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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Western devs bragging about what koreans already done

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122 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17111

2/02/13 5:22:14 PM#61
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by DamonVile

One of the great things about tera is how much effort people put into telling everyone it's bad. I don't know if it's because it's Korean and they hate it for being Asian or because it's got a lot of sexy costumes and it makes their bible hurt.

Either way..it's funny.

 Its also funny how some of the same people say SWTOR went F2P, proof the game is bad are the same people saying TERA going F2P has nothing to do with it being good or not, its just to allow more people to play a good game...

Sorry, good games dont go from Subscription to F2P in such a short time unless they are PoS's...but then, most people already knew that about TERA by its poor reception in Asia a year before hitting the west. BTW, loved the Bible reference...very fitting your mentality. Guess someone should now say that Tera was made for pedo's because of the Elin race...

That's not necessarily true.

you are trying to use the argument that "the more people who play a game then better the game." You completely ignore that a particular game just might not be of interest to a large amount of people or might not have enough to hold a player after level cap is reached.

SWToR's issue was more that it didn't have enough content after you hit cap. It actually was a very good game provided you could sign into the "bioware story" concept. Tera's issue is more that it was a proof of concept game. It's almost as if they created the combat system and said "oh, now we need a game to go around it."

Had Tera been more sandboxy it would have been a larger hit for people who liked its combat. Currently the end game is runing instnaces over and over and enchanting your gear. Why would anyone continue to subscribe after doign this over and over and over. It's a tough sell. But the game up to cap was pretty fun for a traditional kil x quest grinder game.

LOTRO was doing well enough but suffered from the same "ok, I'm now at top level for a themepark game, now what" issue.

Removing any up front costs from playign these games allows more people to play them and unfortunately allows for a smaller amount of people to spend a greater amount of money. Which of course is what Turbine discovered with DDO and LOTRO.

These games are good but are themepark games and therefore it's hard to sell player on continuing a subscription for little game play until an exapansion can be made.

  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2421

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

2/02/13 5:30:36 PM#62

I think Jtcgs already provided a sufficient answer to the OP.  Personally, I don't recall western mmorpg devs using the word 'innovative' lately when describing their combat system.  Maybe guild wars 2 is the exception. 

Also, Tera's combat system isn't anything to brag about.  Sure, its different - but that doesn't make it better in the slightest.  Its been awhile since I played the game but if its true that you are rooted in place when you attack (typical of most asian mmos), well that just shows inferior mechanics. 

Finally, even Koreans prefer western games over their own.  League of Legends it the most popular game in Korean and has been for almost 10 months.  Who made it?  Riot - from California.  And in second place?  Starcraft 2 made from Blizzard, also based in California.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

2/02/13 5:37:51 PM#63
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Quirhid

I think rooting was brought up because, in many games, characters are rooted in place for the duration of using an ability. In contrast, GW2 allows movement while using abilities.

And using the pace a measurement of how actiony the combat is, is not very good.

 Actually using the pace as a measuerment of action is the ONLY way to do it.

Or do you think "action" games are based on doing nothing? The very word means the stating of action, something done or performed.

So if one game doesnt allow you to move, limits its dodge to one way and only allows you to perform one acton per second, it wont be thought of as ACTION combat if compared to a game that allows you to move, allows you to dodge in all directions and also alows you to perform one action per second.

Tera roots you, because if it didnt, its massive limitations to combat would really shine through. it needs to keep you in place to force a straight back dodge roll because the creatures attacks are piss poor and demand it. In GW2, you are free to move yet will still be required to dodge often because the mobs have better a wider range of attacks.

Its the same with Vindictus, its known for good action combat because of freeform movement and dodging. Tera, Tera is known for a crap story and going F2P in a short amount of time because of its limitations and placing all bets on average "ACTION COMBAT WITH DODGE ZOMG!". Seriously, the only MMO I ever heard of that based its advertisements on having dodge...at least AoC advertised BRUTAL bloody combat...but dodge? lol.

No, what you yourself also describe is the actions which you can take in combat. So you yoursellf don't use pace as the only measure of action combat. But this is where it gets blurry: DDO had active blocking, no rooting for the duration of casting abilities (my memory is vague, but atleast not for melee actions). GW1 had interruptions, dodging projectiles, body blocking, directional combat... Would those two also qualify as having action combat?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17111

2/02/13 5:48:54 PM#64
Originally posted by TheHavok

 

Also, Tera's combat system isn't anything to brag about.  Sure, its different - but that doesn't make it better in the slightest.  Its been awhile since I played the game but if its true that you are rooted in place when you attack (typical of most asian mmos), well that just shows inferior mechanics. 

 

well, no it doesn't.

It shows that you prefer a different way of manifesting "action" combat.

Just as my preference is for players to have tomake a decision on whether they use their large skills yet pause to allow for a sword wind up or a spell case or whether they "run" to a point that is more advnatageous.

I personally always despised the idea of continually  running and then launching off skills and spells. Then again I also thought it cheap. And of course, that just falls under preference.

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1260

2/02/13 6:20:06 PM#65

The fact of the matter is this:

When I played asian MMOs, I felt like I was playing World of Pedophiles. The girls always look like they are 10 and the males look like girls.

If they would just man-up / age-up the characters, many asian MMOs would do very well in the west.

  CalmOceans

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1815

2/02/13 6:25:26 PM#66
Originally posted by mmoDAD

The fact of the matter is this:

When I played asian MMOs, I felt like I was playing World of Pedophiles. The girls always look like they are 10 and the males look like girls.

If they would just man-up / age-up the characters, many asian MMOs would do very well in the west.

Yep, I feel pretty weird playing most Asian MMO. I just want my character to look like she or he plays the part, I do not want to play a character that doesn't look like the part.

Vindictus is a good example of this, half the threads are about how to dress up the character, and 90% of the people discussing how to dress up their character are males. It just freaks me out, even I as a gamer have limits.

If you want to dress up your character in clothing sets, go play a barbie MMO please.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/02/13 7:25:43 PM#67
Originally posted by Sovrath

That's not necessarily true.

you are trying to use the argument that "the more people who play a game then better the game." You completely ignore that a particular game just might not be of interest to a large amount of people or might not have enough to hold a player after level cap is reached.

 true is true, opinion is opinion. The truth is not beholden to a few opinions, truth in some cases(like this) however CAN be beholden to the majority of opinions.

Truth, most people that played the game quit due to it not being good, not just Western gamers, but also Asian.

Opinion, you think the game is good no matter how many people dont like it.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2693

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

2/02/13 10:47:33 PM#68
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Sovrath

That's not necessarily true.

you are trying to use the argument that "the more people who play a game then better the game." You completely ignore that a particular game just might not be of interest to a large amount of people or might not have enough to hold a player after level cap is reached.

 true is true, opinion is opinion. The truth is not beholden to a few opinions, truth in some cases(like this) however CAN be beholden to the majority of opinions.

Truth, most people that played the game quit due to it not being good, not just Western gamers, but also Asian.

Opinion, you think the game is good no matter how many people dont like it.

Both of your examples contain a subjective opinion:

  • the reason most people quit
  • assuming many people don't like it (at least out of those that played)

Therefor both statements are nothing more than half truths. The parts I underlined are the halfs that actually are true.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

 
OP  2/02/13 10:55:00 PM#69
Originally posted by NBlitz
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Quirhid

I think rooting was brought up because, in many games, characters are rooted in place for the duration of using an ability. In contrast, GW2 allows movement while using abilities.

And using the pace a measurement of how actiony the combat is, is not very good.

()

So if one game doesnt allow you to move, limits its dodge to one way and only allows you to perform one acton per second, it wont be thought of as ACTION combat if compared to a game that allows you to move, allows you to dodge in all directions and also alows you to perform one action per second.

()

Except that you can also dodge in e-v-e-r-y direction in TERA and even better than whatever game you're mentioning in your posts. How? Use the free-aim, Luke.

Shocking, I know. How many claim to have reached a certain level in TERA but forget to mention such things or how the rooting is for certain skills only while the rest are either chargeable while running, or glyphable to allow for movement during combat etc. etc.

I'm tired of this subject, I seem to have a headache and I'm going to enjoy my tiramisu and tea now.

I've discussed the subjects ad nauseum. Just dive into my post history, cba right now to repost the same because this will just end up in a circular wank topic even more than it already is.

dont bother explaining to him what real time action is.. someone even mention ultima and eq as an action game... they are freakin clueless or never played a console game in their life, they think dice rolls are action games

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

 
OP  2/02/13 10:56:31 PM#70
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Pivotelite

  I need to make some videos to shut up all these damn people who talk about TERAs combat not being action combat, slow, or complain about rooting.

 

Hello, rooting is part of what makes action combat action, every action has a reaction, you dont charge up a big swing when you can clearly see the enemy is about to swing which would leave you vulnerable. Its common sense and requires you to actually use your brain.

 

Secondly, TERA has progression unlike all these others themepark games lately, your character at level 1, 10, 30 and 60 feels totally different unlike a certain extremely popular game that released recently.

 

The problem with that is TERA is too limiting early on and with that style of combat it makes you feel slow and clunky, but then once youre 60 with all your glyphs, skills and attack speed and movement speed buffs... you realize its very fast paced, especially when one mistake = dead.

 You go on and make your video, wont change a thing because I played the game and already know. The lack of tab targeting does not make combat, action combat and the idea that having a rooted character when attacking = action combat isnt even worth laughing at.

Rooting means your character CANNOT move, dodge as a skill LIMITS dodge, the time between attacks LIMITS attacks...and as for TERAs progression, having a fireball 1 at lvl 1, fireball 2 at lvl 7, fireball 3 at lvl 12 or whatever it was all adds up to ONE FREAKING SKILL in the end. The grand total of skills per character in Tera is very low and has no real variety...and that game your refuse to mention thats really popular has classes that are very diverse with a large amount of skills, doesnt root characters, has a dodge that can be done in ANY direction and the attack rate is even faster. and no, one mistake = dead does not = action combat either.

go play a console game if you dont know what the hell real time action games are..  if its auto anything it isn't real time get it? if you can't block then its turn base

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

 
OP  2/02/13 10:57:57 PM#71
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by dwarflordking

Every time a new western mmo comes out they would brag that its innovative and new, 

 

but makes no mention that koreans have been doing it for years.. a full blown console level real time action game like tera has been around forever and nothing in the west has come close in terms of gameplay and style of action..

 

yet games like guildwars and ESO start bragging about its dated combat..  I remember SWTOR bragging the crap out of its amazing innovative combat system.. when you actually see the game its the same point and click crap...

 

Why dont they look at the competition and see that they are inferior.. look at a kiddy mmo like dragon nest and watch a pvp battle and tell me what in the west matches that? its real time action with every action conducted by the crosshair aiming.. no auto aim crap....

 

Do western devs need a reality check? they are way behind in innovation/ style/ gamplay.. sure theres shitty korean games but there are amazing ones and they outnumber western games by alot

tera is around for ever? thought i saw em go beta last year....

 

my sense of time seems to fail me :(

No, its literally one of those blink and you miss it kind of things, one second its in beta, the next its crashing and burning.. just one of those things.

the hell you talkin about, its a 4 year old game in korea, and the west hasn't done anything to close the gap since

  FallguyArmy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 80

2/02/13 11:00:54 PM#72
Originally posted by jtcgs

1. Tera's combat sucks, its a watered down version of Vindictus's REAL action combat which was FASTER...who calls being rooted while casting magic and a hotkeyed dodge skill, ACTION? Just because it isnt tab targetting? lol. Also, that game did not introduce anything NEW to the market.

2. Guild Wars 2 has far more "action" in its combat by freeing casters to move and making dodge a non-skilled ability...and they are doing it while giving far more skills to use where as Tera has vastly limited character classes along with combat that is paced the same as other MMOs.

3. Yes, Western game makers are getting a dose in reality now...that is why almost all of them are admitting F2P and B2P are the future, because they finally looked at why most Korean companies are making more money then they are, and have a larger playerbase.

4. Crosshair aiming does not = action. Fast paced = action.

 

Actually...

 

1. TERA's combat system may not be the best, but it sure is better than most of the current MMORPG combat systems that usually consist of tab-target or point-and-click. Furthemore, don't forget that Vindictus is technically a Korean MMO (originally titled Mabinogi Heroes), and the general point that the OP tried to make is that the Koreans have been implementing ideas long way before Western developers only to claim it as "new" or "innovative". That being said, no Western developer has adopted an action-oriented combat system for any triple-A MMORPG title as of yet. 

 

2. The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that all you have to do is kite and walk back as you kill mobs from far away. Rinse and repeat. Because TERA's skills are locked based on classes, there's more variation.

 

3. People are willing to pay so long as there's quality. Even if it's not "quality" in the traditional sense, you can see people still have money to burn with just the amount of cosmetic items bought from cash shops. People even have money to support goldsellers as sad as that may sound, so that should tell you something. The truth of the matter is that nowadays MMORPGs lack in quality and innovation, so no one really wants to be tied monthly anymore. With the exception of the few who are gullible enough to buy into EA and Bioware's F2P schemes for Star Wars The Old Republic (i.e. these players end up subscribing instead of maintaining F2P status).

 

4. Crosshair = action. Crosshair (if implemented correctly) ultimately means non-target, so by that very nature you have to be more visceral in determining and executing your attacks. Fast paced ALSO = action, but it just sets the tempo and not necessarily defines action.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/02/13 11:10:45 PM#73

"the hell you talkin about, its a 4 year old game in korea"

TERA released in Korea on January 25th, 2011, approximately 3 months before the NA/EU release.



"if its auto anything it isn't real time get it? if you can't block then its turn base"

Let me help you out with that one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turns,_rounds_and_time-keeping_systems_in_games#Turn-based

http://jonshaferondesign.com/2013/01/03/turn-based-vs-real-time/

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/129959/designing_ai_algorithms_for_.php
 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

 
OP  2/02/13 11:13:41 PM#74
Originally posted by FallguyArmy
Originally posted by jtcgs

1. Tera's combat sucks, its a watered down version of Vindictus's REAL action combat which was FASTER...who calls being rooted while casting magic and a hotkeyed dodge skill, ACTION? Just because it isnt tab targetting? lol. Also, that game did not introduce anything NEW to the market.

2. Guild Wars 2 has far more "action" in its combat by freeing casters to move and making dodge a non-skilled ability...and they are doing it while giving far more skills to use where as Tera has vastly limited character classes along with combat that is paced the same as other MMOs.

3. Yes, Western game makers are getting a dose in reality now...that is why almost all of them are admitting F2P and B2P are the future, because they finally looked at why most Korean companies are making more money then they are, and have a larger playerbase.

4. Crosshair aiming does not = action. Fast paced = action.

 

Actually...

 

1. TERA's combat system may not be the best, but it sure is better than most of the current MMORPG combat systems that usually consist of tab-target or point-and-click. Furthemore, don't forget that Vindictus is technically a Korean MMO (originally titled Mabinogi Heroes), and the general point that the OP tried to make is that the Koreans have been implementing ideas long way before Western developers only to claim it as "new" or "innovative". That being said, no Western developer has adopted an action-oriented combat system for any triple-A MMORPG title as of yet. 

 

2. The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that all you have to do is kite and walk back as you kill mobs from far away. Rinse and repeat. Because TERA's skills are locked based on classes, there's more variation.

 

3. People are willing to pay so long as there's quality. Even if it's not "quality" in the traditional sense, you can see people still have money to burn with just the amount of cosmetic items bought from cash shops. People even have money to support goldsellers as sad as that may sound, so that should tell you something. The truth of the matter is that nowadays MMORPGs lack in quality and innovation, so no one really wants to be tied monthly anymore. With the exception of the few who are gullible enough to buy into EA and Bioware's F2P schemes for Star Wars The Old Republic (i.e. these players end up subscribing instead of maintaining F2P status).

 

4. Crosshair = action. Crosshair (if implemented correctly) ultimately means non-target, so by that very nature you have to be more visceral in determining and executing your attacks. Fast paced ALSO = action, but it just sets the tempo and not necessarily defines action.

This!

 

i dont care what you guys think of tera or korean games in general the point is action games being implemented in the west have stagnated to the same combat weve seen since EQ.. point and click for years

And i dont care how good or bad the koreans games are doing it, but the fact is they are doing it and trying it , the west isn't at all.. despite what they are claiming in their dev vids

And of course it isn't going to be as good as 20 player max fps games..duh?

and the trend doesn't seem to be changing at all.. the biggest game ESO i found out is another auto aim... skyrim you can aim your arrow (anyone should find this fun!) yet it turns out to be another auto aim... i could be wrong but i remember hearing there is tab targeting.... which really sucks

There is a market for people who love mmo and zelda style action or else devs woudln't even make it, i dont care if its niche or growing market, whether you like it or not, but its there, and for people like me who hear these new games coming out promising action combat and its the same shit, its really disapointing and even fraudulant from the west... . 

 

 

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

 
OP  2/02/13 11:15:11 PM#75
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"the hell you talkin about, its a 4 year old game in korea"

TERA released in Korea on January 25th, 2011, approximately 3 months before the NA/EU release.



"if its auto anything it isn't real time get it? if you can't block then its turn base"

Let me help you out with that one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turns,_rounds_and_time-keeping_systems_in_games#Turn-based

http://jonshaferondesign.com/2013/01/03/turn-based-vs-real-time/

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/129959/designing_ai_algorithms_for_.php
 

real time strategy is completely different from real -time action , like zelda, gow , dmc.. etc... thats where im getting at 

  User Deleted
2/02/13 11:22:56 PM#76

GW2 combat is much more fluid than TERA's.  In Tera, I hate being rooted while using certain moves and never being able to see what's behind me during a fight.  Tera uses "Camera Aiming" which gives me a headache after a while.

I don't think anybody claimed that SWTOR's combat was innovative at all.  TERA also has the trinity, which GW2 does not.  GW2 didn't copy Korea, but I think Korea will be copying GW2.

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1842

2/02/13 11:26:47 PM#77
Originally posted by mmoDAD

The fact of the matter is this:

When I played asian MMOs, I felt like I was playing World of Pedophiles. The girls always look like they are 10 and the males look like girls.

If they would just man-up / age-up the characters, many asian MMOs would do very well in the west.

 

That will never happen.   Eastern culture prefers males with more feminine features, and their height is short by nature.   

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/02/13 11:36:19 PM#78
Originally posted by dwarflordking
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"the hell you talkin about, its a 4 year old game in korea"

TERA released in Korea on January 25th, 2011, approximately 3 months before the NA/EU release.



"if its auto anything it isn't real time get it? if you can't block then its turn base"

Let me help you out with that one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turns,_rounds_and_time-keeping_systems_in_games#Turn-based

http://jonshaferondesign.com/2013/01/03/turn-based-vs-real-time/

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/129959/designing_ai_algorithms_for_.php
 

real time strategy is completely different from real -time action , like zelda, gow , dmc.. etc... thats where im getting at 

And what I'm getting at is that you really don't know what turn based or real time mean. I was trying to help you out there, but if you'd rather stay the course then that's just that much more amusement for the rest of us. Fight the good fight, son! O7

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  moosecatlol

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1172

2/02/13 11:51:29 PM#79

For TERA to even consider it self an aciton combat oriented mmo is laughable at best. From what I've noticed, it seems to be the entry into aciton combat for all the previous "WoW was my first mmo" group.

 

Anyways, here is an example of WESTERN(Warframe) devs being ahead of Eastern devs(Hounds online)

  User Deleted
2/02/13 11:57:40 PM#80
Originally posted by dwarflordking
Originally posted by dumpcat
Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by dwarflordking

Every time a new western mmo comes out they would brag that its innovative and new, 

 

but makes no mention that koreans have been doing it for years.. a full blown console level real time action game like tera has been around forever and nothing in the west has come close in terms of gameplay and style of action..

 

yet games like guildwars and ESO start bragging about its dated combat..  I remember SWTOR bragging the crap out of its amazing innovative combat system.. when you actually see the game its the same point and click crap...

 

Why dont they look at the competition and see that they are inferior.. look at a kiddy mmo like dragon nest and watch a pvp battle and tell me what in the west matches that? its real time action with every action conducted by the crosshair aiming.. no auto aim crap....

 

Do western devs need a reality check? they are way behind in innovation/ style/ gamplay.. sure theres shitty korean games but there are amazing ones and they outnumber western games by alot

the player - character relationship is a concept you seem to have no knowledge of.

 

Why must the player aim when the character is the one on the battlefield ?

 

You just summed up what is wrong with all modern MMORPGs. The invasion of the "I'm a pro gamer with skillz!" set that have slowly turned virtual worlds into virtual arenas, completely removing the RPG aspect. Here's hoping the resurgence of the sandbox will herald the return of character-driven play.

This.

Tera is a terrible MMO with little RPG value and depth. The combat is fun for a little while but it it is not an attention keeper.

doesn't matter if a game sucks or not, the topic is western devs bragging about whats already been done, and done better... anyone who loves auto aim is apitomey of a lazy gamer who loves dice rolls and nothing more.

fps are exitcing because its action.. imagine how shitty teh game would be if call of duty was auto aim? the only reason we have auto anything is because of the limites of the internet.. 

 

Then go play a real FPS? Or a MMOFPS, there are plenty of them out there now.

RPGs have always been about dice rolls, lore and character building. If you don't like that then you are in the wrong genre.

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