Originally posted by Scalpless

Originally posted by Icewhite

Leveling content seems to require (at least since 03 or so) that all clases be able to level with about the same difficulty.

And therein lies your problem.  Critturs must be built around the lowest common denominator. They're built for a pure healer's damage output. Else the healers and tanks have "no fun" leveling, "painful slow grind". The grass is always greener, as the players will never stop pointing out, and calling for nerfs on the other guy.

No, it's just that most players suck at MMOs.

The lowest common denominator is the player.

Yes, they do indeed, but that point is in addition to the games being balanced around the dps output of WANDS.

In the olden dayze, things weren't built around the idea of Balance first, gameplay second. Some classes just sucked at leveling. We could accept that. It even generated some community, if your guild needed healers, you would group with them, enlightened self-interest.

But it cost Evilcorp some dollars, players QQ and omg my healing priest can't solo (everything) WTF I Quit!!--and Evilcorp couldn't allow that.

Players wanted everything to be soloable, and by any class. They really did, if you forget message boards prior to the dawn of WoW. Several games that predate WoW clearly were developed with the goal of solo friendliness.

Got what you asked for. :shrug:

Once WoW and the rest of the 02-05 batch of titles clearly demonstrated how much money was to be had from those asocial soloers, the rest of the industry quickly followed suit. Again, no surprise.

If you want challenging PvE like old EQ, you should take a look at Vanguard. It's basically the spiritual succesor to old EQ.

Say what you want about its history and all its past issues, but VG still has that old school feel, including what you're talking about. Many folks don't like that, and thus don't like the game, which is fine; but for the folks that do, it's worth it. Not EVERY fight is that hard, but I don't think you'll find a single fight of your appropriate level where you don't have to pay attention and actually think in order to win. And if you start getting into group content, the difficulty ramps up pretty quickly without a good group.

You can't please everyone. There is always the l33t player who finished everything in 3 hours, and there is always the new comer who cannot get through the first boss.

The only good solution is a difficulty option like the monster power in Diablo 3. In D3, every encounter can be difficult if you set MP to max (unless, of course, you have gear worth billions).

Neocron 2 or STALKER online.

Pro and Mature games =)

Well Tera can provide challenging combat if your into action combat, though its mostly based off the harder mobs and all which... can make it a bit subjective.

I think a good game really that keeps the old style combat while making it fresh (granted the game is old) and challenging would be Aion. Aion really does a great job in making combat a challenge in which your really having to react carefully and use your ability to their fullest in order to perform well solo. In dungeons the difficulty is notched up a good deal and you will find yourself having to known your class and work well as a group to do some of the dungeons in the game.

if it means to take ages to kill one mob - Aion from the start, at least to me.

if it means tactical and high end fight: used to be end game zones at GW1 (no idea how it is now) and raids + HM raids at WoW; beside all decent games has end game challenges.

LOTRO combat is not easy either so may be try it (still more decent then Aion, IMO again)

As an old EQ1 vet myself I will make 3 suggestions.

1. TERA. Fun combat mechanics especially in groups. Dungeons and bosses are great. Once you get into your 20s and start hitting BAM outside areas, it will keep you looking over your shoulder because the fights can be very mobile and lead you into other BAMs if your not careful. The lower level solo areas are just blahh.  Playing on a PVP server can help to some degree.

2. GW2 while it may have a silent and fairly unsociable community. The gameplay is fun and fresh and regardless of an above poster saying that people complaining about dynamic event being to hard to solo are just unskilled players. There are some incredibly hard DEs to partake in. Even with a group. Dungeons also take an entirely new  twist, and learning them can be quite a  challenge. I'm still unsure where I sit with the whole everyone is a hybrid but I do enjoy my elementalist. 

3. AION I said back when I played it. That this game reminds me a lot of EQ1 mixed with newer gameplay. If you don't get stuck leveling solo doing grind quests or running the few instances  over and over. The outdoor open group areas can prove to be VERY challenging. So much in fact most people bypass them. If you plan to try them have a good Templar and some good CC ready. 

I throw Vanguard an honorary mention as well. However it is a little more dated,Also while in many ways a lot of the content in the game didnt really seem all that challenging for a good group. There were a few dungeons and places that were an exception. Raids were also pretty intense.

Most games are loaded these days with easy solo oriented content created for  the entitlement crowd  that wants everything handed to them. Even some of the more challenging PVE games will have a hard time giving you exactly what you are looking for. One contributing factor to that is that  mobs roam very little in most games. Also everything is so structured. In EQ you could be In a level  10 area and have a level 30 giant come up behind you and squash you into the dirt.  Games don't have that going on for the most part today, and if they do it's few and far between.

I do believe that it's an excellent marketing bullet, whether it turns out to be factual or not.

If you can convince players your game is the hardc0re game, you can sell it to hubris.

I'm pretty surprised noone has mentioned FFXI in this thread yet. The game has changed quite a bit since the NA release but there has always been challenging content. From CoP back in the day to Legion now.  I think that SE does a good job at bringing challenging content to the game even if they do nerf it to hell after most of the good groups get their gear. 

Originally posted by Dirkin

If you want challenging PvE like old EQ, you should take a look at Vanguard. It's basically the spiritual succesor to old EQ.

Um ... not at all.

Critters die in seconds in Vanguard, at least if you're playing a sorcerer.

Okay, no longer on highlevel, then it takes like 30 sec or something, even on a sorc. Then there even is a chance of death, because Sorc is so damn fragile and if you dont find your defense spells fast enough, you might be toast. Some opponents that are immue to ice (and thus to the slow stuff Sorc has) or sleep (and thus to the only CC Sorc gets) are at least extremely tough, if not impossible to solo.

But I rarely, if ever, fear death on the right classes. Cleric, Disciple, Bear Shaman, Paladin, Dread Knight, Necromancer - these classes are basically unkillable. Blood Mage is close. Monk can fake death everything if its too tough. Rogue and Ranger can sneak around anything if they dont like it. Bards can stay invis and run away at extreme speeds if they dont like something. They also get a lot of CC, and Psionicist get even more. Druid also has quite a bag of tricks available.

OP I would suggest TSW as there is almost no CC (which sucks) that will get you of a bad situation.  As there is no effective CC, you have to be very aware of your surroundings and your pulls.  Also the mob density in parts of the game is quite high.  I think this along with the story are the highlights of the game.

I too wish for a day that PvE content was sorta challenging.  I've had a few good moments in GW2 with champion bosses, but the devs have the game locked down so tight there is no room for thinking outside the box and getting creative.  Someday a smaller dev will give some freedom back to the gamers and let us come up with creative uses of the abilities (FD pulling, pet pulling, aggro bouncing).   These mechanics were challenging because if the mob got to you it was game over.

Hopefully preparation will someday also become a bit more significant.  Planning pulls and setting up buffs prior to fighting.  I also miss loot from specific types of mobs being important.  GW2 went halfway there by having crafting mats drop off certain types of mobs but they still use the boring ass universal loot table for everything not crafting releating.  Give me a reason to kill some types of mobs.  With GW2 everyone that does significant damage to a mob gets the loot feature, spawn stealing would not be an issue.

I'm not sure that there are any games out there that really fit the EQ1 mold of difficulty and freedom to get creative with the mechanics of the game.  Here's pulling for that smaller dev that will have the guts to make an updated EQ1 type game.

Edit:  I see everyone saying Vanguard.  It may be a bit more challenging than some of the other recent MMO's but it's not anywhere near the level of EQ1.  Not to mention the game feels half finished and highly unpolished.  Great game world though.

There is little chalange in pvp gear, put on your simple robes and equip your low level sowrd, see if that increase your chalange.

What do you mean by challange?

Can you avoid hits by using terain, cover behind objects, moving around, aiming to hit, using your creativity? most games use this locked culculated system, where you gear-up and equip you restoration potions, you get hit even behind objects.

Challange is pure freedom without lock-on skills and a simple gear.

The most challenging for me is actually wow or gw2.  Try to do some of the instance solo where it suppose to be done by 5 man is quite difficult.

I always remember one of those you tube video where a warlock try to solo one of those heroic dungeon in wow a few years ago.  I try to replicate what he does and I simply can't do it.  The timing have to be perfect to kite the way he does.

That being said most of the 5 man dungeon in those game isn't soloable.  Just like when people talk about those "other games", many of the mobs are pretty much not soloable.  So that is what make them tough, you can't solo them.  I mean I played darkfall, and those mob pretty much isn't soloable.  Maybe they will be when I get more skill or stats or weapon etc.  But I pretty much do many of them... I didn't get very far in that game.

Originally posted by znaiika

There is little chalange in pvp gear, put on your simple robes and equip your low level sowrd, see if that increase your chalange.

 

What do you mean by challange?

Can you avoid hits by using terain, cover behind objects, moving around, aiming to hit, using your creativity? most games use this locked culculated system, where you gear-up and equip you restoration potions, you get hit even behind objects.

Challange is pure freedom without lock-on skills and a simple gear.

Challenging is when, your group is knee deep in mobs and roamed comes along right when you have a runner. The runner gets away and pulls 4 more mobs while your group is low on mana , and the mobs your fighting will 2 or 3 shot  anyone but the tank.

challenging is actually learning now to pull complicated rooms where a mistake means death to the entire group and possibly other groups in the area..

random spawns, and roaming mobs which most games don't  use often these days can go a long way to add challenging  OVE