warhammer online is pretty much only pvp now because no one does any pve at all , they also have wrath of heroes which is all pvp as well . That is just a lobby version similiar to LOL . People play both those games still to this date and getting 20k subs out of something similiar wouldnt be all that hard to do just by word of mouth alone.

Now add in a huge persistant world made up of three frontiers , where the pvp is fair on new players but rewarding on vets and I highly doubt anyone will miss doing pve. This game is set to be a niche not mainstream, you want to pve and raid you got Rift and WOW and a zillion other games out there to play. Some of us played DAOC for years and mostly did realm vs realm , same with warhammer online. There is a market for this regardless of what a few posters here think.

If you add in realm vs realm with say limited skill sets no charcter levels and you earn realm points like DAOC to buy more abilities and you can craft weapons and armor , have your own house and sige keeps . I see no reason this game would not have over 20k subs at the very least with all the crap games that have zero effort put into them having more than 20k subs easy.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Torv. Just outdoor pvp, crafting and housing. By no pve I take that to mean no quests, no dungeons, no mobs, except maybe guards.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.  I think the no mobs part would be a mistake though.  Part of what made daoc rvr define the term was competition for pve resources with the focus being on pvp.  It was fighting for resources in the rvr zone that added that competitive feel which I think pvp players find satisfying (at least I know it worked that way in Lineage).

It will be interesting to see where he goes with this.  I know new ideas or a return to old favorite ideas can be exciting, but he's directly responsible for some horrible changes/features in daoc and war.  It seems prudent to loot at this with some scrutiny, especially with a kickstarter.  Look at some of the recent sketchy kickstarter projects.

It actually does take at least $10M+ to make a triple A quality mmo.  That's 3A quality in graphics, engine performance, back-end engineering, client development / modification.

We used to have a developer blog here by a woman on a semi-indie project.  The project folded unfortunately and she detailed why, along with a very real description of what it costs and takes to develop an mmo.  The very bottom line was $10M with her estimating that $20 - $30M currently is a very realistic expectation without a bunch of frills.

Rift cost over $50M to produce [1].  TOR is estimated to have cost $150 - $200M[2] (although Michael Pachter pulled $80M out of his ass - only god knows where he got that number [it's in a gamespot article]).

Maybe he can pull it off with an engine that is cheaper to license, has pre-existing assets to purchase and license, and by limiting the feature set.  Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

"I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors."

That's exactly what he's done.  He's thrown out sandbox, rvr, made a few slights at themepark to generate a real frothy frenzy, and basically pandered to a vocal crowd of perpetual malcontents.

He keeps talking how his game wll be niche.  I'm curious how he plans on havinig 60K players pay for it (his number not mine).  What does it take to make a game at minimum, $10M, $20M, $30M?  If he gets $5M from his kickstarter, which 60K people could fund reasonably (at an average of $83.34 per person) that leaves another $15 - 25M.  He needs to recoup $250 - $417 per person just to break even, which doesn't include operating expenses, overhead, and continued development.

He keeps talking talking no pve, only rvr, but what does that really mean?  A core piece to rvr is competition for resources, including mob drops.  I guess he could just have scattered crafting nodes and use players as loot droppers, but he hasn't detailed anything.

He mentions tiered subscriptions, which is the very definition of pay to win.

People are sucking this up with little thought to the changes he brought to daoc and war.  This is going to be an interesting and fun one to watch.  If you think the TOR and GW2 hype fallout was something, just wait and watch this.

Your argument is wrong simply because you don't need 30M $ to make a rvr-mmo. Daoc cost 2.5 M $ and reached 250K subscriber peak. 

I am liking this, huge DAOC fan.  The only thing I missed about the PvE in DAOC was pre ToA it didnt need every ones attention to just sit around and camp mobs.  So it was a great way to socialize and get to know other players in your realm.  DAoC is the one MMO I have played where I thoroughly enjoyed interacting with other players.  

I love his philosophy of make a game with a certain idea and vision and just make the damn thing.  I am so tired of game developers caving to the vocal minority, contrary to popular belief most if not all people dont really know what they want.  I love the day/night cycle, while matched with real life or shorter, I love the housing, and I love the lack of instant travel.  

I think one of the things that made DAoC RvR so compelling was the fact that if you lost, it could take a long time to get back to where you were.  The problem with new games and WvW is the fact that the game developers want to get players into the action as fast as possible.  This sounds great and its what players want but this just creates the issue of the massive mindless never ending zerg.  This is a prime example of people thinking they want instant spawns and faster access to fights in WvW and that having this will make it better, when in fact it lessens the WvW.

So I am eagerly awaiting this game, and I love the no PvE.  I just dont understand why another PvE MMO is needed.  I think the problem with previous PvP only focused MMOs is the lack of persistent world and other things outside of straight PvP such as housing and crafting.

Originally posted by MLecl0001

So I am eagerly awaiting this game, and I love the no PvE.  I just dont understand why another PvE MMO is needed.  I think the problem with previous PvP only focused MMOs is the lack of persistent world and other things outside of straight PvP such as housing and crafting.

 

 

Agreed. There are already so many PvE MMO's, most of which have awful PvP systems. Why even try to compete with games like WoW in the PvE department?  Just make an RvR focused game that destroys other MMO's in that regard. The main reason I quit WoW is because the PvP is instanced and meaningless. It's just a repetitive gear grind.

Originally posted by cronius77

warhammer online is pretty much only pvp now because no one does any pve at all , they also have wrath of heroes which is all pvp as well . That is just a lobby version similiar to LOL . People play both those games still to this date and getting 20k subs out of something similiar wouldnt be all that hard to do just by word of mouth alone.

Now add in a huge persistant world made up of three frontiers , where the pvp is fair on new players but rewarding on vets and I highly doubt anyone will miss doing pve. This game is set to be a niche not mainstream, you want to pve and raid you got Rift and WOW and a zillion other games out there to play. Some of us played DAOC for years and mostly did realm vs realm , same with warhammer online. There is a market for this regardless of what a few posters here think.

If you add in realm vs realm with say limited skill sets no charcter levels and you earn realm points like DAOC to buy more abilities and you can craft weapons and armor , have your own house and sige keeps . I see no reason this game would not have over 20k subs at the very least with all the crap games that have zero effort put into them having more than 20k subs easy.

WAR is a poor example but I think  you'll find most players actually either pve or do the low-level instanced pvp instead of the top end stuff.

"Mostly did rvr"....you see the problem? How many players did RvR exclusively? Honestly? Not many. In CU you will ONLY be able to pvp.....im afraid i see a problem with this. Will players be wiling to pay a penny for rpg pvp when plenty of modern games already do this for free?

If it has a subs fee then why not play DAoC instead rather than DAoC-lite?

Seeing how DAOC is my all time favorite game,

this news instantly gives this +++ hype for me personally.

Originally posted by Zinzan

 

WAR is a poor example but I think  you'll find most players actually either pve or do the low-level instanced pvp instead of the top end stuff.

"Mostly did rvr"....you see the problem? How many players did RvR exclusively? Honestly? Not many. In CU you will ONLY be able to pvp.....im afraid i see a problem with this. Will players be wiling to pay a penny for rpg pvp when plenty of modern games already do this for free?

If it has a subs fee then why not play DAoC instead rather than DAoC-lite?

I think quite a few people will be willing to sub up to a pure RvR/PVP game I see no issues with that at all. I am pretty sure quite a few people sub up to Planetside 2.

What modern games do true open world fantasy RvR for free? I cant think or any.. and no GW2 does not count as its not open world its just a small map seperate from the game world.

how yu guy can crittique something when no gameplay released yet? for my parth no gameplay no comment..... will not buy a game before see what they look like

Went to the site, read MJs words, and sub'd to the email list.

I will most likely donate as his vision of this game is very much like something I want to be part of.

DAoC crafting was one of the best systems I had ever seen, (and yeah TOA fubared it), so for him to keep mentioning no PvE, no mob dropped gear, only crafted gear for an RvR game, this is huge, and I am more than interested.

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by cronius77

warhammer online is pretty much only pvp now because no one does any pve at all , they also have wrath of heroes which is all pvp as well . That is just a lobby version similiar to LOL . People play both those games still to this date and getting 20k subs out of something similiar wouldnt be all that hard to do just by word of mouth alone.

Now add in a huge persistant world made up of three frontiers , where the pvp is fair on new players but rewarding on vets and I highly doubt anyone will miss doing pve. This game is set to be a niche not mainstream, you want to pve and raid you got Rift and WOW and a zillion other games out there to play. Some of us played DAOC for years and mostly did realm vs realm , same with warhammer online. There is a market for this regardless of what a few posters here think.

If you add in realm vs realm with say limited skill sets no charcter levels and you earn realm points like DAOC to buy more abilities and you can craft weapons and armor , have your own house and sige keeps . I see no reason this game would not have over 20k subs at the very least with all the crap games that have zero effort put into them having more than 20k subs easy.

WAR is a poor example but I think  you'll find most players actually either pve or do the low-level instanced pvp instead of the top end stuff.

"Mostly did rvr"....you see the problem? How many players did RvR exclusively? Honestly? Not many. In CU you will ONLY be able to pvp.....im afraid i see a problem with this. Will players be wiling to pay a penny for rpg pvp when plenty of modern games already do this for free?

If it has a subs fee then why not play DAoC instead rather than DAoC-lite?

DAoC currently has many problems,

1. the ML/Arti system, it  destroyed a perfectly balanced system of crafting gear and Realm Rank abilities/skills.

2. gold farmers are just ridiculous in the game, and easy to spot, yet nothing gets done about it.

3. Radar is still rampant in the game, and still not stopped

4. CS on DAoC is done through POGO phone reps (online gambling game)

I could go on, but mainly it's because of EA, and why I do not consider anything they distribute for years now. Has DAoC done things right? Yes, the original game, Darkness Falls, Battlegrounds, and I actually like the New Frontiers, though I still think it's not even scratched the surface of what it could have been there.

You may call CU  DAoC-lite, but I have a better term for you, what about DAoC-Basic (neck check!). He seems to be taking the basics of what made DAoC great and going from there, and that's all I would ask for personally in a game of this calibur.

while I was excited as the next DAOC fan it brought alot of bad memories.

I usually don't like to vent BUT he has always denied there was any issues with WAR HAMMER. NOW he comes up and says yea we knew...!!!

BS! I and thousands of other people provided logs during the beta test and it was the same cut and paste reply there was no issues...there was no memory leak..he had the same attitude when DAOC was at it's peak. Sorry mate I been burn twice by his attitude he was never open and honest to players....lets get real man!

Another issue is that from DAOC to WAR the game never felt quite right....it seem none of these were ever optimized you alway seem to need a quadcore to even remotely run them with out any studder or bs...and yet he denied there was any issues with the games.

Originally posted by kingsatanas

how yu guy can crittique something when no gameplay released yet? for my parth no gameplay no comment..... will not buy a game before see what they look like

 

Is not so much about the previous games but his attitude man toward the community each of those games had issues...and he denied them..he was never honest with fan base..

Originally posted by Nibs
DAoC cost 2.5M to make.

In 2001.

Nothing costs 2.5m these days.