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General Gaming  » Bethesda has never really made a good game.

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65 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 9:35:00 AM#41
Well depends on game

Fallout3 isn't as good as the non bethseda fallout 1 & 2
New Vegas is an improvement upon fo3
Morrowind is a classic, a game that set a mold for a new style of rpg.
Oblivion introduced the horrible console interface and is more linear and generic than morrowind
Skyrim is a modern classic, it brings back some of the magic of Morrowind, and is the first tes game to get the leveling system right, still has the horrid console UI though. Yay for pc centric UI with a hotbar in TESO.
  Destai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 419

2/04/13 9:37:29 AM#42
Originally posted by calranthe

What they have always done is create a framework for us to create an amazing game and sandbox.

I think the above is my real issue with ESO Oblivon skyrim and morrowind were bugged to hell and created using low res reduced detail and generic stuff BUT the tools were there for players and modders to use that framework to create amazing things.

I am not just talking content I am talking updated textures and models, clothing and items, stories and entire world redos.

Even the sex mods created a whole new set of non adult specific mods to do with hires clothings and skins.

Extended script systems and animation, detailed life systems for animals and players, complete vampire and werewolf races with powers and cycles.

All these things before and beside the dlc the company came out with.

My morrowind game has 217 mods about 15gb of data and still works 1904 hours on my latest save game

My oblivion game has 130 mods about 22gb of extra data 1205 hours on my latest playthrough.

My Skyrim game has 76 mods about 17gb of extra data 604 hours on my latest playthrough.

Now I know mmo games are different but if the debacle with SWTOR and remember how hyped we were after seeing that very first CGI?

You could not realisticly ever live upto that hype and then TSO comes out with a heart pumping CGI and could it really ever live up to it, for what is essentially with variance a wow/doac Elderscrolls reskin cross.

Just like Most Elder scrolls players can not expect anything like the true spirit of the single player game in the mmo.

Really I just feel TSO should not have been done and it may be a success but it will never be elder scrolls.

You can't expect the same results with this game. First off, Bethesda is involved through consulting. Zenimax is the developer. However, consider that many of those systems and mods are an attempt to make the game resemble an MMO, at least at first glance. They're adding quests, schedules, crafting, etc. These features exist in an MMO.

Honestly, it's getting annoying hearing people complain about MMOs being generic. MMOs have quests, skillbars, raids, classes, races. Graphics won't be stellar. The game is what you make it. It sounds like you don't like MMOs.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16607

2/04/13 9:38:19 AM#43
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by Sovrath
 

I'll have to disagree. I would say that Bethesda (the company that is not making ESO) isn't great at details of story but quite frankly, mods, with the exception of those that fix the bugs (that bethesda should be fixing) only change the flavor of the game for  the players who want a particular flavor.

There is not one mod out there (again other than bug fixing) that I think is essential.

Armor mods are nice but they range from expanding the armor choices to down right ridiculous.

Tweaks are nice but those are just adding "spice" to the player's taste. The animaition mods don't change the game for the better but for the different. One might like them more but I it's really only an aesthetic choice.

The idea of mods allow players to sway the game in a way that the player might enjoy but the core of each game stands.

Bethesda's offerings are games that allow player choice (to a certain extent) and that's their talent. And since the majority of elder scrolls playes don't have access to mods the point at the moment is sort of moot.

 

 

Interesting an actual post on the subject at hand, while I can agree with your opinion on the bug fix patches and mods that came out, I do believe you are doing a disservice playing down all the rest.

By your side of the discussion any change made to any game other than those by a developer is just personal slant and sway.

Lets take oblivion and discount all the mods that were bug fixes and script extensions, we should also take out of the equation the graphical updates and mods that make oblivion look as good if not better than skyrim, weather mods and lore races created, towns and cities redone to bring them more alive, code to allow guards in cities to actually have lives, to eat food at break times and a family to go home to,  ordered life mods that have animals with breeding cycles young and territory.

Nomad adventurers and tribes, skirmishes and wars.

In my morrowind game there is an npc who has a grudge against my character and has been hunting me for the last 5 years who breaks into my house sometimes or kills off someone I am suposed to be questing for.

Modders have brough so much more to the table.

I'll disagree to a point.

Those "graphical updates" aren't always great. In some cases they do huge disservice to the game. The problem with "graphic update mods, is that in some cases they change the flavor of the art assets to something the modder would prefer and in other cases they completely take away any sense of cohesion.

I'm currently playing Morrowind and Skyrim. I'm using the MGO for Morrowind and though it's a great job at its heart, it's an artistic mess. You have bottles and plates that look like they are from one game and chests that look like they are from another. The updated textures for armor can be nice but then you look at things like the rocks or stone and it's too "high def" and doesn't look like it belongs in the world at hand. It's as if someone took a picture and slapped the texture on the side of a building without thinking how it needs to look like it's part of the rest of the textures around it.

I'm not saying that the modders didn't do a great job but anyone with a professional eye can see that a greater sense of cohesion needs to be brought to the table to create a decent look to the whole. Not to mention that a lot of the fog seems removed so you can see the checkered tapestry of all the different areas fromn on high. This takes away the feeling of a huge world allowing for the new areas to gradually come into focus as you approach them and creates a stark contrast from one area to another allowing for the illusion of a huge world to be stripped away.

For some reason some players hunger for high fidelity but aren't sensitive enough to realize that there is an artistic whole that needs to be addressed.

That is a harsh criticism which is only necessary when players say "oh, modders have saved these games". Modders have added amazing things but I don't believe they have "saved" anything. Vanialla morrowind might look dated but it does work as a visual whole. for my tastes the MGO adds a lot of nice things that flavor the game in a way that I like (and in some ways that I don't) but I say it's different not better.

I will give a shout out to aMidiborn armors for skyrim. He does an amazing job of creating very detailed work that fits in with the game. However, that's "flavor" not "saving" the game or necessarily making better as the original textures do work. The weather mods sometimes don't work well as they will "suddenly" stop or suddenly start. But agian, that's flavoring not "better or worse" as the weather in skyrim is fine the way it is.

Most of those race mods are nice but in no way fit in artistically with the other races. In some cases it looks like you plopped a character from a different game into skyrim.

Again, the work the do is great but it adds flavor. The game is very much playable even though, say "realistic lighting" isn't there. I prefer realsitic  lighting but it doesn't make the game "better" just different. There are reason the devs have made these design decisions. It's not because they don't want to make the most realistic game out there. It's because they need to make a game that runs on many computers.

So I love mods but they are not what makes these games work. The games work fine on their own.

  calranthe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 358

 
OP  2/04/13 9:38:52 AM#44
Originally posted by Adokas
 

Yet there is one simple detail you're missing.

This is an MMO, not a single player Elder Scrolls game.

Yes it is but why not innovate, yes it is more of a challenge, we have seen that most people really do not want generic copies of past mmo games, we want something different.

Real time combat can be possible, choice pvp + phasing has proven if used right and expanded on it does not break the game or enjoyment.

Skyrim and oblivion use instanced housing so that really is not an issue.

Exploration and the journey to max level or no actual max level just a graduated xp system based on skills and events would not please the "end game" crowd but sucks to be them anyway.

None of the above are impossible for an mmo.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 9:41:05 AM#45
Be careful what you wish for. You try and make a mmo too much like the single player rpg experience - you get swtor. A weak single player game hampered by mmo features and a piss poor awful "mm"o.
  calranthe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 358

 
OP  2/04/13 9:41:16 AM#46
Originally posted by deakon
If mods are so essencial to enjoy tes games why are far more tes games sold/played on console where you cant mod at all?

I would love to see figures to back this up and also stats showing how many console players are still playing there copy of oblivion 7 years later and finding fresh content.

  calranthe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 358

 
OP  2/04/13 9:42:27 AM#47
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Be careful what you wish for. You try and make a mmo too much like the single player rpg experience - you get swtor. A weak single player game hampered by mmo features and a piss poor awful "mm"o.

SWTOR was still generic mmo hotbar tab combat and a reskin of wow except for the story and voice work

  Adokas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 205

2/04/13 9:43:08 AM#48
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by Adokas
 

Yet there is one simple detail you're missing.

This is an MMO, not a single player Elder Scrolls game.

Yes it is but why not innovate, yes it is more of a challenge, we have seen that most people really do not want generic copies of past mmo games, we want something different.

Real time combat can be possible, choice pvp + phasing has proven if used right and expanded on it does not break the game or enjoyment.

Skyrim and oblivion use instanced housing so that really is not an issue.

Exploration and the journey to max level or no actual max level just a graduated xp system based on skills and events would not please the "end game" crowd but sucks to be them anyway.

None of the above are impossible for an mmo.

I'd argue that innovation does not always need to be sought. Sure, it's nice. But gamers are fickle beings. We tend to get upset at nothing. Including innovation.

If ESO brings to the table what it looks to be doing, I'll be quite happy with it personally. DAoC type of PvP is great in my opinion, and I can definitely imagine it in an ESO setting.

Would I like housing? Yeah, definitely, and I'm certainly disappointed there won't be housing. But all the other stuff, it might be possible, sure. But the task of balancing it all would be incredibly daunting and immense, if you were to build it like a single player ES game. There HAS to be some limits.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 9:43:49 AM#49
Hmm last I the checked "choice pvp", voluntarily flagging yourself and shit, that was a feature of star wars galaxy not the elder scrolls.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16607

2/04/13 9:47:00 AM#50
Originally posted by Adokas
 

I'd argue that innovation does not always need to be sought. Sure, it's nice. But gamers are fickle beings. We tend to get upset at nothing. Including innovation.

This is very true.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 9:47:03 AM#51
Daoc has better housing than tes.

It's zoned not instanced, you can build your house next door to your friends.
  deakon

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/04/13 9:48:38 AM#52
Originally posted by calranthe

Okay lets derail this threads with facts

3 realm conflict was first done successfully in an mmo called DaoC, it is slightly more than a minor aspect of ESO and thus calling in to question the innovation and motives of the man being asked to do an ESO game is valid

He has stated right from the start no housing in ESO housing as any player of ES games will know is a core part of the adventure, yes mmo limitations and all that.

A CGI that in no way in this reality anyone should expect the game to be like that just like the SWTOR CGI trap caused.

ES has always been about immersive combat without the kind of leveling and hotbar mmo generic.

Also it has been stated that the game really begins when you reach level 50 I do not know about you but I have never played an elder scrolls game where my first aim was to get to max level.

He talks about exploration but in the same breath segregation, levels and area limits.

All of those things were in DaoC

All of those things are NOT ES

Hotbars cooldowns limits not ES

At level one in any ES game you could if you did not sleep explore the entire world and every mountain you could see you could explore till you hit the out of bounds line.

 

1) 3 realm conflict, your correct not been in tes games before, but then again niether has pvp and if we could only have things that previous games have had we wouldnt have had dragons in skyrim etc

 

2) player owned housing didnt come into tes games until oblivion

 

3) cgi trailers are pretty standard for most games these days, theyre not exactly indicative of a bad game

 

4) this isnt true, skyrim/oblivion does have a hotbar its just hidden and arena was just xp based not skill based, teso will have both skill based leveling and xp based

 

5) the game opening up at 50 is just marketing speak for "we have end game...honest", its a statement that needs to be said because most mmo's lack in this department at launch

  calranthe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 358

 
OP  2/04/13 9:49:38 AM#53
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by calranthe
 

You can't expect the same results with this game. First off, Bethesda is involved through consulting. Zenimax is the developer. However, consider that many of those systems and mods are an attempt to make the game resemble an MMO, at least at first glance. They're adding quests, schedules, crafting, etc. These features exist in an MMO.

Honestly, it's getting annoying hearing people complain about MMOs being generic. MMOs have quests, skillbars, raids, classes, races. Graphics won't be stellar. The game is what you make it. It sounds like you don't like MMOs.

You can't expect but I do.

I play a lot of mmo games, I still actually run a mud (precursor to mmo) that has been running for 15 years now, the lack of innovation and use of popular IP is destroying the genre.

We expect less so we get less.

I play Star Trek online and pay subscription because the space combat is fun, the changes since launch and conten is amazing

I play EVE online as my only pvp game

I play TSW for the storyline and content

I play Champions oline because the changes since launch are great and I miss my make a costume fetish :)

So actually I love the mmo genre it just seems to be dumbing itself down more and more.

I see ESO like the american version of Godzilla anyone who knows the toho version and brand knows what I mean.

 

  deakon

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/04/13 9:51:41 AM#54
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by deakon
If mods are so essencial to enjoy tes games why are far more tes games sold/played on console where you cant mod at all?

I would love to see figures to back this up and also stats showing how many console players are still playing there copy of oblivion 7 years later and finding fresh content.

Only 14% of skyrim sales were pc

link

  User Deleted
2/04/13 9:52:30 AM#55
lol @OP
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16607

2/04/13 9:58:05 AM#56
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by deakon
If mods are so essencial to enjoy tes games why are far more tes games sold/played on console where you cant mod at all?

I would love to see figures to back this up and also stats showing how many console players are still playing there copy of oblivion 7 years later and finding fresh content.

Only 14% of skyrim sales were pc

link

Thank you.

I've been saying this for quite some time. Bethesda wants to expand mods to console players but the truth is that mods are a pc centric thing and the pc sales are dwarfed by the console sales. I find that a shame but the truth is most players of Elderscrolls games don't get access to mods. It's not part of their regular elder scrolls experience.

  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

2/04/13 10:00:16 AM#57
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by deakon
If mods are so essencial to enjoy tes games why are far more tes games sold/played on console where you cant mod at all?

I would love to see figures to back this up and also stats showing how many console players are still playing there copy of oblivion 7 years later and finding fresh content.

Only 14% of skyrim sales were pc

link

Doesn't support his opinion so will likely be ignored lol... 

Facts in a half baked thread usually don't get acknowledged. 

 

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 949

2/04/13 10:04:46 AM#58
Originally posted by deakon

2) player owned housing didnt come into tes games until oblivion

 

You sure about that?

I am pretty damn sure I built a house in Morrowind. I remember it being up a hill from a rinver and you follow the river to the town and buy parts/building materials from there somehow. been a long time since I played Morrowind so I might be wrong but...but...memories tell me Morrowind had housing.

  Varthander

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 433

Forum ranks are useless.

2/04/13 10:06:10 AM#59
O_O

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

2/04/13 10:07:00 AM#60
What?  Well Bethesda has always made decent games, but I have never once thought of them as highly as most seem to.  I think they're good but overrated.  That's beside the point though, since Bethesda is not making TESO.. for better or for worse, we don't know yet.
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