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General Discussion  » NCSoft Earning call conference: GW2 xpac and China release in 2013

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  User Deleted
2/07/13 5:18:34 PM#41
Originally posted by Ramonski7

The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

 

And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

 

This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

 

You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

Well, estimates i heard is that China accounts for 10% of WoW income with more people playing than in West.
And they pay by the hour, theres no sub there.

But what IS good for Blizzard is marketing purpose, as they can still (falsley) claim they have "10m" subs. By the way they count subs, any F2P can also claim it has "subs"

Anyway, what model NCSoft will use is China is up to them, and they do have experience with the market so i guess they might knw what they are doing :)

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2693

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

2/07/13 5:18:51 PM#42
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7

The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

 

And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

 

This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

 

You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

It is easy.

Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

 

All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2589

 
OP  2/08/13 2:31:30 AM#43
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7

The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

 

And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

 

This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

 

You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

It is easy.

Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

 

All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.

Have you played GW2?

For you to create an account you need a serial key.

No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

 

What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

 

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

2/08/13 2:45:37 AM#44
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Karteli

GW2 wasn't that great for an interactive MMORPG.  It had all the qualifications, but really lacked the social side.

 only for those that need a game to make them social...social people have no issues at all and my servers chat proves it every time I am logged in.

But as you said, it brought in two kinds of players...to bad you got the catagories wrong.

I never understood this need for people to require game "to make them social"

I never had any problem being social in games they proclaim as "solo online MMOs"

Really start to surface its not games fault but those people fault.

Its pretty much obvious MMOs are not for them and they should move to single player games.

Originally posted by kabitoshin
It's not the games fault for people being unsocial, It's the generation of MMO players these days. People don't want to group up with some random people when you can just zerg events.

people want to group, they are just not forced to group with you. Nothing wrong with game or other people. Start to look for cause  somewhere else.

GW2 is one of the few games out there that actually force people to group with other people. In other games, grouping may be the only efficient way to progress so that people feel "forced" to group (you could play solo but it wouldn't be nearly as efficient), but in GW2, the game automatically  groups you so that you do not compete for loot and cannot "grief" each other.

  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

2/08/13 2:56:10 AM#45
Originally posted by QSatu
I have my doubts. GW2 seems like a polar opposite of what Chinese like in their games.

The Chinese seem to like Ancient Chinese settings or overly cutesy SD games. I don't know how those SD games survive there, anime styled I'm OK with, but not SD cute everywhere.

Anyways, is there going to be more cash shop crap in a buy to play game with buy to play expansion content? Seriously, they shouldn't have made commander buyable with gold. Or did they do that on purpose so people would buy more gems? I think yeah from the poo poo I've seen commanders spewing in WvW.

I don't think you're really forced to group in Guild Wars 2 for anything but dungeons. WvW yeah you could, but really you can solo a supply camp fine. I think duo is optimal for that.

  Warband

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 735

2/08/13 5:12:58 AM#46
Originally posted by Betakodo
Originally posted by QSatu
I have my doubts. GW2 seems like a polar opposite of what Chinese like in their games.

The Chinese seem to like Ancient Chinese settings or overly cutesy SD games. I don't know how those SD games survive there, anime styled I'm OK with, but not SD cute everywhere.

Anyways, is there going to be more cash shop crap in a buy to play game with buy to play expansion content? Seriously, they shouldn't have made commander buyable with gold. Or did they do that on purpose so people would buy more gems? I think yeah from the poo poo I've seen commanders spewing in WvW.

I don't think you're really forced to group in Guild Wars 2 for anything but dungeons. WvW yeah you could, but really you can solo a supply camp fine. I think duo is optimal for that.

 TbF I'm pretty sure sure boxed sales do just fine in China depending on the game. Diablo 3 most probably sould a good few million in China alone nd that does have a chinese setting, it really just comes down to the game, If the Chinese feel it's worth the price they'll buy it if they feel it isn't thy won't.

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

2/08/13 5:33:10 AM#47
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7

The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

 

And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

 

This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

 

You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

It is easy.

Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account?

 Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

 

The fact that the previous account has only Guild Wars 1 ?

GW2 IS NOT FREE TO PLAY and you CAN NOT just register to play... You HAVE TO BUY THE BOX to create 1 single account (which every single internet caffee will have to do in order to get the game in first place) in which you can create 5 characters unless you buy more character slots in the cash shop, so unless internet caffees won't be buying the character slots for every single person who comes to their shop to play GW2 (which is also good for ANet/NCsoft) it means people who'd actually come to the shop would need to have their own account WHICH THEY BOUGHT in order to actually preserve their character from being deleted by some random guy who wants to play the game and doesn't have any more character slots left to create the new character.

I think you've got the wrong idea about GW2 model from the very beginning... B2P is not the same as F2P and people like you should really learn the difference. The same thing is with GW1, you have to buy the box to register your account - it's not free..

Regarding the gold farming, no... They do it in every single mmorpg in which it's worth farming for profit. I tought everybody knew that.

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18994

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/08/13 5:53:57 AM#48
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zzad

And that launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

Still, GW2's got to be a huge disappointment to fans of the Old Tyme Subs Argument. "How will we handle this one, we need mmogcharts and chit, oh noes!"

We might have to compare...incomes?? How will we handle currency conversion rates? We can only argue once per quarter?

Sometimes,after filtering through all the snarkiness your posts do bring up valid points.

Due to the decline of the sub model over the past 5 years, along with Game companies unwillingness to share actually how many people are online or have active accounts, or in the case of GW2, are nearly unmeasurable, how can you measure the success of one title, especially against another. 

Revenue and profitibility might be the only way in the end, but even there, since many companies such as NCSoft have multiple titles, it sometimes will be hard to discern how much of the revenue comes from a particular game. (though NCSoft has always done a pretty good job in breaking them out)

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2693

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

2/08/13 6:39:29 AM#49
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7

The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

 

And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

 

This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

 

You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

It is easy.

Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

 

All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.

Have you played GW2?

For you to create an account you need a serial key.

No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

 

What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

 

 

 

Yes I have. I played quite extensively for a while. Made it to level 63 with about 54% completion.

Maybe in the west. Because boxes are sold and keys are needed for proof of purchase. There is no such system needed in China. For example here, explains the steps one needs to take in order to play WoW in China. Creating a BattleNET account cost nothing and everyone is free to play up to level 20. It's only when you want to play pass level 20 is when you have to recharge your account with time cards.

The time cards Blizzard sells have serial numbers that are unique to each time card just like here in the US (the scratch off on the back of each card). The steps needed to take in order to recharge your account can be found  here. Each card cost about $4. And to give you perspective on just how much that amount is. The average monthly income for a middle class family of 3 in China is around $750. And the average cell phone bill is $10 a month.

What I'm getting at is unless ANet and NCSoft plan to charge Chinese players $60 dollars in what amounts to a activation card. And relying on micro transactions prices that are equivalent to US prices, I see no way for them to actually count box sales or cash shop revenue like they do in the west. Because if for any reason the prices are brought down to levels more aligned to typical prices that are normal to what Chinese players are grown to expect from a new mmo and that mmo's cash shop, you can definitely count on the naysayers here to dismiss Chinese players if they are paying $5 to activate a account (aka a box sale) and pennies on the dollar for cash shop prices.

 

Because let's not try to fool anyone here. Chinese players will NOT be paying the same prices for GW2 and it's cash shop as we do here, period. And it is the main reason why I believe revenue is revenue and if Blizzard wants to call timecard sales, subs then who cares? They still are buying a paying a sub, just not on a monthly basis. And on both counts, revenue is being brought in by both companies. But these points will yet again fall on deaf ears because of blind devotions on both sides of the fence. And this is coming from someone that enjoyed both games immensely at one poiint in time.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  tom_gore

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

2/08/13 7:55:12 AM#50
Originally posted by Karteli

I hope they don't expect those kinds of initial sales for an expansion :D

 

GW2 wasn't that great for an interactive MMORPG.  It had all the qualifications, but really lacked the social side.

 

Some people like solo player MMORPGS.  Some don't.  That's the mix of people who bought this game (via hype).

 

The expansion will sell far fewer than the vanilla launch.

Well I guess it depends completely on what there will be in the expansion. For all we know it could be a jesus expansion that gets all the current and former players to buy it plus a ton of new players.

Unlikely, but possible.

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2737

There... are... four... lights!

2/08/13 7:58:15 AM#51
I gotta love how a "spotlight poster" makes posts with only assumptions and not a single reality based fact in order to bash a game. Another proof that those titles are just complete BS.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2589

 
OP  2/08/13 8:39:57 AM#52
Originally posted by Ramonski7

Have you played GW2?

For you to create an account you need a serial key.

No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

 

What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

 

 

 

Yes I have. I played quite extensively for a while. Made it to level 63 with about 54% completion.

Maybe in the west. Because boxes are sold and keys are needed for proof of purchase. There is no such system needed in China. For example here, explains the steps one needs to take in order to play WoW in China. Creating a BattleNET account cost nothing and everyone is free to play up to level 20. It's only when you want to play pass level 20 is when you have to recharge your account with time cards.

The time cards Blizzard sells have serial numbers that are unique to each time card just like here in the US (the scratch off on the back of each card). The steps needed to take in order to recharge your account can be found  here. Each card cost about $4. And to give you perspective on just how much that amount is. The average monthly income for a middle class family of 3 in China is around $750. And the average cell phone bill is $10 a month.

What I'm getting at is unless ANet and NCSoft plan to charge Chinese players $60 dollars in what amounts to a activation card. And relying on micro transactions prices that are equivalent to US prices, I see no way for them to actually count box sales or cash shop revenue like they do in the west. Because if for any reason the prices are brought down to levels more aligned to typical prices that are normal to what Chinese players are grown to expect from a new mmo and that mmo's cash shop, you can definitely count on the naysayers here to dismiss Chinese players if they are paying $5 to activate a account (aka a box sale) and pennies on the dollar for cash shop prices.

 

Because let's not try to fool anyone here. Chinese players will NOT be paying the same prices for GW2 and it's cash shop as we do here, period. And it is the main reason why I believe revenue is revenue and if Blizzard wants to call timecard sales, subs then who cares? They still are buying a paying a sub, just not on a monthly basis. And on both counts, revenue is being brought in by both companies. But these points will yet again fall on deaf ears because of blind devotions on both sides of the fence. And this is coming from someone that enjoyed both games immensely at one poiint in time.

Was anyone saying Chinese players will be buying a $60 box?

Since GW2 has no sub-fee, the cost will be creating the accoungt. Simple. How much it will be, no idea.

GW2 numbers so far have been $150M in revenue. Game is paid with a substantial profit, most of the Arenanet workers moved for the expansion that should be out this year.

Do I care how many chinese players will playing GW2?

Probably not, but I'm interested in the revenues of GW2 to keep growing.

 

Now there is the pissing contest of who has more players and since none of us know for certain we delve into the finances to try to get a number.

We all know that the WoW player base has a west component and aeast component.

WoW fans will hype the total number of subs. WoW detractors will point at the fact most of them are chinese and pay less.

The fact remains that WoW once boasted some 11 million western accounts and that number is now probably 3-4M.

In fact if we look at the Non-GAAP Online subscriptions (Revenue from online subscriptions consists of revenue from all World of Warcraftproducts, including subscriptions, boxed products,expansion
packs, licensing royalties, and value-added services. It also includes revenues from Call of Duty Elitememberships.) was  $277M in 4Q12.

If all of that money was WoW subs $277M/3/$15 = 6.16M subs.

We also know that the Online subscrptions Non-GAAP revenues went from $1.42Bn in 2010 to $1.16Bn in 2011 to $1.07Bn in 2012.

$1.07Bn/12/$15 = 5.9M subs in 2012.

A chinese player is 1 player. A chinese player isn't a $15/month sub.

 

Data from: http://investor.activision.com/index.cfm (for Blizzard-Activision) & http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx (for NCSoft).

 

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  User Deleted
2/08/13 10:32:15 AM#53
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Was anyone saying Chinese players will be buying a $60 box?

Since GW2 has no sub-fee, the cost will be creating the accoungt. Simple. How much it will be, no idea.

Not necessarily, it might be pay by hour which is quite usual for Chinese market.

And Blizzard never boasted 11m western subs, those numbers werent reached until WoW was released in Asia.

But anyway, GW2 had a very helathy profit and is growing, thats about all that matters really.

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

2/08/13 10:47:26 AM#54

---

deleted

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2693

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

2/08/13 1:51:31 PM#55
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Ramonski7

Have you played GW2?

For you to create an account you need a serial key.

No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

 

What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

 

 

 

Yes I have. I played quite extensively for a while. Made it to level 63 with about 54% completion.

Maybe in the west. Because boxes are sold and keys are needed for proof of purchase. There is no such system needed in China. For example here, explains the steps one needs to take in order to play WoW in China. Creating a BattleNET account cost nothing and everyone is free to play up to level 20. It's only when you want to play pass level 20 is when you have to recharge your account with time cards.

The time cards Blizzard sells have serial numbers that are unique to each time card just like here in the US (the scratch off on the back of each card). The steps needed to take in order to recharge your account can be found  here. Each card cost about $4. And to give you perspective on just how much that amount is. The average monthly income for a middle class family of 3 in China is around $750. And the average cell phone bill is $10 a month.

What I'm getting at is unless ANet and NCSoft plan to charge Chinese players $60 dollars in what amounts to a activation card. And relying on micro transactions prices that are equivalent to US prices, I see no way for them to actually count box sales or cash shop revenue like they do in the west. Because if for any reason the prices are brought down to levels more aligned to typical prices that are normal to what Chinese players are grown to expect from a new mmo and that mmo's cash shop, you can definitely count on the naysayers here to dismiss Chinese players if they are paying $5 to activate a account (aka a box sale) and pennies on the dollar for cash shop prices.

 

Because let's not try to fool anyone here. Chinese players will NOT be paying the same prices for GW2 and it's cash shop as we do here, period. And it is the main reason why I believe revenue is revenue and if Blizzard wants to call timecard sales, subs then who cares? They still are buying a paying a sub, just not on a monthly basis. And on both counts, revenue is being brought in by both companies. But these points will yet again fall on deaf ears because of blind devotions on both sides of the fence. And this is coming from someone that enjoyed both games immensely at one poiint in time.

Was anyone saying Chinese players will be buying a $60 box?

Since GW2 has no sub-fee, the cost will be creating the accoungt. Simple. How much it will be, no idea.

GW2 numbers so far have been $150M in revenue. Game is paid with a substantial profit, most of the Arenanet workers moved for the expansion that should be out this year.

Do I care how many chinese players will playing GW2?

Probably not, but I'm interested in the revenues of GW2 to keep growing.

 

Now there is the pissing contest of who has more players and since none of us know for certain we delve into the finances to try to get a number.

We all know that the WoW player base has a west component and aeast component.

WoW fans will hype the total number of subs. WoW detractors will point at the fact most of them are chinese and pay less.

The fact remains that WoW once boasted some 11 million western accounts and that number is now probably 3-4M.

In fact if we look at the Non-GAAP Online subscriptions (Revenue from online subscriptions consists of revenue from all World of Warcraftproducts, including subscriptions, boxed products,expansion
packs, licensing royalties, and value-added services. It also includes revenues from Call of Duty Elitememberships.) was  $277M in 4Q12.

If all of that money was WoW subs $277M/3/$15 = 6.16M subs.

We also know that the Online subscrptions Non-GAAP revenues went from $1.42Bn in 2010 to $1.16Bn in 2011 to $1.07Bn in 2012.

$1.07Bn/12/$15 = 5.6M subs in 2012.

A chinese player is 1 player. A chinese player isn't a $15/month sub.

 

Data from: http://investor.activision.com/index.cfm (for Blizzard-Activision) & http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx (for NCSoft).

 

 

 

Sorry I thought you understood that I was basing my assumptions on the fact that most people here (like you it seems too) seem to dismiss Blizzard and WoW's revenue generated from China solely because the Chinese pay less to play. Also they seem to quickly disagree and dismiss anytime Bliizzard announces sub figures because they do not agree with Blizzard's definition of what qualifies as a sub in China in the first place. And I'm simply asking. Does it really matter how they label their paying player base, no matter where they reside or how much it cost for them to play, as long as they are still active and generating revenue?

 

I mean if you take away the wording by switch sub to active players and apply that to whatever number Blizzard is spewing nowadays, it would still be a very impressive number of players for a 8-year old mmo, would it not? What's more impressive is that each of these players are required to have a active account and paid something during a 30-day cycle or they're not counted.

 

But I'm sure detractors would just assume that half of those active players for WoW are only Chinese players farming gold anyway so they still wouldn't count them. Nevermind the issue of how rediculous it sounds for them to insultingly label 100% of the WoW Chinese player base as nothing more than Chinese gold farmers...like no one outside the NA and EU population plays WoW for any other reason.

 

And as far as GW2 and ANet is concerned, I was simply presenting the above example as one possible road NCSoft could take to generate revenue when they finally introduce GW2 to the Chinese market. Nothing wrong with that road to me. And you could easily replace Blizzard with ANET and WoW with GW2 in my above example and I would feel the same way about them (With the execption of boxes sold of course as it wouldn't matter in either case). But for a lot of poeple here it will all be about the wording used to label such a success. And what all really needs to be said in both cases is that players are still active and revenue is still being generated, period.

 

 


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2589

 
OP  2/08/13 3:13:35 PM#56
Originally posted by Ramonski7
 

Sorry I thought you understood that I was basing my assumptions on the fact that most people here (like you it seems too) seem to dismiss Blizzard and WoW's revenue generated from China solely because the Chinese pay less to play. Also they seem to quickly disagree and dismiss anytime Bliizzard announces sub figures because they do not agree with Blizzard's definition of what qualifies as a sub in China in the first place. And I'm simply asking. Does it really matter how they label their paying player base, no matter where they reside or how much it cost for them to play, as long as they are still active and generating revenue?

 

I mean if you take away the wording by switch sub to active players and apply that to whatever number Blizzard is spewing nowadays, it would still be a very impressive number of players for a 8-year old mmo, would it not? What's more impressive is that each of these players are required to have a active account and paid something during a 30-day cycle or they're not counted.

 

But I'm sure detractors would just assume that half of those active players for WoW are only Chinese players farming gold anyway so they still wouldn't count them. Nevermind the issue of how rediculous it sounds for them to insultingly label 100% of the WoW Chinese player base as nothing more than Chinese gold farmers...like no one outside the NA and EU population plays WoW for any other reason.

 

And as far as GW2 and ANet is concerned, I was simply presenting the above example as one possible road NCSoft could take to generate revenue when they finally introduce GW2 to the Chinese market. Nothing wrong with that road to me. And you could easily replace Blizzard with ANET and WoW with GW2 in my above example and I would feel the same way about them (With the execption of boxes sold of course as it wouldn't matter in either case). But for a lot of poeple here it will all be about the wording used to label such a success. And what all really needs to be said in both cases is that players are still active and revenue is still being generated, period.

 

 

There is two different things, revenues and players.

You want to talk about revenues you point and say "WoW made $XXXM of money this quarter".

Except Blizzard-Activision don't exactly say that, They have an online parcel that should mostly be WoW but we aren't sure.

That is the revenue, and WoW is a monster revenue machine (with or without China, the suits are still buying yatchs) - Blizzard could let the server runs for 100 years and the WoW would still have been many times profitable.

Then there is players.

If you were a Lineage player,does it matter to you Lineage is still going strong in S.Korea? Western servers are dead.

Would it really affect the non-China WoW players if China servers were shut?

And of course, Chinese gold farmers play on Europe/US servers.

When people split the China market out ,it is because they want to compare apples to apples.

The China market is pretty much a different world - their payment model is different, few westerns speak/read/talk Chinese, few Chinese talk english, different culture, different time for patches/releases, etc.

For Blizzard, money is money.

This forum has americans and canadians, europeans from different nationalities, australians, brazillians. I'm sure it has people from all the regions, but I bet the large majority is north american/european and any of us could go play in US servers or European servers with no problems.

So when people say something about the chinese players (silly bias asside)what they real mean is "how many potential people can I play with?".

And while it might change, at this moment, this is represented by the US/EU servers market,

So while WoW has 9.6 million subs (or subs equivalents) in fact the potential player pool is 3-4 millions for the english speakers.

The Chinese market matters alot for companies like Blizzard and NCSoft, it doesn't matter that much for the US/EU server players, because if WoW or GW2 stop being profitable in the EU/US market those will be shut down regardless of how China is doing..

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Eletheryl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/12
Posts: 154

2/08/13 3:26:31 PM#57
2,9 millions of copies but how many active players the game have?, financially GW2 was a huge success same as D3 with 12 millions of copies, but the player retention for both games was an huge fail, and that is the real problem. But if the people is just happy because NCsoft and Anet are making a lot of money instead of working in a better game for everyone, is ok after all is a B2P game. 
  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/08/13 3:31:56 PM#58
Originally posted by Eletheryl
2,9 millions of copies but how many active players the game have?, financially GW2 was a huge success same as D3 with 12 millions of copies, but the player retention for both games was an huge fail, and that is the real problem. But if the people is just happy because NCsoft and Anet are making a lot of money instead of working in a better game for everyone, is ok after all is a B2P game. 

For the love of any god or belief you have if any please stop lying, I mean damn it's not hard to do it really isn't.

If you have no belief for the sake of humanity please, I ask of you to please stop lying.

 

When you ask me "Well how am I lying?" prove to me how you are not with actual evidence and I will forever leave you the fuck alone when you make these false claims.

P.S - Lmbo aye I might get bannd for the kinda language I use, cause some how I be trolling trolls and shit but it's all good cause I don't beat around the bush when I call people out who say ignorant shit as if it's a fact.

 

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2589

 
OP  2/08/13 4:29:24 PM#59
Originally posted by Eletheryl
2,9 millions of copies but how many active players the game have?, financially GW2 was a huge success same as D3 with 12 millions of copies, but the player retention for both games was an huge fail, and that is the real problem. But if the people is just happy because NCsoft and Anet are making a lot of money instead of working in a better game for everyone, is ok after all is a B2P game. 

My GF was just telling me "damn commander group going around in a big mob killing every mob!".

Sometimes I wished there was a bit less people.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3086

I am more than some of my parts

2/08/13 6:04:16 PM#60
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

Sometimes I wished there was a bit less people.

 

I've felt the same way at times.

 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

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