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General Discussion  » RvR won't work out the way you think

18 posts found
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

 
OP  2/03/13 6:20:55 AM#1

I see a lot of people here hyped up about RvR, thinking it'll bring back faction pride and be like DAoC. IMHO, and from past experience, I don't think so.

WAR - No faction pride. People just complained about a lack of rewards for PvPing.

TSW - 3 factions, yet people found another reason to complain on why not they won't PvP.

GW2 - 3 severs pitted against each other. No server pride. People just jumped to the winning server.

 

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

  Ebonheart

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/20/05
Posts: 138

2/03/13 7:43:29 AM#2

It's a little un-fair to label any of those games like "DAoC RvR,"  maybe with WAR as the exception (same devs, same ideas, mostly).

Those games are only similar in that there were three sides and a battleground. GW2 is essentially Server v. Server v. Server where everyone is the same "faction" so there would obviously be no faction pride. TSW PvP does have a warzone but they are miniscule in comparison and the "rewards" are a complete joke. WAR was more similar in that it had set battlegrounds for each level range, and a larger conflict which was influenced by those battlegrounds. It also had pvp ranks which were rather similar to realm skills and ratings for DAoC. The RvR zones were weak in comparison to the larger frontiers in DAoC, as WAR RvR was basically a see-saw. WAR also had a few other problems outside of PvP as well.

 

The 3 main things that made DAoC RvR successful were:

1. Giant seamless RvR zone for max level players with a ton of keeps and towers that could be captured and owned.

- Keep ownership (via Guilds) was also a big deal. Throwing a guild banner up on the walls of a keep meant your guild was in charge and it gave Guilds some sense of purpose. It was great for the whole "pride" aspect and helped with natural organization. Another example of where something like this still works is EVE online ownership and PvP.

- None of the above mentioned games have this on a comparable scale.

 

2. RvR dependent rewards that were actually worth fighting for. Access to Darkness Falls would be one example.

- If you make significant parts of the game dependent upon the realm war, people will want to fight for it. Darkness Falls was a BIG deal, and if you couldn't visit DF you couldn't get the great gear and experience, which wasn't available elsewhere. For this reason alone, ownership would be in a constant state of flux as everyone wanted access. Leaving a group to rush to DF wasn't uncommon, unless you took the group with you.

 

3. Locked factions with distinct faction culture and classes (THAT WORKED AS A TEAM), which in turn created unique faction playstyles.

- This is where GW2 fails entirely, as everyone is basically the same faction and no one is dependent on one another outside of needing them for a larger zerg to counter other zergs. TSW does a decent job of this, but each faction has the same class wheel. WAR did a good job of this, but failed in the other aspects.

- The primary component here is distinct class roles and teamwork. Healers healed/rez'd, Buffers buffed, Scouts scouted, Infiltrators infiltrated, Tanks tanked, and Nukers nuked. Newer games try to get away from this, but it gets rid of any teamwork beyond "go that way and kill things" and "go find more people so we can kill more things."

- In terms of unique faction playstyles... When playing DAoC, if you were fighting against Hibernia you knew to be on the lookout for shrooms. When fighting against Albion you knew to be on the lookout for scouts n' wizzies. When fighting against Midgard you knew to cover your backside from Skald rape-trains and always try to focus the Bonedancer who was lifetapping first. Just a couple of examples.

 

There are other more minor reasons of course, but I don't feel like making the wall of text any bigger so this broad overview will have to suffice as an explanation.

  Shadanwolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1896

2/03/13 11:55:04 AM#3
Originally posted by nate1980

I see a lot of people here hyped up about RvR, thinking it'll bring back faction pride and be like DAoC. IMHO, and from past experience, I don't think so.

WAR - No faction pride. People just complained about a lack of rewards for PvPing.

TSW - 3 factions, yet people found another reason to complain on why not they won't PvP.

GW2 - 3 severs pitted against each other. No server pride. People just jumped to the winning server.

 

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

Nope...you cannot play another faction in the same rvr instance.That had been openly declared.Cross realming in the came instance cannot happen.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19398

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/03/13 12:36:54 PM#4
One more thing DAOC had going for it, interesting and powerful skills and abilities you could work for by spending the realm points you earned from PVPing.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Thedrizzle

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 331

BWC

2/03/13 12:49:32 PM#5
Originally posted by nate1980

I see a lot of people here hyped up about RvR, thinking it'll bring back faction pride and be like DAoC. IMHO, and from past experience, I don't think so.

WAR - No faction pride. People just complained about a lack of rewards for PvPing.

TSW - 3 factions, yet people found another reason to complain on why not they won't PvP.

GW2 - 3 severs pitted against each other. No server pride. People just jumped to the winning server.

 

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

Its no mystery that the gaming community has changed and I think a lot of the realm pride in DAOC came from the fact that the whole system was new.  Another thing that got guilds and alliances working together was the bonus that holding a relic gave the realm and team work taking and holding keeps beause it kept darkness falls open.

If you add elements like that to any game it will cause team work and "realm pride".

  rwyan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 436

2/03/13 12:56:36 PM#6

The MMO genre is played out to a degree.  All sense of immersion, mystery and excitement is usually dropped because these games have become so standardized and conventionalized.

 

The fact that most of these games rely on the same mechanics, concepts, etc... is a problem in and of itself.  With AC, EQ, UO and a number of earlier MMOs.... players spent a lot of time being immersed in the game.  Each game had its own unique sense of gameplay.  While factional pvp systems weren't new, the RvRvR presentation was very much so.  However, as with most other games and features, once players "master" the system and its underlying mechanics, the feature gets "gamed".

 

The only way ESO RvR will really make an impression is if weaves in some nuances we as gamers aren't necessarily familiar with.  We are familir with picking a faction, fighting against other factions, taking keeps/locations for various rewards.  Bethesda will need to take it leaps and steps further.  In sense, it really needs to "encourage" players to act on emotion as opposed to "just another token incentivized system".  If they can play off the "emotinal context", then ESO will have it in the bag for sure.  

 

Remember, what made DAoC RvR so great (at least the first 1-2yrs) was the pride, vengence, subterfuge, and conspiracy that played out.  A lot of that was due to our unfamiliarity with the underlying systems.  Eventually, RvR degraded into a game of efficiency, optimizing rewards for your character.

  LadyEuphei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 226

2/03/13 1:00:34 PM#7
Originally posted by nate1980

I see a lot of people here hyped up about RvR, thinking it'll bring back faction pride and be like DAoC. IMHO, and from past experience, I don't think so.

WAR - No faction pride. People just complained about a lack of rewards for PvPing.

Only 2 factions

TSW - 3 factions, yet people found another reason to complain on why not they won't PvP.

What did they complain about?

GW2 - 3 severs pitted against each other. No server pride. People just jumped to the winning server.

No significance to actually playing WvW

 

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

DAOC had a purpose to realm wars and they had 3 factions. GW2 has 3 "factions" in WvWvW but there is no significance to doing it. Your just there to take a keep that will then be taken by the next guy and so on and so forth, you have nothing to show for it at the end of the day except a small server buff, unlike DAOC skills and farming grounds gained.

I can not recall any TSW complaining about PvP, but I really did not care much for that game so I have no real right to comment on it.

Warhammer had only 2 factions and it had a kinda cool idea, but at the end of the day it was just keep trading because there was a lack of an ability to hold keeps well and there was more benefits for keep swapping then holding. Kinda like GW2.

Not that I like ESO, but it sounds like it is getting closer to the DAOC mark than anyone else has as of yet.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

2/03/13 1:09:03 PM#8
Originally posted by LadyEuphei
Originally posted by nate1980

I see a lot of people here hyped up about RvR, thinking it'll bring back faction pride and be like DAoC. IMHO, and from past experience, I don't think so.

WAR - No faction pride. People just complained about a lack of rewards for PvPing.

Only 2 factions

TSW - 3 factions, yet people found another reason to complain on why not they won't PvP.

What did they complain about?

GW2 - 3 severs pitted against each other. No server pride. People just jumped to the winning server.

No significance to actually playing WvW

 

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

DAOC had a purpose to realm wars and they had 3 factions. GW2 has 3 "factions" in WvWvW but there is no significance to doing it. Your just there to take a keep that will then be taken by the next guy and so on and so forth, you have nothing to show for it at the end of the day except a small server buff, unlike DAOC skills and farming grounds gained.

I can not recall any TSW complaining about PvP, but I really did not care much for that game so I have no real right to comment on it.

Warhammer had only 2 factions and it had a kinda cool idea, but at the end of the day it was just keep trading because there was a lack of an ability to hold keeps well and there was more benefits for keep swapping then holding. Kinda like GW2.

Not that I like ESO, but it sounds like it is getting closer to the DAOC mark than anyone else has as of yet.

I agree with this and would also add that in GW2 while there were 3 "sides" those sides were completely the same with no differences in looks,lore,classes or animations  to foster any factional pride at all.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/03/13 1:26:53 PM#9
The problem with tsw, all chums together in pve, supposed to fight in pvp. So what happened people just traded objectives in fusang to power level. Fusang was full of pveers power gaming it to get a starter dungeon set.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/03/13 1:30:15 PM#10
I disagree that war lacked rivalry. Well on the UK servers anyway, there was plenty of real pvp. Although I remember on norn there was this ex wow order zerg guild that thought they were the bosses, and kept eying to get everyone to zerg empty keeps. Turned out his brother ran the "top" destruction guild. Of course my ex daoc guild and our alliance with a couple of scandanavian guild took no bloody notice, in the end most of the guilds followed our alliance around instead, for actual pvp.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/03/13 1:32:10 PM#11
Another thing TESO has over those 3 games.

NO instanced wow style minigames crap to go and HIDE in.
  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/03/13 1:33:04 PM#12
Originally posted by nate1980

Granted, it sounds like ESO will be doing things a bit different, but is it enough? DAoC did not allow cross realming on the same server. You picked 1 realm and stuck with it and that people did do. In ESO, since there will be only 1 server, can't people just reroll to another faction if clearly 1 is the stronger? In GW2, the two weakest servers never banded together to overcome the stronger server the way the 2 under dogged realms in DAoC did. I just have my doubts that the community of today will be like the community a decade ago when DAoC was in its prime. I think PvPers will find a reason to complain about the RvR and find a reason why they shouldn't do it. I don't think people will have faction pride, instead I think people will be rolling all 3 factions. 

TESO will have the same thing as daoc, just insert the word campaign where you have realm, you can roll an alt on a different faction but they wont be allowed to play in the same pvp campaign as your main.

 

So yes if your losing to say the EH faction on your campaign you could re-roll to EH but theres no garuntee that you wont end up in the exact same position but with AD dominating

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

2/03/13 1:37:44 PM#13
Originally posted by Kyleran
One more thing DAOC had going for it, interesting and powerful skills and abilities you could work for by spending the realm points you earned from PVPing.

 

 

TESO will have this too.

 

Yes we have a PVP progression system that we haven't really talked about yet," says Firor. "And in beta we'll go further into this, but you get Alliance Points the more you PVP, you get more abilities, and in that sense it's similar to Camelot where we had Realm Points

From this interview

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2013/jan/29/elder-scrolls-online-characters

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/03/13 1:41:51 PM#14
Hmm disagree with you there deacon. There is much potential for cross realming shenanigans and pussies transferring to the zerg with this megaserver thing.

You can swap campaigns for an alliance rank penalty, which is hardly the sane thing as having to reroll.
You can guest in a friends campaign.

I also don't like the mega server, as it paints them into a corner with alternate rulesets like ffa and coop servers in daoc. Which would shut up the "why can't I go everywhere and gank anyone" and the "my buddy likes orcs, I like elfs why can't we go pve together" whiners.
  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/03/13 1:49:03 PM#15
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Hmm disagree with you there deacon. There is much potential for cross realming shenanigans and pussies transferring to the zerg with this megaserver thing.

You can swap campaigns for an alliance rank penalty, which is hardly the sane thing as having to reroll.
You can guest in a friends campaign.

I also don't like the mega server, as it paints them into a corner with alternate rulesets like ffa and coop servers in daoc. Which would shut up the "why can't I go everywhere and gank anyone" and the "my buddy likes orcs, I like elfs why can't we go pve together" whiners.

Guesting will be limited (no idea how yet tho) and charging progression to swap campaigns is no different than a rmt to change server, infact most the players i know would part with money before they would progression, it is however dependant on how steep the penalty and if theres a cd on transfering

  ragz45

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 482

2/03/13 2:02:00 PM#16

Honestly the reason GW2 WvW doesn't work, is due to the scoreboard.  People are too obsessed with the scoreboard to actually get the two underdog realms together and beat ont he bigger of the 3.  They are worried that if they do that, they may end up 3rd instead of 2nd on the scoreboard.  It is much easier for the bigger of the two realms to just pick on the bones of the 3rd realm the entire match.

Get rid of the scoreboard in gw2 and things would gradually change to be more like DAOC.  I'm hoping that TES has no form of scoreboard personally.

  SQTO

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 165

2/03/13 2:39:31 PM#17

they went wrong with WAR and TSW because they made attacking more rewarding then defending, so instead of pvp everyone just  avoided each other for faster awards.

for gw2 they ruined WvW with server transfers ( not sure if they fixed this yet) so everyone would transfer to the winning world.

Many people will avoid pvp and go were the most rewards are so ESO need to really focus on the reward balances for attacking/defending and not make it easy to leave to go to a winning side.

  cronius77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1310

2/03/13 2:46:13 PM#18
people complained OP in WAR there was no reward? did you play warhammer man? that was never the issue and there was plenty of smack talking and realm pride in warhammer online at release. TSW and GW2 cloned the three realm pvp nothing else so those two games can not even compare to old DAOC. WAR was the closest to DAOC there was with actual two seperate factions with different lore at war with each other. DAOC fighting was over a persistant world with no other end game than pvp long term. Your gear came from pve and crafting , and if you hated pvp you didnt play DAOC end game unless you were on 1 pve server. You are right no cross realming and server transfers created realm pride , but also it was a end game goal of taking keeps to unlock darkness falls and get relics. None of these games since WAR have even tried at all to make end game pvp with real realm objectives. Thats why GW2 fails and TSW . If you make an actual campaign like DAOC had for end game and keep it so you cannot switch sides all the time , you will get a decent pvp end game with realm pride.