Originally posted by BadSpock

So I kept hearing and reading over and over that Thief is a terrible profession... glass cannons, suck in PvP, suck in PvE... etc. etc.

Ummm really?

**snip***

So am I just doing something right or are people just really underestimating Thieves?

Thief also seems fun in PvE, very fast very mobile and high damage - but I'm still really low level.

Welcome to the thief, perhaps one of the most broken / overpowered classes in the game.

When people complain about thieves, it's because they can't just walk through damage like it doesn't even matter (guardians, eles). However, what thieves get in return is bascially the ability to not get hit, which is obviously good. Thanks to the stealth mechanic (and the crazy number of ways a thief can enter stealth), thief is literally the only class atm that can literally not be killed, provided the person playing them is at least decent.

Thieves, to this day, are able to dance around inside of zergs for upwards of an hour undying. They are able to permastealth inside of keeps easily (a bug I hope gets fixed). They are able to skip large parts of dungeons without relying on consumable items. They have the highest amount of single target damage, coupled with a surprisingly strong AoE (clusterbomb / trickshot).

- Thanks to how the class is designed, thieves also get high damage, nearly infinite initiative, condition removal, regen, and max mobility all from using stealth. The only real tradeoff you'll have to make as a thief is if you want to do max burst (20k+ dmg in 1 hit), or less burst over a few hits (3-8k dmg repeatedly), yet have rediculous survivability.

Thieves are literally the only class in the game atm who have complete control over the outcome of a fight. It is literally always their fight to lose, and when played well, the most an opponent can actually do is delay the outcome.

Yes I have an 80 thief (fully geared), no i dont play him much anymore, because I honestly found the class too easy. You can't get away with button mashing against stronger opponents Spock, but you can basically win most fights using a fairly small number of skills. I can't say that about really any of the other classes I've played (which is pretty much all of them but ranger).

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by BadSpock

So I kept hearing and reading over and over that Thief is a terrible profession... glass cannons, suck in PvP, suck in PvE... etc. etc.

Ummm really?

**snip***

So am I just doing something right or are people just really underestimating Thieves?

Thief also seems fun in PvE, very fast very mobile and high damage - but I'm still really low level.

Welcome to the thief, perhaps one of the most broken / overpowered classes in the game.

When people complain about thieves, it's because they can't just walk through damage like it doesn't even matter (guardians, eles). However, what thieves get in return is bascially the ability to not get hit, which is obviously good. Thanks to the stealth mechanic (and the crazy number of ways a thief can enter stealth), thief is literally the only class atm that can literally not be killed, provided the person playing them is at least decent.

Thieves, to this day, are able to dance around inside of zergs for upwards of an hour undying. They are able to permastealth inside of keeps easily (a bug I hope gets fixed). They are able to skip large parts of dungeons without relying on consumable items. They have the highest amount of single target damage, coupled with a surprisingly strong AoE (clusterbomb / trickshot).

- Thanks to how the class is designed, thieves also get high damage, nearly infinite initiative, condition removal, regen, and max mobility all from using stealth. The only real tradeoff you'll have to make as a thief is if you want to do max burst (20k+ dmg in 1 hit), or less burst over a few hits (3-8k dmg repeatedly), yet have rediculous survivability.

Thieves are literally the only class in the game atm who have complete control over the outcome of a fight. It is literally always their fight to lose, and when played well, the most an opponent can actually do is delay the outcome.

Yes I have an 80 thief (fully geared), no i dont play him much anymore, because I honestly found the class too easy. You can't get away with button mashing against stronger opponents Spock, but you can basically win most fights using a fairly small number of skills. I can't say that about really any of the other classes I've played (which is pretty much all of them but ranger).

You are exaggerating quite a bit here.  As a tanky Ranger a thief has never bursted me for over 14k over a period of 5 seconds much less 20k+ dmg on 1 hit.  That might be possible against a glass cannon.  If a thief specs into survivability they lack the burst to go through my sustain because they tend to sit in stealth and try to heal up and simply put Ranger does it faster, and they lack the burst to kill a Tanky Ranger.  If they go glass cannon, the Ranger wolf pet will knock them down for 2 seconds (even if they haven't culled on my screen) allowing me to burst them down with quickness and follow up with another wolf knockdown for an easy 4k damage + 4 seconds of straight meleeing them.  Ranger evasion on sword and GS prevents a huge portion of damage they would otherwise deal to you especially if they aren't using a Basilisk Venom opener (which most aren't) and is more frequent than their initiative can recharge and it's easy to spot if you are hitting them regardless of them being in stealth or not.  At worst, they can pester you for obscenely long periods of time by opening on your then immediately running away and repeating this over and over again.  A tanky Ranger running a melee build should never lose to a 1v1 to a thief.

On my Engineer it works a bit differently.  I run full glass cannon and I survive the initial burst through invulnerability and the thief winds up doing a lot of damage to themselves due to retaliation and ridiculous burst damage from Engineer kits in close.  The sheer amount of ground targetted spammable AoEs the engineer has makes it hard even for a stealthed thief to do damage.  Fantastic CC let's you put on more hurt to the thief.  I'd imagine if you run tank on an Engineer a thief wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to them either.

A thief may be able to dance around zergs, but chances are they aren't doing much by doing so.  If a thief gets close AoE spam will kill them faster than pretty much any profession (aside from Daggerstorm they lack any damage avoidance found on any other class) and on higher tier servers people tend to stack and spam AoE in melee range.  The changes a few patches ago that made it so you can't contest points while stealthed makes remaining stealthed by a zerg and not dealing any damage fairly pointless too.

Again, I think they might be slightly overpowered but they are hardly the most broken overpowered class in the game.  That goes to Guardian (flat out ridiculous in every aspect and every area of the game minus mobility) followed by Warrior and Engineer.  Thief is more a nuisance then a game changer these professions can be.

Thiefs are very limited in what they can do, and what they can do is burst glass cannons and thats pretty much it.

Oh, and they can almost always run away (as if thats any consolation).

Anyway, ele is better than a thief in any sense except bursting glass cannons. It takes a bit longer to master, but it pays off in the end, be it sPvP, tPvP or WvWvW (tPvP is now running 2 eles, no thieves for instance).

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

Originally posted by eyelolled
thief is definately one of my favorite classes, and I think it's the only class on par with the warrior for survivability. Don't play much PvP, so my comments are directed towards PvE mainly.

Ha, I finally get to disagree with you on something :)

Only class on par with warrior for survivability haha...well I guess Guardian and Elementalist (D/D) are rated a tier above warrior then. Thought it was a given Guardian had more survivability, and nothing takes more hits in WvW than a D/D ele.  I'm always the last one standing playing either two of those classes in dungeons/fractals/any other pve with guild or pugs. Havinga Boon Guard that has Protection (-33% dam) and 2-3 other boons nearly 100% of the time makes a huge difference. If you haven't played either of these, then you should for comparion sake :)

Thieves are good at escaping/running away in general via stealth, pretty much abandoning the team to save themselves (if there is one), not surviving hurts. They're pretty good at getting picking up other players too, with the stealth abilities.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

I find variations on this build: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-12-20-12 to be the most exciting, lots of movement, dodge, action, boons, class in the game to play.

If you haven't tried an d/d ele like that in dungeons/WvW or whatever, then you should at least go that route once to get a feel of the possibilities others may be speaking of :)

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

I find variations on this build: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-12-20-12 to be the most exciting, lots of movement, dodge, action, boons, class in the game to play.

If you haven't tried an d/d ele like that in dungeons/WvW or whatever, then you should at least go that route once to get a feel of the possibilities others may be speaking of :)

A well played DD ele is a sight to behold in PvE as well as PvP.  I tried playing it but got to level 26 and couldnt do it any more.  Not a fan of constantly switching attunements like that.  I like a class mechanics that are more situational instead of something to be pressed in a rotation.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

I find variations on this build: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-12-20-12 to be the most exciting, lots of movement, dodge, action, boons, class in the game to play.

If you haven't tried an d/d ele like that in dungeons/WvW or whatever, then you should at least go that route once to get a feel of the possibilities others may be speaking of :)

A well played DD ele is a sight to behold in PvE as well as PvP.  I tried playing it but got to level 26 and couldnt do it any more.  Not a fan of constantly switching attunements like that.  I like a class mechanics that are more situational instead of something to be pressed in a rotation.

i actually came to same conclusion with my ele.. got to 40 on mine but overall just didn't care for worring about swapping attunments and if i didn't constantly swap I felt like i wasn't playing the class to its potential.. Its a class with a ton of options though and people who like to use a lot of abilities should enjoy it.. for me the other classes are more enjoyable for now.. ill probably come back to my ele down the road though

Originally posted by Elikal

Nice to see you again BadSpock. ^^

Being bored and trying the interesting mechanics of Thief myself, giving GW2 another shot, I found the ABSOLUTE opposite. Outside of Necro I have played all classes to 30 at least now, and I found Thief the weakest, worst, easiest to die, hardest to play class. I know from PVP some people seem to master it and they are GODS. I have experienced Thieves wiping 3, 4 or 5 people in WVW all alone.

But for me... I feel like I started to play computer games yesterday. I played my Thief to 33 or so... but still. Health drops like silly, despite me putting much into survivability. When I try to stealth out of combat, I get stunned, AOE killed, and those meager 3 sec dont help RATS ASS. So for me, it's like trying to learn Chinese or Quantum Physics. It's like a pain in the ass to play, and not of the fun sort, I tell ya.

Alas, since I capped my warrior, Thief would be the only interesting class, but I cant play it even if my damn life dependet on it. :(

 

Maybe I am just getting old. When I play a while, I simply begin to forget you can dodge attacks. I KNOW you can, I do it for a while, but after half an hour or so, I stop dodging, and I dont even realize it, just I mount frustration and in hindsight I realize I stopped this GW2 typica dodge and roll stuff.

Sigh.

I really need MMOs where people are forced to stand still and which has auto-face. Everything else simply overwhelms me. Always has. Always will.

I think you might like ArcheAge ;-)   Thats what Im waiting for.

Though admit like Spock and others I snuck a log-on the past few days and have *slowly* been levelling my warrior.  Still feel the game (world) is shallow but does maintain my attention in short spurts.

Originally posted by BadSpock

So I kept hearing and reading over and over that Thief is a terrible profession... glass cannons, suck in PvP, suck in PvE... etc. etc.

Ummm really?

I starting playing sPvP really for this first time this past weekend.

I'm absolutely rolling on people left and right as a Thief.

And this is jumping in to a maxed out 80 in sPvP and for the most part mashing buttons!

I didn't even swap out any of the starter gear or weapon sets.

Dual dagger and dual pistol.

Build is...

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY6alUmaOHfy9E+5EyWhdy7BZNWgl2DaqBxJA

Something like that. It's a build based on Stealth and I can do massive burst with Stealing + Bleeds. And it has the tools to help allies in a pinch and turn the tide of a battle, and most importantly get away even with 2-3 people on me I can sneak away and find allies.

So am I just doing something right or are people just really underestimating Thieves?

Thief also seems fun in PvE, very fast very mobile and high damage - but I'm still really low level.

Well an OP thief doesn't sound any better than a glass cannon thief to me..... is there a 3rd option?

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

I find variations on this build: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-12-20-12 to be the most exciting, lots of movement, dodge, action, boons, class in the game to play.

If you haven't tried an d/d ele like that in dungeons/WvW or whatever, then you should at least go that route once to get a feel of the possibilities others may be speaking of :)

Yep actually did a build very similar.  Just got bored with the game as a whole.

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by grimal

Spock - you back to playing this game?  I launched it up yesterday to do the latest updates, got on my 62 ele...spammed 1-5 a few times then just logged off.  Couldn't find the drive.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but did you take the time to learn what the skills do? Primary, secondary, sometimes tertiary effects? For each attunement? Did you swap attunements and take advantages of the synergies you can get that way? At level 62 you have your utilities and elites as well, you didn't use them at all? It sounds like an ele may not be for you to be honest... like the play style for them bores you. You may want to consider a different profession... they all play markedly different from one another. The three "squishies" (a misnomer here, eles and necros are quite durable actually) all play dramatically different, so if you want a caster style you could choose necro or mesmer for a unique means of play.

 

Just some thoughts.

Yes I did.

Just didnt find it that exciting.

I find variations on this build: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-12-20-12 to be the most exciting, lots of movement, dodge, action, boons, class in the game to play.

If you haven't tried an d/d ele like that in dungeons/WvW or whatever, then you should at least go that route once to get a feel of the possibilities others may be speaking of :)

lol good tips but you must understand who it is your trying to help bro.

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by eyelolled
thief is definately one of my favorite classes, and I think it's the only class on par with the warrior for survivability. Don't play much PvP, so my comments are directed towards PvE mainly.

Ha, I finally get to disagree with you on something :)

Only class on par with warrior for survivability haha...well I guess Guardian and Elementalist (D/D) are rated a tier above warrior then. Thought it was a given Guardian had more survivability, and nothing takes more hits in WvW than a D/D ele.  I'm always the last one standing playing either two of those classes in dungeons/fractals/any other pve with guild or pugs. Havinga Boon Guard that has Protection (-33% dam) and 2-3 other boons nearly 100% of the time makes a huge difference. If you haven't played either of these, then you should for comparion sake :)

Thieves are good at escaping/running away in general via stealth, pretty much abandoning the team to save themselves (if there is one), not surviving hurts. They're pretty good at getting picking up other players too, with the stealth abilities.

Rangers have the highest overall survivability in the game in my opinion, too bad 99% of the Rangers think they are a damage class (in which they are the lowest in the game) and don't run melee builds.

Highest sustain / best tank solo:  Elementalist, they also have high mobility with D/D, can provide protection for damage absorption.  Great condition removal too.  Overall they are the hardest class to kill solo (a good one anyway), but don't absorb or avoid damage better than other professions.

Highest base tanking stats:  Warrior, they have really great invulnerability with endure pain too.

Most invulnerability:  Engineer, they can get 13 seconds straight invulnerability (shield block, elixir, elixir trigger at 25%, savnir runes).  They aren't really that tanky beyond that though and generally have some weak condition removal.

Most overall health:  Necromancer, their tanking elite is really good, but they are actually really squishy compared to other classes, so don't let the high health fool you.

Best avoidance:  Ranger, they have 3 on demand evades on short cooldown with sword/dagger and their greatsword autoattack evades.  They also have good means of getting vigor + another evade utility if they want it.  Best quickness in the game paired with their weapons makes them evade even more.  They have really great condition removal, self sustain (4 personal leaps into their water field, wild passive), decent mobility, and 6 seconds of invulnerability, and 30 seconds of stability.

Well rounded:  Guardian, they provide loads of control, protection, sustain, condition removal, blocks, a bit of invuln.  They are hard to kill for sure.  I'd rate them just below Elementalist.

Best mobility / escape:  Thief (for reasons stated in this thread above).

Personal opinion on order of classes by survivability:

1.  Ranger

2.  Elementalist

3.  Guardian

4.  Warrior

5.  Engineer

6.  Thief

7.  Necromancer

8.  Mesmer

Originally posted by Magnum2103

Originally posted by Eluldor
snip

Rangers have the highest overall survivability in the game in my opinion, too bad 99% of the Rangers think they are a damage class (in which they are the lowest in the game) and don't run melee builds.

Highest sustain / best tank solo:  Elementalist, they also have high mobility with D/D, can provide protection for damage absorption.  Great condition removal too.  Overall they are the hardest class to kill solo (a good one anyway), but don't absorb or avoid damage better than other professions.

Highest base tanking stats:  Warrior, they have really great invulnerability with endure pain too.

Most invulnerability:  Engineer, they can get 13 seconds straight invulnerability (shield block, elixir, elixir trigger at 25%, savnir runes).  They aren't really that tanky beyond that though and generally have some weak condition removal.

Most overall health:  Necromancer, their tanking elite is really good, but they are actually really squishy compared to other classes, so don't let the high health fool you.

Best avoidance:  Ranger, they have 3 on demand evades on short cooldown with sword/dagger and their greatsword autoattack evades.  They also have good means of getting vigor + another evade utility if they want it.  Best quickness in the game paired with their weapons makes them evade even more.  They have really great condition removal, self sustain (4 personal leaps into their water field, wild passive), decent mobility, and 6 seconds of invulnerability, and 30 seconds of stability.

Well rounded:  Guardian, they provide loads of control, protection, sustain, condition removal, blocks, a bit of invuln.  They are hard to kill for sure.  I'd rate them just below Elementalist.

Best mobility / escape:  Thief (for reasons stated in this thread above).

Personal opinion on order of classes by survivability:

1.  Ranger

2.  Elementalist

3.  Guardian

4.  Warrior

5.  Engineer

6.  Thief

7.  Necromancer

8.  Mesmer

Interesting reasoning behind everything. Didn't know that about Engis. Have you played a mesmer? because some of the ones I run with think that and their clones/illusions can take a lot of hits and would rank themselves higher up. I haven't played the class too much myself.

My Ranger build was melee traps and then longbow dps, but I started gathering gear in order to take hits. They do have that vigor/dodge bonus, but other than that I haven't looked to much into their defensive trait fields.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah I've already got a Guardian at 80 - which I don't like in WvW or sPvP.

Who knows, maybe my Thief will just stay in the Heart of the Mists 24/7 and by my pure sPvP toon.

But I'm still trying to find a good Guardian build for WvW and dungeons/open world.

Here's my Guardian Build and it's amazing for PvE content.  Group support with decent damage.

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7g-Z;1RF-40L3RG-90;9;5ETJ4;11;045A18R

Wearing all Pow/Tough/Vit armow and Knight's jewlery.

Want to say THANK YOU I am really enjoying this build on my Guardian and the Greatsword/Staff combo.

I just really got into Orr last night and did some exploring and dynamic events etc. and I felt like my Guardian was a great asset to those around me, yet I could still solo down a mob or two (or a Veteran for a Skill Challenge) without too much trouble.

I found recently that I only really enjoy WvW when it's small group versus small group, not a fan at all of running with the zerg. And honestly, because of that, I greatly prefer sPvP to WvW.

So I'll probably continue using my Thief for sPvP for my stabb'n fix and continue doing PvE and maybe occasionally WvW with my Guardian.

Thanks again all!

There are many dungeons I have not seen but I'll probably wait till after next big patch with dungeon fixes. I'd also really, really love to see an in-game LFG tool that was widely utilized for dungeons.

The need is obviously there as people use a 3rd party website now.

I've got a lot of Karma to gain for my first Exotic set, and a lot of mats to farm to level my crafting skills up to make Exotics for myself.