Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by botrytis
Your bill of rights steps on most of the EULA's that game makers use. Guess who would win in court?

The party the Judge decides makes the best and most reasonable argument depending on the dispute and the circumstances.

Contrary to what many people tend to believe - an EULA is not overriding law.

If an EULA said "We may come to your house and chop your limbs off, at any time, without recourse." that does not mean a Developer could actually do that.

An EULA is a contract.  Contracts are disputed every day, in court.  And US Law does not apply outside the US (as US law)

 

To the OP:

I do see your point here, but a few of the things you ask for, like point 4, forget that games are owned by companies and cost money to maintain.  Someone has to pay for the game to operate.  So when companies go out of business or games become unprofitable - they close.

As for point 12 - I see you are from Arizona?  I would suggest to you that the consumer laws in your state and country are more at fault here than the games, developers or publishers.  For a remedy to this you should approach your government representatives.  The consumer laws of many other countries already address this.

the EULA will usually be upheld though without some extremely detailed reasoning as to why it shouldnt, as for whether the laws applies outside of the US etc, if the games server is in the US then it would be upheld, as any wrongdoing would in effect have taken place on US soil etc. This is commonly how people are extradited for hacking etc into servers not in their own country after all.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by botrytis
Your bill of rights steps on most of the EULA's that game makers use. Guess who would win in court?

The party the Judge decides makes the best and most reasonable argument depending on the dispute and the circumstances.

Contrary to what many people tend to believe - an EULA is not overriding law.

If an EULA said "We may come to your house and chop your limbs off, at any time, without recourse." that does not mean a Developer could actually do that.

An EULA is a contract.  Contracts are disputed every day, in court.  And US Law does not apply outside the US (as US law)

 

...

the EULA will usually be upheld though without some extremely detailed reasoning as to why it shouldnt, as for whether the laws applies outside of the US etc, if the games server is in the US then it would be upheld, as any wrongdoing would in effect have taken place on US soil etc. This is commonly how people are extradited for hacking etc into servers not in their own country after all.

You don't need to be detailed - it just has to be "unreasonable".

There are a number of parts of EULAs that would be upheld in many countries... although in many cases those parts are also covered by other laws too.  Copyright and anti-piracy for example.

But there are many parts of EULAs that simply don't stand up for many reasons - do a GOOGLE for "EULA court cases" - there are cases on both sides.  It's certainly not a 'slam dunk' for the EULA.

Also, "shrinkwrap" / "clickwrap" / "ticket case" agreements are a very dodgy piece of law even for experts.  Making a user click [I AGREE] does not equal a signature or a 'meeting of the minds'.

As for servers in the US - you are confusing and EULA with a ToS which is a seperate thing.

For example I downloaded some software today which is an MMO client which allows me to "practice offline" - it comes with an EULA which is mostly just about copyright.  I can use that software offline without agreeing to the ToS.  If I want to play online though - I must use the Dev server and for that I need to agree to their ToS which covers my conduct.

And you really shouldn't use words like "extradition" unless you know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by botrytis
Your bill of rights steps on most of the EULA's that game makers use. Guess who would win in court?

The party the Judge decides makes the best and most reasonable argument depending on the dispute and the circumstances.

Contrary to what many people tend to believe - an EULA is not overriding law.

If an EULA said "We may come to your house and chop your limbs off, at any time, without recourse." that does not mean a Developer could actually do that.

An EULA is a contract.  Contracts are disputed every day, in court.  And US Law does not apply outside the US (as US law)

 

To the OP:

I do see your point here, but a few of the things you ask for, like point 4, forget that games are owned by companies and cost money to maintain.  Someone has to pay for the game to operate.  So when companies go out of business or games become unprofitable - they close.

As for point 12 - I see you are from Arizona?  I would suggest to you that the consumer laws in your state and country are more at fault here than the games, developers or publishers.  For a remedy to this you should approach your government representatives.  The consumer laws of many other countries already address this.

 I think you missunderstood this thread??  I found a entiertianing gaming blog that was talking about a essay that was wrote way back in '95 so with this in mind please click on the links to understand why I posted this this thread. I just thought it was a good read and wanted to share this with our group here at the pug. This is by far not my " Bill of Rights" but instead it originated with Graham Nelson all credit needs to be given to him.

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by waynejr2

Where is your list of responsibilities?

You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

 Responsiblities for?? Many things to be responsible for.

Derp.  

Nice post OP.  Nothing I have to say is directed at you.  I'm addressing the ideas presented and you are cool with me.

Well, it is hard for me to imagine that anyone would respect a bill of rights for gamers when they don't respect the political bill of rights for real life.  Even if it protects them.  Just an all around lack of respect centering around, I'm guessing, their own discontentments.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Cephus404

You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

Those are your only rights.

 I disagree, customer service should always be number one with any thing. Why Should I spend any of my money on any MMO game if I feel that I have no rights? I will not.

Then don't.  Bye, we'll get back to playing the game.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Cephus404

You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

Those are your only rights.

 I disagree, customer service should always be number one with any thing. Why Should I spend any of my money on any MMO game if I feel that I have no rights? I will not.

Because it is fun?

Don't play any games .. THAT is your right. Other than that, you don't really have any.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by waynejr2

Where is your list of responsibilities?

You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

 Responsiblities for?? Many things to be responsible for.

Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by waynejr2

Where is your list of responsibilities?

You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

Or how many players, nay, Americans only stare at that phrase thinking "Whut?"

Originally posted by jonrd463

 

Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by jonrd463

 

Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

It's in the laws that society enacts. For example, freedom of speech is a right. Libel and slander are criminal offenses. Another responsibility that goes along with rights is an understanding of how they relate. Otherwise you get "Hey, if it feels good, man, do it!" with an implied "...and damn the consequences!"

I am a TSW player so i can clearly understand the RNG part. That being said however, i do enjoy sometimes having things on this list NOT happen. IF your making a quest based on investigation and Thought you should make the quest unclear. It means that when you figure it out its a accomplishment.  Modern day Questing is simple

1. Accept Quest

2. Follow Quest marker

3. Screw around until you do what your supposed to be doing.

4. Return to Sender.

While i am quite aware that TSW has these aswell, the Investigation quests are a nice breath of fresh air. If i were to do a Sandbox game that included quests, i would probubly not use Quest markers so that people actually have to read and figure out whats going on.

There is a difference between making things unclear and making things Mind Numbing.

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by jonrd463

 

Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

It's in the laws that society enacts. For example, freedom of speech is a right. Libel and slander are criminal offenses. Another responsibility that goes along with rights is an understanding of how they relate. Otherwise you get "Hey, if it feels good, man, do it!" with an implied "...and damn the consequences!"

In that case, there is no responsibility to be educated about politics before we vote, nor anything about gaming.

Show me the law that i have to play games in a certain way.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

"A rational anarchist believes that concepts, such as "state" and "society" and "government" have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame ... as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world ... aware that his efforts will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure."

"Any government will work if authority and responsibility are equal and coordinate. This does not insure "good" government; it simply insures that it will work. But such governments are rare — most people want to run things but want no part of the blame. This used to be called the 'backseat-driver syndrome'."

etc.--headed for some pretty arcane (and boring) conceptualizations.

And no, I don't want to split hairs with you today.

Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

 Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

 Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities?

 The Taxation Clause:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

It means government has a right to collect it with the approval of the Congress, and citizens have a responsibility to pay it, or they will be held accountable by law and powers given to the government to collect such taxes by the Congress.

Try not paying taxes, lol.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities?

 The Taxation Clause:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

It means government has a right to collect it with the approval of the Congress, and citizens have a responsibility to pay it, or they will be held accountable by law and powers given to the government to collect such taxes by the Congress.

 

Try not paying taxes, lol.

I mean the responsibility of being educated before voting, and playing games certain ways. Read the post before to see what "those" refers to.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

 Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

Maybe we can go all American Revolution on their asses and start raiding the buildings until it is implimented.

Originally posted by Rayshe

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

 Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

Maybe we can go all American Revolution on their asses and start raiding the buildings until it is implimented.

Didn't we vote with our time & money already? Do we really have to drag our physical bodies over to their buildings?