic in game items or even special items (non needed but great looking mounts, pets etc), or souvenir shop, but I prefer to have it outside a game (GW1, WoW, Atlantica).

I prefer not to get my game ruined by "buy might" or push you to Item Shop issue.

All this is IMO for sure.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by Aeonblades
P2P Subscription. It's the best way to avoid 75% of MMO asshats.

Have you played wow?

Yea, At first I was thinking closer to 50%, but my optimism got the best of me. Just can't stand the attitude of most F2P game jumpers.

Yeah, I got the best community experience with P2P games like DAoC, WoW Classic to Burning Crusade or Warhammer Online.

Originally posted by boxsnd

I'm surprized so many want sub. Personally, I would go B2P with a cash shop. It's one of the few things GW2 got right.

Going P2P in 2013 is a huge risk, either you win it all (WoW) or you lose it all (almost everyone else).

B2P on the other hand can make even average games like GW2 financially successful, and give them time to improve even after launch.

Most companies don't support their games well with the F2P model and would likely do the same for a B2P model, ANet is probably going to be the only exception.  P2P puts a greater pressure on the developers to keep things fixed and updated as much as possible.

Gw2 use kind of a weird model.

I felt GW2 is designed exactly like those pay 2 win asian f2p games.  Except in those f2p asian games people buy power, in GW2 people buy expensive cosmetic items.

If you think buying expensive cosmetic skins is pay 2 win that's your opinion.  But I think most people dont' agree with that.

Originally posted by Rthuth434

lmao @ Rift...come out shit talking the competition yet never reveal how well your own game did. from 100 servers down to 8 in  a year...with all this lauded content, lol. and the 8 us servers open now only 4 get past medium at peak times...they could chop it down to 5 servers and be fine...right on the heels of an expansion. rofl.

 

EoN was soo bad in beta they shelved it...lmao @ TRION. i guess the way to do P2P in the F2P age is to talk a lot of shit and have nothing to show for it?

Rift had 100 servers in February of 2012? Where did you find that info?

And with your opinion of the game, I'm surprised you still have intimate knowledge of the server stats. What keeps you logging in regularly and paying for a subscription if you think it is such a wasteland?

No offense, the guy did seem a bit self-deluded; but talk about the other end of the spectrum.......

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Rthuth434

lmao @ Rift...come out shit talking the competition yet never reveal how well your own game did. from 100 servers down to 8 in  a year...with all this lauded content, lol. and the 8 us servers open now only 4 get past medium at peak times...they could chop it down to 5 servers and be fine...right on the heels of an expansion. rofl.

 

EoN was soo bad in beta they shelved it...lmao @ TRION. i guess the way to do P2P in the F2P age is to talk a lot of shit and have nothing to show for it?

Rift had 100 servers in February of 2012? Where did you find that info?

And with your opinion of the game, I'm surprised you still have intimate knowledge of the server stats. What keeps you logging in regularly and paying for a subscription if you think it is such a wasteland?

No offense, the guy did seem a bit self-deluded; but talk about the other end of the spectrum.......

But he does have a point. 

Just because all of you demanded a subscription model and willing to pay 15$ a month don't mean you guys going to play that long.

Maybe best model is for TESO to sell box first and go with sub model.  And see how things go on the way.  Just like you know... many of those p2p games turning f2p.  Maybe TESO will do so well that they dont' need to turn into f2p.  But who knows?

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Rthuth434

lmao @ Rift...come out shit talking the competition yet never reveal how well your own game did. from 100 servers down to 8 in  a year...with all this lauded content, lol. and the 8 us servers open now only 4 get past medium at peak times...they could chop it down to 5 servers and be fine...right on the heels of an expansion. rofl.

 

EoN was soo bad in beta they shelved it...lmao @ TRION. i guess the way to do P2P in the F2P age is to talk a lot of shit and have nothing to show for it?

Rift had 100 servers in February of 2012? Where did you find that info?

And with your opinion of the game, I'm surprised you still have intimate knowledge of the server stats. What keeps you logging in regularly and paying for a subscription if you think it is such a wasteland?

No offense, the guy did seem a bit self-deluded; but talk about the other end of the spectrum.......

But he does have a point. 

Just because all of you demanded a subscription model and willing to pay 15$ a month don't mean you guys going to play that long.

Maybe best model is for TESO to sell box first and go with sub model.  And see how things go on the way.  Just like you know... many of those p2p games turning f2p.  Maybe TESO will do so well that they dont' need to turn into f2p.  But who knows?

Well, I should have stayed more on topic.

My preferred model is buy a box and have a sub option, as long as with the sub option you don't need the cash shop for anything. Whether they have a f2p option is a fact of modern mmo life I've made my peace with. 

Because as you pointed out; people are not sticking with games long enough for them to survive on a sub only model anymore. 

The people have spoken with their wallets. If a game strikes a chord with enough people for long enough, they will pay a sub for years. But these days, that is the exception to the rule, either due to oversaturation of the market, games not as good as they once were, or a combination of factors, but whatever the cause; f2p games are staying alive, sub games are dying.