Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

Its not about endgame its about philosophy behind the game.

If i want to play latest content, yes, im forced to grind that gear in a very specific way, and thus you cannot play how you like.

But then, noone is forced to play SWTOR at all, its just your example of the game that severly limits one aspect of gameplay opposed to one which doesnt.

And, what a coincidence, i also answered post above because i knew youll go there.

Originally posted by grimal

Actually, some of the puzzles in TSW are quite hard.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the whole game is.  But then what MMORPG has actually been hard, much less a trinity-based one.

I didnt know that puzzles require trinity or that without trinity you cant have puzzles. Its actually confirmation that once you disregard trinity you can make game hard, you cant make trinity hard because its most simple model there is.

You're changing the argument.

I originally applied to Aer's statement (see below).  What you are talking about is very different.  As for your final comment, again you are changing what I was saying.

"how are you forced to do dungeons? or WvW? or how are you forced to do the new guild quests they are adding? its all optional stuff to allow people to play in groups in a MMO.. Can you hit level 80 and not do a single one of those grouped things? can you get full set of exotic gear and not be forced into a group a single second?  do people even read what they write sometimes? you are seriouslly bitching about them adding more group content in an MMO? There is so much content you can complete in this game at the solo level some additional group stuff is very welcomed"

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

I think he's saying that to experience ALL of the content, you're going to have to raid.  Sure, endgame is never necessary to enjoy a game, but to enjoy it fully, you're going to need to bust your ass for weeks or more likely, months, for the low low chance of getting those purple pants that increase the odds people will invite you to another raid.  It's a ridiculous hamster wheel that I never really noticed the futility of until I got off of it for a while, stepped back, and saw the big picture. 

Well, if you are putting that clause in, then every game forces you to experience its content, doesn't it?  Therefore, I am forced to do the grind in every game (GW2 included).

Ok so say the word "forced" is replaced with "funnelled". I've never felt funnelled in GW1 or GW2. You can try and make an argument that the FotM addition is funnelling and I'd agree to some small degree it is. However, it is not required to play any content in the game.

Contrast this to the traditional raiding games they are usually tiered so that you are required to get all or some of the drops from the first to move to the second. So you can not experience all of the content without going through the funnel. You certainly can resist funnelling sounds like you do but your not experincing the whole game. If you don't want to good on you then.

Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

I think he's saying that to experience ALL of the content, you're going to have to raid.  Sure, endgame is never necessary to enjoy a game, but to enjoy it fully, you're going to need to bust your ass for weeks or more likely, months, for the low low chance of getting those purple pants that increase the odds people will invite you to another raid.  It's a ridiculous hamster wheel that I never really noticed the futility of until I got off of it for a while, stepped back, and saw the big picture. 

Well, if you are putting that clause in, then every game forces you to experience its content, doesn't it?  Therefore, I am forced to do the grind in every game (GW2 included).

Ok so say the word "forced" is replaced with "funnelled". I've never felt funnelled in GW1 or GW2. You can try and make an argument that the FotM addition is funnelling and I'd agree to some small degree it is. However, it is not required to play any content in the game.

Contrast this to the traditional raiding games they are usually tiered so that you are required to get all or some of the drops from the first to move to the second. So you can not experience all of the content without going through the funnel. You certainly can resist funnelling sounds like you do but your not experincing the whole game. If you don't want to good on you then.

Read Aerowyn's statement I was debating.   I can replace "funnelled" in there and it still applies.  I am not funnelled to do any of those other activities (Flashpoints, Raiding, etc) to get to max level.

Originally posted by grimal

Read Aerowyn's statement I was debating.   I can replace "funnelled" in there and it still applies.  I am not funnelled to do any of those other activities (Flashpoints, Raiding, etc) to get to max level.

It mentiones MORE than going to max level, if you do selective reading you get your responses.

As a matter of fact, staement about gear has more bearing to person Aerowyn responded to because thats what he QQes about because thats what SWTOR, WoW, Rift, LOTRO and the rest are all about and thats what GW2 does in completely different way and you wont end up with gimped character because youre forced to do things you dont like like in those games.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

I think he's saying that to experience ALL of the content, you're going to have to raid.  Sure, endgame is never necessary to enjoy a game, but to enjoy it fully, you're going to need to bust your ass for weeks or more likely, months, for the low low chance of getting those purple pants that increase the odds people will invite you to another raid.  It's a ridiculous hamster wheel that I never really noticed the futility of until I got off of it for a while, stepped back, and saw the big picture. 

Well, if you are putting that clause in, then every game forces you to experience its content, doesn't it?  Therefore, I am forced to do the grind in every game (GW2 included).

I don't feel forced to play most games.  I felt forced to play a gear grind in WoW.  You know there's a reason for that right?  They string you along so that you have to aquire better gear before you can aquire better gear.  That's force.  Getting to level 80 and being able to buy max stat gear OR just going into a lvl 80 dungeon without it is not.  Games like WoW are designed to keep you p(l)aying.  You're stretching this pretty far by saying "every game".  Don't be obtuse, you know what I mean.

Anyway, if your argument is that you aren't forced to play endgame, true, no one is and I agree.  Mine is that you cannot experience all of the content in most MMOs like you can in GW2 without a massive, repetitive grind (usually with people you can't stand in my experience).

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

I think he's saying that to experience ALL of the content, you're going to have to raid.  Sure, endgame is never necessary to enjoy a game, but to enjoy it fully, you're going to need to bust your ass for weeks or more likely, months, for the low low chance of getting those purple pants that increase the odds people will invite you to another raid.  It's a ridiculous hamster wheel that I never really noticed the futility of until I got off of it for a while, stepped back, and saw the big picture. 

Well, if you are putting that clause in, then every game forces you to experience its content, doesn't it?  Therefore, I am forced to do the grind in every game (GW2 included).

Ok so say the word "forced" is replaced with "funnelled". I've never felt funnelled in GW1 or GW2. You can try and make an argument that the FotM addition is funnelling and I'd agree to some small degree it is. However, it is not required to play any content in the game.

Contrast this to the traditional raiding games they are usually tiered so that you are required to get all or some of the drops from the first to move to the second. So you can not experience all of the content without going through the funnel. You certainly can resist funnelling sounds like you do but your not experincing the whole game. If you don't want to good on you then.

Read Aerowyn's statement I was debating.   I can replace "funnelled" in there and it still applies.  I am not funnelled to do any of those other activities (Flashpoints, Raiding, etc) to get to max level.

OK re-read Aerowyn's statement says more then just max level it talks about gear as well. No doubt in the raid oriented games I've played you can indeed get to make max level in may different ways that don't require you to raid. However, to get the best gear you are certainly funneled to the raid content. 

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

Actually, some of the puzzles in TSW are quite hard.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the whole game is.  But then what MMORPG has actually been hard, much less a trinity-based one.

I didnt know that puzzles require trinity or that without trinity you cant have puzzles. Its actually confirmation that once you disregard trinity you can make game hard, you cant make trinity hard because its most simple model there is.

TSW puzzles definitely don't require the trinity at all. I don't even now why he posted that, it's totally irrelevant.

Originally posted by muthax

Funny thing, after the inclusion of "dodging 15 attacks" in  daily Achievements, I seen in chat a lot of questions on the tune of "How do I dodge?!?".

That shines a lot of light on the reasons why 'some people' didn't like GW2 combat ....

I think the dodging acheivement was a superb idea, that helps guide players to become better players.  Anet really has some good ideas for using simple things to have great consequences.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

You aren't forced to do end game, but if you want you will have to grind gear doing quests or dungeons.

You aren't forced to get max stats, but if you want you need to do end game.

GW2 changes that (now that Anet is sorting that ascended debacle) by allowing you to get max stats by doing whatever you want and allowing to enjoy whatever activities you want without a gear check.

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

Read Aerowyn's statement I was debating.   I can replace "funnelled" in there and it still applies.  I am not funnelled to do any of those other activities (Flashpoints, Raiding, etc) to get to max level.

It mentiones MORE than going to max level, if you do selective reading you get your responses.

As a matter of fact, staement about gear has more bearing to person Aerowyn responded to because thats what he QQes about because thats what SWTOR, WoW, Rift, LOTRO and the rest are all about and thats what GW2 does in completely different way and you wont end up with gimped character because youre forced to do things you dont like like in those games.

Aerowyn's statement:

"how are you forced to do dungeons? or WvW? or how are you forced to do the new guild quests they are adding? its all optional stuff to allow people to play in groups in a MMO.. Can you hit level 80 and not do a single one of those grouped things? can you get full set of exotic gear and not be forced into a group a single second?  do people even read what they write sometimes? you are seriouslly bitching about them adding more group content in an MMO? There is so much content you can complete in this game at the solo level some additional group stuff is very welcomed"

I was replying to the parts highlighted.  But the mention of exotic gear.....there is no eqivalent in SWTOR (actually I guess it is the social gear where you do have to do some sort of social grind)..but in the end, you are not forced to have those social gear items for anything in the game as they are just cosmetic much like the exotic gear in GW2.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

Actually, some of the puzzles in TSW are quite hard.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the whole game is.  But then what MMORPG has actually been hard, much less a trinity-based one.

I didnt know that puzzles require trinity or that without trinity you cant have puzzles. Its actually confirmation that once you disregard trinity you can make game hard, you cant make trinity hard because its most simple model there is.

TSW puzzles definitely don't require the trinity at all. I don't even now why he posted that, it's totally irrelevant.

I jumped in the argument halfway and was just responding to the point of 'naming a trinity based game with difficulty'.

So, TSW is trinity game and does have some difficult elements.  Just pointing out that fact.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

I think he's saying that to experience ALL of the content, you're going to have to raid.  Sure, endgame is never necessary to enjoy a game, but to enjoy it fully, you're going to need to bust your ass for weeks or more likely, months, for the low low chance of getting those purple pants that increase the odds people will invite you to another raid.  It's a ridiculous hamster wheel that I never really noticed the futility of until I got off of it for a while, stepped back, and saw the big picture. 

Well, if you are putting that clause in, then every game forces you to experience its content, doesn't it?  Therefore, I am forced to do the grind in every game (GW2 included).

I don't feel forced to play most games.  I felt forced to play a gear grind in WoW.  You know there's a reason for that right?  They string you along so that you have to aquire better gear before you can aquire better gear.  That's force.  Getting to level 80 and being able to buy max stat gear OR just going into a lvl 80 dungeon without it is not.  Games like WoW are designed to keep you p(l)aying.  You're stretching this pretty far by saying "every game".  Don't be obtuse, you know what I mean.

Anyway, if your argument is that you aren't forced to play endgame, true, no one is and I agree.  Mine is that you cannot experience all of the content in most MMOs like you can in GW2 without a massive, repetitive grind (usually with people you can't stand in my experience).

What about the dungeons?  If I want to experience all that is GW2 I need to do the dungeons.  I hated the dungeon experience.  So call it "grind", call it "dungeons"...if you want to experience the entirety of a game, chances are you are going to experience something you dont enjoy.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by grimal

What do you mean for stats? As in gear?  Well, I don't know, to be honest.  But I am not forced to get max gear,  That I know.

How convenient, you dont know. I bet you also dont know that endgame in SWTOR IS gear check, so if you want to play content you MUST grind your gear in a very specific way, be it PvP or PvE.

Well, now you know.

I am not forced to do endgame.  Isn't that what we are talking about?  Being forced to do or not do something?

And what exactly is forcing you to do that grind?  The game itself?

 

Edit: and why the hostile attitiude?

You aren't forced to do end game, but if you want you will have to grind gear doing quests or dungeons.

You aren't forced to get max stats, but if you want you need to do end game.

GW2 changes that (now that Anet is sorting that ascended debacle) by allowing you to get max stats by doing whatever you want and allowing to enjoy whatever activities you want without a gear check.

 

See, this is something I don't understand.  I get trying to get better gear to boost your gameplay experience for the journey...but the whole notion of getting max stats for the sake of it all just doesn't jive with me.  I just don't get it.

Legendaries......on par with the best korean grinder/RNG games known to man.

Personal story....solo until you get to the last part and then its forced grouping.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by eyelolled 

But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

how are you forced to do dungeons? or WvW? or how are you forced to do the new guild quests they are adding? its all optional stuff to allow people to play in groups in a MMO.. Can you hit level 80 and not do a single one of those grouped things? can you get full set of exotic gear and not be forced into a group a single second?  do people even read what they write sometimes? you are seriouslly bitching about them adding more group content in an MMO? There is so much content you can complete in this game at the solo level some additional group stuff is very welcomed

Hate to jump into the argument midway, but seems I am already doing it.

I keep seeing you use this point, Aer, but there are many games that don't force you to do things you don't want.  Take SWTOR for example.  I am not forced to do any Flashpoints, PVP or raids.  I can level all the way to 50 without doing any.  I can even skip the main storyline and simply do side quests, or reverse. 

So I fail to see how you can use this for GW2 as if it is some sort of unique aspect to the gameplay.

 

OP - I liked your post.  I have to admit, I have not seen any comments like "noob" etc in-game in turns of my playstyle.  And if the mechanics are themselves pushing people to work together, that should be commended.  However, if this is true, I wonder how long it will last.  MMOs were a niche over a decade ago and it would be much more common to find others working together in communities back then...it wasn't until they became more mainstream and those type of players joined the space that we began to see this behavior as more common.

If what you say is true, I can only think it will be a matter of time before that mentality becomes more common in this game as well.

where did a say anywhere it was unique to GW2? i was stating you can play how you want in this game solo or group and get to 80 but like all MMOs there is plenty of content that is for "GROUPS" thats all and really not sure how people can get mad by that. Not sure why you assumed I was saying this was unique to GW2.. i  just found itgrowls statement very odd that it sounded like he is upset they are adding group content.. thats all

Originally posted by eyelolled

There are lots of reasons to praise GW2, and by all means, I have no intention of mentioning them all in this thread. The one thing that really sets GW2 above so many typical mmorpgs, is how the game doesn't make player feel "under the thumb" of others. Players work together naturally, and the flow of the game contributes to players learning how to help improve each others damage, tanking, crowd control or healing. It's amazing watching the synergies between players grow as it progresses through a dynamic event chain.  People working together because they can, because they are seeing more ways that their own character can add to the fight beyond just dps or heals or just standing there taking hits. Things like a necro moving over to drop a well around a ranger, to add the cross-profession combo letting the ranger do more damage.  It's not only about maxing out what your toon can do, but helping to max out what other players can do too,and only because you can not because you have to.    

 

Other games keep players of one role utterly dependant on another, leaving them with little choice but to submit to putting up with the irritations of their own group, in addition to the frustrations of opposing characters and such. How often have we heard the tank telling the healer how to heal, or the healer telling the tank how to mitigate damage.  The rage and frustration that game design leads to is absolutely defeating to newcomers. The learning curve is strife with abuse and beratement, and undoubtedly the greatest cause for the callous term "noob". And what choice does the newcomer have? They have to fill a role, because the game defines them as a dependant. They are forced to be reliant on the goodwill of others, and typically, too many  "others" don't let them forget it either. 

 

I suggest that this treatment is cyclical in nature as well, and that it creates a roll-over from one player to another. In cases of mental abuse it has been observed that as much as 70% of abusers were abused themselves.  There is no way to derive an accurate number of the counter point, but it's easy to assume that a large percentage of people that were initiated within dependancy role will become dependant upon the role structure in the future. 

 

They become climatized to the role of  "be a good *** so nobody can complain" They develop a sense of  "in-game worth" in accordance to how others regard them. Left alone, they can't define their value. They have become dependant, on being dependant.

 

But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

That's your opinion, but in my almost 13 years of MMORPG gaming, I've very rarely have been in a bad group, and even more rare than that has it been because someone was being a tool. I just haven't really run into the situations you illustrate in your post. I happen to like very rigid group roles like classic MMORPG's. It taught people how to work together and people got to know not only their classes very well, but the classes of the people who they played with day in and day out. 

I gave GW2 a chance, fulling expecting to have fun, but in the end it felt like every class was essentially a dps/support character which is incredibly boring, not to mention not very effective for grouping...at least for noobs to the game.

Originally posted by nate1980

That's your opinion, but in my almost 13 years of MMORPG gaming, I've very rarely have been in a bad group, and even more rare than that has it been because someone was being a tool. I just haven't really run into the situations you illustrate in your post. I happen to like very rigid group roles like classic MMORPG's. It taught people how to work together and people got to know not only their classes very well, but the classes of the people who they played with day in and day out. 

I gave GW2 a chance, fulling expecting to have fun, but in the end it felt like every class was essentially a dps/support character which is incredibly boring, not to mention not very effective for grouping...at least for noobs to the game.

Pure "your mileage may vary" thing. You prefer hard set roles as to many others. In that case this won't be the ideal game for you, it's as simple as that. Personally,  I like the dynamic element to the combat where roles are dissolved and instead you use the attributes of your skills (damage, control and support elements) in the right situation for best effect. My only beef with your statement is that you left "control" out of "every character was essentially a dps/support". We're all dps/control/support at need. We also should keep in mind that we synergize with each other for added benefits (cross-profession combos). Simple example, one utility I carry is Null Field. Lovely skill it is... a target AoE field which strips boons off enemies and conditions off allies. That by itself is pretty sweet... but when I cast that lovely shimmering ring inevitably someone is firing projectiles through it adding stacks of confusion to the enemies. Someone else will use a stomp or other blast finisher and suddenly everyone in the area is sporting Chaos Armor. One spell, used right, does all this... especially when combined with other skills used right.

Sorry... got to babbling there. Point being, we like what we're comfortable with. If a trinity system best suits you then it is what it is... there's no faults to you, ANet, WoW or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Different people are different, after all.