Originally posted by ikarrian

My concerns are... The "Haters" if they whine enough, like they usually do. It can cause Zenimax to make bad descision and cause more harm then good to the game.

But I hope it doesnt get to that.

If Zenimax makes bad decisions due to such a small (but vocal) group, then they richly deserve to lose their investment.  One would hope that they have enough experience to ignore such hysterics.  Then of course there are those who are looking for the original DAOC with improved graphics... They are likely more dangerous than the "Haters".  The audience has moved on from that time.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by deakon

Originally posted by sapphen

Marketing garble.  Have you ever heard Todd Howard talk about game design?  I doubt very seriously that ESO has his undying support but why would they say otherwise?  Sorry, I'm not buying the smoke and mirrors.

Wow, just wow!

So now if anyone says anything that doesnt agree with you its just marketing smoke and mirrors? You dont think Todd Howard would back a tes game that isnt everything that previous tes games were? Because i'm pretty sure he was project lead on redguard, another tes spin off that changed the "core" game, granted that game failed but it does show that todd howards "vision" of whats allowed in the tes ip differs from yours

Stop being a tool.  I didn't say 'anything' just what you posted. 

You didnt say it was just marketing smoke and mirrors?

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by ikarrian

My concerns are... The "Haters" if they whine enough, like they usually do. It can cause Zenimax to make bad descision and cause more harm then good to the game.

But I hope it doesnt get to that.

If Zenimax makes bad decisions due to such a small (but vocal) group, then they richly deserve to lose their investment.  One would hope that they have enough experience to ignore such hysterics.  Then of course there are those who are looking for the original DAOC with improved graphics... They are likely more dangerous than the "Haters".  The audience has moved on from that time.

Point of view...

Some think the bad descisions have already been made and are hoping someone corrects them. The hystericals in that situation are the people sticking fingers in their ears singling 'lalala not listenning - still gonna pay for shinnies' when these issues are raised and pointed out.

Again, different points of view.

Originally posted by deakon

Wow, just wow!

So now if anyone says anything that doesnt agree with you its just marketing smoke and mirrors? You dont think Todd Howard would back a tes game that isnt everything that previous tes games were? Because i'm pretty sure he was project lead on redguard, another tes spin off that changed the "core" game, granted that game failed but it does show that todd howards "vision" of whats allowed in the tes ip differs from yours

You didnt say it was just marketing smoke and mirrors?

You said that anytime someone says something I don't agree with it's just marketing smoke and mirrors.  I only said it about the quote you posted.  Therefore you have faulty logic and should go in for maintenance.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by deakon

Wow, just wow!

So now if anyone says anything that doesnt agree with you its just marketing smoke and mirrors? You dont think Todd Howard would back a tes game that isnt everything that previous tes games were? Because i'm pretty sure he was project lead on redguard, another tes spin off that changed the "core" game, granted that game failed but it does show that todd howards "vision" of whats allowed in the tes ip differs from yours

You didnt say it was just marketing smoke and mirrors?

You said that anytime someone says something I don't agree with it's just marketing smoke and mirrors.  I only said it about the quote you posted.  Therefore you have faulty logic and should go in for maintenance.

Well every time someone on the forums take a stance that you dont agree with we are labled not true tes fans, I showed that todd howard (the god of tes) has okayed the the world layout and lore, I've also shown that the main guy behind tes is fine with adding restrictions to the ip, but thats all just marketing bs.

It still ammounts to the same thing and thats if someone doesnt agree with you they are somehow wrong, not a "true" fan or lying.

Originally posted by deakon

Well every time someone on the forums take a stance that you dont agree with we are labled not true tes fans, I showed that todd howard (the god of tes) has okayed the the world layout and lore, I've also shown that the main guy behind tes is fine with adding restrictions to the ip, but thats all just marketing bs.

 

It still ammounts to the same thing and thats if someone doesnt agree with you they are somehow wrong, not a "true" fan or lying.

Just had a thought about the Todd Howard thing that made me laugh...

Matt Firor (MF)"Hey Todd. You read up my plans for the game?"

Todd Howard (TH) "Sure did matt they look great"

MF "Faction locked races, splitting up the world and restricting exploration, Fixed classes, Gated progression, Gear grind....all sound good?"

TH "All sound great...locking exploration, gated content...thumbs up from me"

MF "Great. Well I will call again next week and let you know how things are"

TH "Take care Matt, speak to you next week"

...

TH "Ha! When Matt releases that MMO no fan of TES will like it and I am SURE to get the green light for the next installment of TES as a single player game...God I hate MMO's".

:)

Originally posted by deakon

Well every time someone on the forums take a stance that you dont agree with we are labled not true tes fans, I showed that todd howard (the god of tes) has okayed the the world layout and lore, I've also shown that the main guy behind tes is fine with adding restrictions to the ip, but thats all just marketing bs.

It still ammounts to the same thing and thats if someone doesnt agree with you they are somehow wrong, not a "true" fan or lying.

First of all this isn't about my relationships between 'EVERYONE' here, this is between me and you.  I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me but I do have a problem with people pestering the shit out of me with nonesense generalizations because we disagree.

Originally posted by deakon

"Q: So with two teams, do you guys continually check in with Todd Howard on making sure everything is perfectly within the Elder Scrolls lore?

Matt Firor: In the early days, when it was just me when I was starting the studio up, we spent a lot of time together to go over the basics. Making sure the lore was consistent, how that was going to work, how the team was going to be set up, how the world was going to be set up."

Where in your quote has Todd Howards officially 'okayed' the project?  Working with someone is totally different than giving the okay.  Considering how flimsy some of the faction relations are, I'm sure there was compromises made and they did not release Todd Howard's opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by deakon

Well every time someone on the forums take a stance that you dont agree with we are labled not true tes fans, I showed that todd howard (the god of tes) has okayed the the world layout and lore, I've also shown that the main guy behind tes is fine with adding restrictions to the ip, but thats all just marketing bs.

It still ammounts to the same thing and thats if someone doesnt agree with you they are somehow wrong, not a "true" fan or lying.

First of all this isn't about my relationships between 'EVERYONE' here, this is between me and you.  I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me but I do have a problem with people pestering the shit out of me with nonesense generalizations because we disagree.

Originally posted by deakon

"Q: So with two teams, do you guys continually check in with Todd Howard on making sure everything is perfectly within the Elder Scrolls lore?

Matt Firor: In the early days, when it was just me when I was starting the studio up, we spent a lot of time together to go over the basics. Making sure the lore was consistent, how that was going to work, how the team was going to be set up, how the world was going to be set up."

Where in your quote has Todd Howards officially 'okayed' the project?  Working with someone is totally different than giving the okay.  Considering how flimsy some of the faction relations are, I'm sure there was compromises made and they did not release Todd Howard's opinion on the matter.

Don't try and make out your somehow a victim here, you havent been singled out or even pestered. But you cant make comments like this one (Which is'nt the first, and doubt will be the last):

"I'd be happy if they made two different versions of ESO. One for the DAoC nuts that are thinking it's gonna somehow recreate RvR and then one for the actual TES fans with no faction locks for when the first one fails."

and not expect to be called up on it, you talk about generalizations, yet you have been the king of them.

I get that you dont like some of the things in the game, does that make you less/more of a tes fan than me? No it doesn't

The fact that Todd Howard himself, was responsible for redguard, a linier action game, speaks volumes to how much he is fine with changing what the tes ip "is", you may not want to believe it but people do have different opinions to you, yes even todd howard

Originally posted by deakon

Don't try and make out your somehow a victim here, you havent been singled out or even pestered. But you cant make comments like this one (Which is'nt the first, and doubt will be the last):

"I'd be happy if they made two different versions of ESO. One for the DAoC nuts that are thinking it's gonna somehow recreate RvR and then one for the actual TES fans with no faction locks for when the first one fails."

and not expect to be called up on it, you talk about generalizations, yet you have been the king of them.

HAHA! I liked that one.  I figured you DAoC folks would eat that up.

Originally posted by deakon

I get that you dont like some of the things in the game, does that make you less/more of a tes fan than me? No it doesn't

The fact that Todd Howard himself, was responsible for redguard, a linier action game, speaks volumes to how much he is fine with changing what the tes ip "is", you may not want to believe it but people do have different opinions to you, yes even todd howard

I don't like factions were changed to mimic DAoC RvR system.  I figured if you like it then you're more of a DAoC fan than a TES fan.  Again, why is it so important to you what I think about you?   I'm wondering if you're getting defensive because you're not sure if you're a true TES fan or not.

Oh.. and there is a reason why there was no other spin-offs until ESO.  You assume too much to say that me and  Todd's opinions are different.  Everyone makes mistakes it doesn't mean they support future ones.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by deakon

Don't try and make out your somehow a victim here, you havent been singled out or even pestered. But you cant make comments like this one (Which is'nt the first, and doubt will be the last):

"I'd be happy if they made two different versions of ESO. One for the DAoC nuts that are thinking it's gonna somehow recreate RvR and then one for the actual TES fans with no faction locks for when the first one fails."

and not expect to be called up on it, you talk about generalizations, yet you have been the king of them.

HAHA! I liked that one.  I figured you DAoC folks would eat that up.

What did I need to be "called out on"?  I didn't put words in your mouth - I just stated my opinion.  Feel free to disagree but what are you hoping to accomplish.  You're gonna prove that my definition of a TES fan and yours is different?  Why is it so important to you what I think.. are you seeking approval?

 

Originally posted by deakon

I get that you dont like some of the things in the game, does that make you less/more of a tes fan than me? No it doesn't

The fact that Todd Howard himself, was responsible for redguard, a linier action game, speaks volumes to how much he is fine with changing what the tes ip "is", you may not want to believe it but people do have different opinions to you, yes even todd howard

I don't like factions were changed to mimic DAoC RvR system.  I figured if you like it then you're more of a DAoC fan than a TES fan.  Again, why is it so important to you what I think about you?   I'm wondering if you're getting defensive because you're not sure if you're a true TES fan or not.

Oh.. and there is a reason why there was no other spin-offs until ESO.  You assume too much to say that me and  Todd's opinions are different.  Everyone makes mistakes it doesn't mean they support future ones.

Yes your clearly not trying to put words into anyones mouth. / end sarcasm

Truth is I played DAoC for less than a month and by the time i played it, it was very dated, I didnt get into mmo's until 2004, I've been playing tes games from 2002 (and have played all the previous ones since), faction locked areas does not go against tes as long as there is an explanation in the lore (which there is), same as dragons flying around wasnt a part of any tes game until 5, and oblivion gates popping up randomly wasnt in any apart from 4.

If you feel that there should be no spin off tes games, fine, dont play them, there will still be tes6 to look forward to. Feel free to spout YOUR opinion all you want but don't expect to make out your opinion speaks for every tes fan and then get all defensive because you get called up on it by a tes fan that doesnt agree.

Originally posted by deakon

Yes your clearly not trying to put words into anyones mouth. / end sarcasm

Truth is I played DAoC for less than a month and by the time i played it, it was very dated, I didnt get into mmo's until 2004, I've been playing tes games from 2002 (and have played all the previous ones since), faction locked areas does not go against tes as long as there is an explanation in the lore (which there is), same as dragons flying around wasnt a part of any tes game until 5, and oblivion gates popping up randomly wasnt in any apart from 4.

If you feel that there should be no spin off tes games, fine, dont play them, there will still be tes6 to look forward to. Feel free to spout YOUR opinion all you want but don't expect to make out your opinion speaks for every tes fan and then get all defensive because you get called up on it by a tes fan that doesnt agree.

If you knew nothing of the game, would you have expected (or wanted) faction locks?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well tes single player doesn't have pvp.

So they need a pvp model.

In my opinion there's only 2 worth copying daoc and eve.

I suppose they could have made some sort of pve heaven where you voluntarily flag yourself to get pvped (or lol pickpocketed who the hell is going to voluntarily flag that on)

Or they could have shoved some token mini game shite in like all the wow clones.

I wouldn't play the last two.

Who did DAoC or Eve copy?

That's one thing that frustrates me so much in the MMO industry.  MMO's are too busy asking themselves who should we copy.  Did you ever figure that maybe they could've came up with something that no one else has done.  Why does it have to copy something to be successful?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
If they'd come up with something brand new that would be great.

But IF games are going to copy pvp, daoc and eve are the ones to copy, not bloody wow again and again and again and again.

Of course many people would prefer no pvp at all or severely watered down and meaningless setup akin to EQ or swg. In which case I point them at the massive success that was vanguard ;)

I never said they shouldn't do DAoC type battle in the middle, only that faction locks was not needed to do it.

Me and my team of developers have been tossing around a few ideas.  If we go back to the setting I listed earlier (3 houses instead of 3 racial groups) then there would also be rebellion groups. I would set up battles like skrimishes out in the open world.

For instance if you was a Breton and decided not to join the faction you could PvP with a rebellion group.  They would call the arms and you would meet another group out in the open world and fight it out.  Think of it similar to the battles in Skyrim between the Nords and Imperials.  Instead of battlegrounds you que for, you would go to an area and fight it out with another group of players.

These battles could be between factions and rebellion groups, factions and factions (in and around the borders) and could even be against 2 non-affiliated NPC groups not getting a long with each other.  Larger scale battles like an actual war would be cool as well (two armies and an open field).  Organized open world PvP!  Like in vanilla WoW (or even playing off what they tried to do in Burning Crusade with the smaller skrimishes).

It's not perfect but I'm waiting to hear back from the professions.  I'm sure once they add to it we may could get something cool put together.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well tes single player doesn't have pvp.

So they need a pvp model.

In my opinion there's only 2 worth copying daoc and eve.

I suppose they could have made some sort of pve heaven where you voluntarily flag yourself to get pvped (or lol pickpocketed who the hell is going to voluntarily flag that on)

Or they could have shoved some token mini game shite in like all the wow clones.

I wouldn't play the last two.

Who did DAoC or Eve copy?

That's one thing that frustrates me so much in the MMO industry.  MMO's are too busy asking themselves who should we copy.  Did you ever figure that maybe they could've came up with something that no one else has done.  Why does it have to copy something to be successful?

One of the reasons is all of the risks involved.  First, in designing, then in balancing and then in coding something new.  At each point of the development cycle, you run the risk of delays. Thats especially true with new things.  Delays lead to missed mile stones.

Missed mile stones lead to investor/publisher panic.  Which leads to cut features, and increased pressure on the Dev teams.  Increased pressure tends to lead to more mistakes, thus more delays.  Its a NASTY feed back loop.

Copying something else, sides steps some of the above, but adds in the howls about clones of this, that, or the other.

Given the millions upon millions (of other peoples money) that these games take to create, and the development process involved, the wonder is that things work out, even as well as they do.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well tes single player doesn't have pvp.

So they need a pvp model.

In my opinion there's only 2 worth copying daoc and eve.

I suppose they could have made some sort of pve heaven where you voluntarily flag yourself to get pvped (or lol pickpocketed who the hell is going to voluntarily flag that on)

Or they could have shoved some token mini game shite in like all the wow clones.

I wouldn't play the last two.

Who did DAoC or Eve copy?

That's one thing that frustrates me so much in the MMO industry.  MMO's are too busy asking themselves who should we copy.  Did you ever figure that maybe they could've came up with something that no one else has done.  Why does it have to copy something to be successful?

One of the reasons is all of the risks involved.  First, in designing, then in balancing and then in coding something new.  At each point of the development cycle, you run the risk of delays. Thats especially true with new things.  Delays lead to missed mile stones.

Missed mile stones lead to investor/publisher panic.  Which leads to cut features, and increased pressure on the Dev teams.  Increased pressure tends to lead to more mistakes, thus more delays.  Its a NASTY feed back loop.

Copying something else, sides steps some of the above, but adds in the howls about clones of this, that, or the other.

Given the millions upon millions (of other peoples money) that these games take to create, and the development process involved, the wonder is that things work out, even as well as they do.

I agree to a degree.  Even though they are coping someone they still have to program from scratch to some extent.  They usually try to do unique classes so balancing is different as well.  I would say that it's considered a risk in the MMO market to do something different but the way things have been going lately, I'd say it's no more risky than making something that didn't copy everyone else.  You just can't recreate trends.

It is a wonder things work out as well as they do for some games.  People give GW2 a hard time, and it did have it's short comings, but ESO would be so lucky to have a RvR to work as good as GW2.  At least GW2 has a head start and with time they could do great things.

People keep remembering what they enjoyed from other MMOs and want to see it in other games but rarely do they realize that one of the aspects they fount so enjoyable was it hadn't been done before.