Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

Maybe grimal it's the way you play. I have not played SWTOR so I can only give you an example from something I have played thats AoC. Just as your saying you can in AoC level in world content and get to max and you have NO option option of getting the best gear available without raiding. You can say you don't need the best gear in the game but to really experience the game you need to. In order to be competative in PvP ( at least at the time I played) the raid gear was pretty much required. Sure you could PvP without it at a big disadvantage. Further there were raid dungeon tiers so inorder to get from one set of dungeons to the next the previous dungeons gear was required (partial gear was possible). Everything the developers did funnelled you toward the dungeons. New releases, new tiers of dungeons or new content that requires dungeon gear. So in response to these dungeon funnelled games people build systems hence the DKP system where your time invested in your group gains you rewards. 

Guild Wars two avoids this there isn't a DKP system needed. You can simply do world content and have the best armor in the game. Maybe, if I'm reading what you say correctly, because you only do world content in games it doesn't feel any different to you. But for many of us the whole layout of the system is very different. I can be competative in any aspect of the game so I can do any content I want at any time. I don't have to wait for enough DKP points to buy that armor set that will get me into the next teir of dungeon so I can get to the next 3 tiers so that I can PvP without falling over like a paper doll. That is an example of what people are calling forced. Again from how you talk it may not be your experience but many have had it. 

I think you're right in that I am playing the games differently because the idea of raiding or doing repetitive grinding is not something I desire.  I typically play the game through to max level for a character and then leave that character as I consider it done.  Never been into the modern notion of MMO endgame.

Thanks for pointing that out.

So in the end, the argument would be that for GW2 endgame, you are not forced to grind as defined by traditional MMOs.  But as for the rest of the game, it's much like a traditional MMO with some slight variations, of course.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

This all stems from the original claim that GW2 is unique in that you are not forced to do anything you don't want.

I am saying this isn't true; many MMORPGs are like this.

Unless anyone is pointing a gun at your head all the games don't force you doing anything and even then you have the choice to just take bullet in your head and die.,

Now that we got the idiotic out of the way, many games force one to do something. If you don't like the word force you can use the word REQUIREMENT, a very common word in the RPG and MMORPG , but even RTS and FPS require you to succesfuly compete the previous level/mission to do the next.

GW2 only requirement is your level for PvE. There is no gear check that is so common in MMORPGs and basically is another leveling system that funnels the players in certain activities to be able to do the tiers.

Again no one forces you to do those things, but to do those things you have certain requirements that generally involve doing other activities.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you don't like the dungeons don't do em, you certainly don't need to do them. your contradicting yourself, you either hate dungeons or you want to do them. Sometimes I fancy pvp in gw2 sometimes I fancy wvw sometimes I explore for puzzles, sometimes I do the daily, sometimes I do dungeons - none of em depend on each other.

Reread what was being said.  Someone claimed to experience everything in other MMOs, you need to grind.  (I'm paraphrasing here).  So I said if you want to experience that same everything in GW2 you need to do dungeons.

 

Doing a dungeon is different from grinding a dungeon.

The difference is in some games you need to grind to do the content. In GW2 you do the content and then grind if you want.

Don't you need to grind the dungeons in GW2 to learn how to run through it? A lot of people complained at how difficult they were until learning how to play one through repeated attempts.

Anyways, what I am forbidden from doing in a game like SWTOR without grinding a dungeon?

Why SWTOR  and dungeons in particular?

And why would I need to run a dungeon multiple times to learn how to do it? Didn't I already finished the dungeon? And if I do a dungeon multiple times to learn how to play it, is that grind or is that gameplay?

This all stems from the original claim that GW2 is unique in that you are not forced to do anything you don't want.

I am saying this isn't true; many MMORPGs are like this.

Unless anyone is pointing a gun at your head all the games don't force you doing anything and even then you have the choice to just take bullet in your head and die.,

Now that we got the idiotic out of the way, many games force one to do something. If you don't like the word force you can use the word REQUIREMENT, a very common word in the RPG and MMORPG , but even RTS and FPS require you to succesfuly compete the previous level/mission to do the next.

GW2 only requirement is your level for PvE. There is no gear check that is so common in MMORPGs and basically is another leveling system that funnels the players in certain activities to be able to do the tiers.

Again no one forces you to do those things, but to do those things you have certain requirements that generally involve doing other activities.

 

Required is a much better word, thank you.

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Shhhhhhhhhh let it go hahahaha, oh my goodness, just let it be despite being right.

Least grimal admitted to being wrong(Much respect not joking) which is hard to do on the internet, most just stop showing up after awhile, there was this one guy can't remember his name but he was committed to GW2 being P2W, the same with this other guy his named started with a B, he claimed they sold power and etc, once that was wrong they dissappeared, though they could of made a different accoun or something.

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Ok, sure.  Problem is, it delivered for lots of people, including myself.  *shrug*

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

I'm not going to report anyone for an opinion.  He seems to think everyone was disappointed in GW2, which is more of a non-fact.  There's no sense being rude about it though.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

I'm not going to report anyone for an opinion.  He seems to think everyone was disappointed in GW2, which is more of a non-fact.  There's no sense being rude about it though.

You would be surprised what others would do. And I agree, no need to be rude. Sometimes I get hot headed and I know this, but most of the time it's just a better idea to be nice about it and just say you didn't enjoy it, ya know?

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

I'm not going to report anyone for an opinion.  He seems to think everyone was disappointed in GW2, which is more of a non-fact.  There's no sense being rude about it though.

You would be surprised what others would do. And I agree, no need to be rude. Sometimes I get hot headed and I know this, but most of the time it's just a better idea to be nice about it and just say you didn't enjoy it, ya know?

Yep.  I'm guilty of the same thing sometimes and have been warned/banned for it, but I learned my lesson... basically.  :p  In the end they're just games, so I try to keep that in mind. 

Originally posted by Rider071

So, no, on many levels. You call yourselves 'heroes' for playing this game, I call you something else.

But I would reccommend it for the person getting their feet wet in MMOs, it's a decent investment, but it's not something I would reccommend an MMO vet unless I wanted that person really angry at me for a while.

No, we just call ourselves video gamers. I know many an "MMO Vet" that love the game, in fact one of those said  "Vets" were angry with me for not badering them into playing sooner.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Dinasty

Originally posted by Eir_S
I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.

You don't see this because so many people quit after finding out how bad the game really is.

The Hype train left the station and never delivered at the next stop.

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

Oh geez lol, but yea it actually would help, you know that is the best way to go about it in any forum with any game, I actually take what's highlighted in red more serious than what's highlighted in green, because in green it sounds very desperate you know? But in red it's like "Okay seriousely this game isn't my type, it was bad to me, maybe not for you, so I'm just going to move on in life."'

Also same goes for those who gush about a game as well, I'm not going to lie I gush over TSW and GW2 in general forums before but they did ask about opinions or something in that regards.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Don't bother, you won't convince these people they have been ripped off and you are probably going to get reported for harrassment because talking down about GW2 will get you a warning/ban on these forums. Best just say it wasn't your cup o tea and move on, it will work out better for everyone :)

Too bad you didn't stick to the last sentence of your post, which is quite reasonable.

The first part though is pretty arrogant and limit of being insulting. And not because of "talking down about GW2", as you say, but because of insulting those who happen to enjoy the game. The "if you like that game, you are too stupid to realize you've been ripped off" non-argument is so old it's not even making me laugh anymore.

Tell me, do you also go to your local Pub, and tell customers you don't know, and who just finished they pint with a big smile on their face, that they have been ripped off and they obviously can't enjoy the drink they had since you, owner of the ultimate truth, think it's crap? If not, and if you have the courage to tell such nonsense when not hidden behind a computer screen, I invite you to try it. I'm not responsible of the negative consequences that will inevitably occur to you though.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

You would be surprised what others would do. And I agree, no need to be rude. Sometimes I get hot headed and I know this, but most of the time it's just a better idea to be nice about it and just say you didn't enjoy it, ya know?

I guess your tried to lead by the example in your previous post then?

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Shhhhhhhhhh let it go hahahaha, oh my goodness, just let it be despite being right.

 

Least grimal admitted to being wrong(Much respect not joking) which is hard to do on the internet, most just stop showing up after awhile, there was this one guy can't remember his name but he was committed to GW2 being P2W, the same with this other guy his named started with a B, he claimed they sold power and etc, once that was wrong they dissappeared, though they could of made a different accoun or something.

How was I wrong?

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Shhhhhhhhhh let it go hahahaha, oh my goodness, just let it be despite being right.

 

Least grimal admitted to being wrong(Much respect not joking) which is hard to do on the internet, most just stop showing up after awhile, there was this one guy can't remember his name but he was committed to GW2 being P2W, the same with this other guy his named started with a B, he claimed they sold power and etc, once that was wrong they dissappeared, though they could of made a different accoun or something.

How was I wrong?

Oh my...just don't worry about it. 

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Shhhhhhhhhh let it go hahahaha, oh my goodness, just let it be despite being right.

 

Least grimal admitted to being wrong(Much respect not joking) which is hard to do on the internet, most just stop showing up after awhile, there was this one guy can't remember his name but he was committed to GW2 being P2W, the same with this other guy his named started with a B, he claimed they sold power and etc, once that was wrong they dissappeared, though they could of made a different accoun or something.

How was I wrong?

Oh my...just don't worry about it. 

None at all :)

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by Rider071

 

 

You sound like the typical player who thinks there's no viable MMORPG model beside the EQ/WoW clone one. Well, good news for you, there's a ton of those games on the market right now, your choice is huge. For the people like me, who know more than just that model, and who enjoy(ed) games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, the choice is very limited. The question is, what the hell are you doing here looking for another EQ/WoW clone in a game that would be more like an Asheron's Call clone? It's liking buying carrots and trying to turn them into potatoes just because the two are vegetables... it doesn't make sense.

First time I've ever seen anyone compare GW2 to games such as UO and AC1, in fact, I would think most fans of those two titles would eschew the mechanics GW2  brought to the genre.

I NEVER said GW2 was close to UO. If, instead of selectively selecting one sentence and highlighting it, you would use the whole post, you would notice that I said two things here.

1) For those who enjoyed UO and AC1, there's little choice of MMORPG nowadays. Note that I didn't say both games where similar, actually UO and AC1 are very different games.

I mis-understood your point, and I agree, for people who favored the designs employed for many of the older MMO's there's been little choice since around 2004 or so.

2) GW2 is "more like an Asheron's Call clone".  And I mean AC1 of course. Actually, GW2 is closer to AC1 than AC2 was. Massive world, exploration encouraged, no forced grouping, no trinity, no need to farm raids to get the best gear, player skill meaning more than levels, action based combat with player dodging, monthly patches, and now ongoing story too. And if you think AC1 fans, which I'm being part of for playing the game for over 5 years, would "eschew" the GW2 mechanics, then I actually wonder if you have played AC1 at all.

No need to wonder, never played AC1, I was busy with Lineage 1/ DAOC and Shadowbane back in those days. What little I know comes from these forums, and there's a lot of love for the Darktide server and it's FFA PVP model and the game as I understand it has a huge progression in terms of levels (up into the 250's?)  I realize its been said the difference in levels isn't as great as in some other games so apparently a pack of level 70's could drop a high level player, but don't know much else behind that.  Both of these concepts seem quite different from what GW2 offers so therin lies my error.

I've reread my post twice, my English, for once, was decently good, and what I said is easily understandable. But yeah, selective reading is so much more fun...

Your English is great, but your sarcasm, hostility and defensiveness are sometimes off the chart, hence it's challenging to reply to you in a reasonable manner.  I tried my best, but apparently failed to succeed. (I'll take the blame for my lack of comprehension)

Too bad, because the rest of your post is decently interesting and I could mostly agree with it. But sorry, I won't let you make me say things I never said :-)

And what I was really trying to do is get the thread back on topic, and off the discussion about socialization mechanics  in modern MMORPGs.

You missed your cue.

Edit: ah, you're French, that explains things, I am too, though several generations in the States now.  We're bound to clash.

This game was always going to hinge on how well they developed POST launch. The reason people are abandoning this game and they've been forced to reduce their staff and potentially look at server merges is because their post-launch content updates have been very bad.

It's been out for over 6 months now and it has basically had nothing done to it. You're still left with a repetitive WvW mode, you still have the same limited structured PvP zones, you still have 2 endgame zones which were crap to begin with and you still have a dungeon system that is more frustrating than enjoyable.

The levelling experience was great but beyond that this game has made no advancements.

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

There's no difference between required and forced in this specific context.

If in order to get to the next step, you are required to do something else first, then you are indeed forced to do it to get to the next step. It's either that, or stop playing. Both have the same effect, therefore trying to argue on a supposed difference is just arguing for the sake of arguing... and as I said above, avoid having to admit being wrong, of course ;-)

Shhhhhhhhhh let it go hahahaha, oh my goodness, just let it be despite being right.

 

Least grimal admitted to being wrong(Much respect not joking) which is hard to do on the internet, most just stop showing up after awhile, there was this one guy can't remember his name but he was committed to GW2 being P2W, the same with this other guy his named started with a B, he claimed they sold power and etc, once that was wrong they dissappeared, though they could of made a different accoun or something.

How was I wrong?

Oh my...just don't worry about it. 

Sold power? Was that what we were talking about? I think we were talking about how Mystic Chest boost were active in WvW. That was changed in between betas correct? I was wrong after the change, and even stated as such just because.

I've never went anywhere. WB btw.