Originally posted by ShakyMo
Bobfish

DAOC HAS FOURTY ONE DUNGEONS

Yes - and 27 of them won't be available to my main... ENTIRELY because they won't let me run them...

... what's your point exactly?

Originally posted by angzt

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Having reviewed the posts on these forums about the various pro's and con's of ESO being the inheritor of TES lore and 'DAOC' gameplay, I can appreciate where the pro's are coming from.

I was focussed until recently on the lack of freedom to see all of the gameworld with one character with this setup, and until yesterday thought it the biggest issue...

... but it isn't...

It hit me like a truck lunchtime yesterday.

With three locked out factional areas - surely the devs have taken on the 'content locust' effect with both arms tied behind their backs!

In PvE terms, they are essentially trying to create THREE MMOs in one - and with 100% voiced NPCs too?

Now I am always prepared to give a game company the benefit of the doubt - but it is very difficult to see how the kind of player like me - who really likes to focus on a single main and who values the replayability of the PvE as much as the fun of the PvP - is going to have enough to do...

... is the game simply going to be that VAST?

If it is vast enough for this not to be a concern - is the PvE element going to be varied enough to be engaging medium to long term?

I must admit I find it difficult to accept that the game will be so big (in terms of the number of varied and interesting PvE 'things to do') that it is in-effect the size and scope of Morriwind, Oblivion AND Skyrim combined...

... that said - my hat would be off to them if they pull such a collossal feat off...

... but I wonder if it can be done...

basically that's what every mmo does.

 

you do not see the "story content" of the elves in WoW, unless you play em, you do not see the storry content of the UD in WoW, unless... yes unless you play em.

 

you wanna tell me wow is like 8 games in one because you wont see the content made for the specific races?

think about it - that's just the way it is. never been different. games seriously suck if you have ONE story for ALLLLLL races ingame. 

The problem comes with the massive proportion of blocked content for each character, not that fact that character-exclusive content exists.

Your arguement does not deal with the issue I raise in this regard.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Where this weird idea that daoc was light on pve content come from?

Daoc had a huge world, at least 3 times the size of any modern mmo e.g. gw2, vanilla rift, swtor, tsw, Aoc. Hell in the case of tsw and swtor probably approaching 10 times the size.

Beyond a certain point, it's not the size of the world , but the amount and quality of what fills it that's important...

Originally posted by ShakyMo
How many dungeons do you get to do in tsw, gw2 & swtor?

I can do at least 1 more raid in TSW then I can in TESO.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.

DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.

You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.

DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.

 

You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.

TESO has nothing now. Game isn't out, can't be played.

You see the problem is, if someone says

"There is not enough content"

the reply is

"You have no idea the game isn't out"

but if you say

"DAOC had 41 dungeons and was huge so TESo will too"

 it is justified to have that opinion!

Hypocrites.

My point has never been about content, always about the restrictions put in place to prevent exploring the world of Tamriel with a character (not 3 characters but with 1 character).

You won't get to see 1/3rd of the game. You will get to see 1/2 the game with each faction, since the central area is shared and is as big as each of the individual realms.

Zenimax are obviously focusing on the end game region primarily being PvP centric. This in itself combats the content locust effect, as PvP has far more staying power than PvE ever will.

Originally posted by evilastro

Zenimax are obviously focusing on the end game region primarily being PvP centric. This in itself combats the content locust effect

It is also combating the TES fan effect too from listening to the feel of fan opinion.

Originally posted by Axxar
I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.

... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...

... I don't think so...

I don't know how replayable TESO will be after the PVE cap. That certainly was never an issue for me in DAoC where the RvR was everything for me and PVE was something I did on rare occasions or in the PVP dungeon.

I'm not much of a raider any longer in any game simply because of the inordinate amount of wasted time spent getting 20 people together in one place to begin with and all the waiting around for the DC'd tank to come back or all the pizza deliveries or 20X bathroom breaks... so quantity of raid content just doesn't really matter to me.

I'll continue to log in if the RvR has enough to it for each campaign to be different enough to be fun--if not, I won't. It's that simple.

Give me content that is well-designed enough to be repeatable many times instead of additional content (which, btw is ususally just the same old shit in new clothes) any time. 

Originally posted by bobfish

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.

DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.

 

You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.

Indeed, DAOC in launch state was an empty world. Most of the dungeons had no monsters at launch. And those that did have monsters had no loot. And the PvP at launch *snicker*. And then the population imbalances....

I really don't get the worship of DAOC as being a 'great pvp game'. Shadowbane, as buggy as it was, was more engaging (and it had server problems too, with one guild taking over a server...).

Basically, PvP and MMO has never mixed well (outside of arenas and team based pvp zones). Once it gets near 'open', it all falls down.

As a PvE player, and crafter, I had a blast in DAOC, playing RvR for fun but not as my main activity. There was definitely enough area to level several toons to 50, in one faction area. I also really enjoyed PvE in the PvP zones, because of the extra danger.

If TESO is anything like DAOC in size, it will be fine.  The key to replayability is having different classes, that really play differently. My first 50 was a minstrel, the 2nd was a Cabalist. Even the Cabalist had three different paths to follow, with different abilities and play strategies. I went Spirit Cabalist.

Trials of Atlantis broke DAOC for me, I didn't really enjoy the whole "raid for 8 hours to get a trinket" kind of play. The best items should be crafter/player made, and not from drops.

If TESO has:

- 3 large areas, each at least as large as Skyrim, and

- multiple interesting and different classes, and

- focus on gathering and crafting, instead of massive raid drops

Then I think it should be fine.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Arenas are THE WORST fit of pvp in a mmo.

They aren't massively multiplayer.
They are instanced and could be in a lobby game rather than a mmo
They encourage stupid 1vs1 balance which can NEVER be accomplished.
They are a lie of "esports in a mmo" which is impossible, sold to suckas by blizzard and arenanet

Mmos can never be balanced and fair. Better to embrace their inherant unfairness than go around pretending they're fucking quake.

 Couldn't agree more...hate those lobby, FPS-like aberrations in MMOs with a passion.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by Axxar
I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.

... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...

... I don't think so...

That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.

I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by Axxar
I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.

... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...

... I don't think so...

That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.

I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.

 

That was fun! I remember being a stealther in DF, and when it switched hands, you could watch the enemies run by you, as you stay invisible. Then try to ambush single or careless players.

Probably the biggest incentive to owning DF was the great PvE farming for cash. Hinges if I remember correctly.