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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Simplifying complicated topics

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30 posts found
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6001

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  2/02/13 5:03:41 AM#21
Originally posted by greenreen

Came back to read other posts. I can't understand why people don't claim to see things black and white.

My concern is that if you can't see purely good or bad that you are susceptible to fence straddling which could lead to being swayed according to personal gain since your world is all grey.

Example - Stealing is bad, but if I steal for me, it's not bad if I can't get caught and no one gets hurt. The person you stole from gets hurt. Oh no, I stole from a business, they don't need the money. They have employees that need the money. But they can write it off on taxes as a loss and still pay their employees with other funds. Now, you just gave yourself the justification to steal because you don't see stealing as wrong no matter the situation. If you don't have black and white, you have an eraser and a pencil at the same time in your head, you erase what is low risk and draw lines towards what is attainable. Let someone in management embezzle funds then I'll bet you see black and white when you don't get paid and the company shuts down.

Then you get the people complaining about when we give people the death penalty. Oh boohoo, you are killing people and giving them a date to die. Hey, that was usually more than their victims got, why all the boohoo after they did something worse is shocking to me. Tell me people don't have good and bad thoughts when it comes to actions like pedophiles. Anyone ever say what they did is ok or that it's a grey area.

The pitch forks are black and white all the time, why expect gaming views to not be. It's still humans behind the keyboard or in your face during conversations. Every one of you see some black and white though you aren't admitting it.

Fence straddling isn't an enlightened view, it's being mutable and wavering per moment. Reminds me of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_s-Qk07KxA Pick a side :P

Stealing, in general, is bad. However, stealing food to feed you family is not (that is if you have exhausted all other options). To be able to steal with no chance of getting caught, is the fault of the system. See piracy for example: Its been reduced to stealing in the media, when it is very different from that. Many people wouldn't buy the product they've obtained illegaly.

So the astronomical compensations for the "victims" (the companies) are ridiculous. And remember, Pirate bay had over 14 million users at one time. You can't find prisons large enough to put all of those people away or demand millions of dollars from all of them whether they just shared one song or ten thousand songs.

Clearly there's a difference what is legal and illegal and what is right and wrong. Take for example to provoke someone to commit suicide. Not assist, only encourage. Out of malice. You'd have hard time convicting that person atleast in my country. It is clearly wrong, but for what crimes should we convict him/her?

Death penalty is wrong, because the system which exacts this punishment is not infallible. If you kill just one innocent, you are a murderer yourself. But it saves money, no? No... its not justice, its revenge.

Clearly the executions are inhumane: the amount of anesthetic in the syringe barely puts you to sleep: higher dozes are used in surgery. The electric chair is not a sure way to die: people have been known to fry for several minutes before dying. Even surviving the first few jolts. If the fall in hanging doesn't break your neck, you'll slowly strangle to death. Hell, even in guillotine the head survives a 14 seconds or so after being dismembered. Who knows if they feel pain? Aside from the one in the electric chair, they can't scream. Do you think this is right?

Then there's euthanasia. Euthanasia is illegal in many countries! I think it should be legal. If the patient is capable of making an informed decision to end his/her suffering, I'm all for it.

What is legal may be still wrong and what is illegal may be right. We do not live in a simple black and white world. Things may be easier to talk about as black and white issues, but you should never thinkits the true nature of things. You should always remember the shades of gray in your decisionmaking. Those details are important.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1951

2/02/13 2:13:59 PM#22

You just proved all of what I typed as true. Thanks for the honesty. You do take sides and grey turns to personal gain. See, that wasn't hard to admit. No lightning came down and struck you. I knew all I needed was something to be evoke a feeling in you. That feeling is the same thing some experience some have talks about games. Again, the passion is working.

Only thing you didn't admit was that people play games for reasons maybe you really think that is grey too and none of the reasons you listed are ever a factor in their mind saying all good or all bad. If only you had included graphics in your original post, then you know that wouldn't hold true, another black and white for many. There are legions that won't touch 2d games because they consider the developers amateurs. It has been the number one thing I could quote time and time again for people shrugging off games with decent gameplay inside complaining about how it doesn't look modern. This game looks old... next. 

If you don't believe in black and white then you don't believe in preference.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

Surely you have sometimes thought or typed. I "prefer" x over y, that again is black and white.

I know I'm simplifying it and you probably don't like that but it's truth. Things are only grey until you take a side, then they stop being grey. If you never take a side on anything THEN you can claim complete grey thoughts but that doesn't happen in humans. We do take sides and we do stand on them. I don't care if it's true from a philosophical standpoint of what we should or shouldn't be in theory, I only seek to speak it as truth because it is what we do. We are all animals. Have you heard the monkey poem, it speaks better than me on this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJM4EBuL82o

I'm not saying we aren't black and white and totally open to everything and have no morals. I'm standing on the side that we come into the party with pre-conceived notions from nurture and nature and will harbor those and use them to decide what greys become white and black to us. Tigers aren't bad in a zoo. Tigers in my living room are bad. Those are black and white things I have deduced. Quest games are linear, Sandbox games let me move in any direction. Another black and white thing that I have embedded from gaming experience. If a game wants to prove otherwise, nothing is stopping them.

Until they do, I, like others, have my sides and don't pretend that I don't to stand on a higher moral ground of understanding. We could all sit on a yogi fence for our lifetimes pondering mans' ills while saying nothing is in stone, the universe will right the wrong but who is going to play these games.  Someone has to, that starts with a narrowing down of the game with preferences, black and white wants and desires, then the installation. If your mindset was grey I suppose you would have to try every game on the planet, nay, I don't have that much time.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/02/13 3:39:11 PM#23

Never trust a philosophy, it's just using you to propagate itself.

  User Deleted
2/02/13 4:07:26 PM#24


Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Quirhid
Does the person doing the simplification doing it for some agenda?

I dont think they have an agenda - they just wear "black or white" glasses when everything is shades of grey

Sometimes, one needs to simplify a topic to keep the discussion narrowed down and not get too far off track.

I know Quirhid made this comment on my topic of "New MMO" vs "Old MMO" and the longevity of the two. The reason I did this is because there are soooooo many variables. I just wanted to focus on just a couple of things.

Look at the simple topics that get made very complicated because of anecdotal data that we all expand on and share as fact.

PS: Not everything is "shades of grey".

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6001

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  2/02/13 6:31:32 PM#25
Originally posted by greenreen

You just proved all of what I typed as true. Thanks for the honesty. You do take sides and grey turns to personal gain. See, that wasn't hard to admit. No lightning came down and struck you. I knew all I needed was something to be evoke a feeling in you. That feeling is the same thing some experience some have talks about games. Again, the passion is working.

Only thing you didn't admit was that people play games for reasons maybe you really think that is grey too and none of the reasons you listed are ever a factor in their mind saying all good or all bad. If only you had included graphics in your original post, then you know that wouldn't hold true, another black and white for many. There are legions that won't touch 2d games because they consider the developers amateurs. It has been the number one thing I could quote time and time again for people shrugging off games with decent gameplay inside complaining about how it doesn't look modern. This game looks old... next. 

If you don't believe in black and white then you don't believe in preference.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

Surely you have sometimes thought or typed. I "prefer" x over y, that again is black and white.

I know I'm simplifying it and you probably don't like that but it's truth. Things are only grey until you take a side, then they stop being grey. If you never take a side on anything THEN you can claim complete grey thoughts but that doesn't happen in humans. We do take sides and we do stand on them. I don't care if it's true from a philosophical standpoint of what we should or shouldn't be in theory, I only seek to speak it as truth because it is what we do. We are all animals. Have you heard the monkey poem, it speaks better than me on this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJM4EBuL82o

I'm not saying we aren't black and white and totally open to everything and have no morals. I'm standing on the side that we come into the party with pre-conceived notions from nurture and nature and will harbor those and use them to decide what greys become white and black to us. Tigers aren't bad in a zoo. Tigers in my living room are bad. Those are black and white things I have deduced. Quest games are linear, Sandbox games let me move in any direction. Another black and white thing that I have embedded from gaming experience. If a game wants to prove otherwise, nothing is stopping them.

Until they do, I, like others, have my sides and don't pretend that I don't to stand on a higher moral ground of understanding. We could all sit on a yogi fence for our lifetimes pondering mans' ills while saying nothing is in stone, the universe will right the wrong but who is going to play these games.  Someone has to, that starts with a narrowing down of the game with preferences, black and white wants and desires, then the installation. If your mindset was grey I suppose you would have to try every game on the planet, nay, I don't have that much time.

Capital punishment is wrong because it is inhumane, immoral and nearly all the arguments for it are false. Only thing for it is that its cheap. If we can't reform someone, we might as well save a penny and end the poor bastard. Just because I have chosen a side doesn't mean I am all for it. And just because it is black and white in the voting booth, doesn't make the issue black and white. Surely you can understand that.

It is like the few past political elections I feel I've not voted for the "best candidate" but rather the "lesser evil" so to speak. It is like many polls here. Actually, how I felt about AIBQuirky's thread was that there were no good choices in the poll. Firstly, a complicated topic was reduced to just two options - binary. Second, both options had assetions which could not be proven true. As much as I dislike old-school MMOs, naturally I refused to answer the poll and voiced my opinion about it.

Much of the nonlinear-linear discussion is a matter of perception. It is not a black and white issue. Many threads have discussed about what makes a sandbox and what makes a themepark. I believe, In truth there is only a handful, if any, features that make of either one. It is more in the how those features are made and how they interact with other features. Still, its very difficult to put a definition on it what combination makes a themepark and what makes a sandbox.

I can give you two examples of games which stand firmly in the gray area: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and Grand Theft Auto IV. I challenge you to put them into one or the other camp and tell me why.

It is pointless to even try to draw a clear line between the two, since most of the games are more or less somewhere in between. But I bet discussing whether game X is a sandbox or not is an endless source of argument. Atleast as long as you insist on seeing things as black and white. I'm sort of freed of that. I can refuse to put a jersey on if neither team suits me.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6001

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  2/02/13 6:38:50 PM#26
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


PS: Not everything is "shades of grey".

Everything is a shade of gray.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Theodwulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 226

2/02/13 6:43:39 PM#27
 some topics are simple... on or off.. no new taxes.. in a world where everything is finite there is an  on or off, you can't have both, stripping away all realism allows for having and eating cake but this can't happen..we know this. Limiting conversations to what can be acheived without an act of GOD or alien technology is helpfull to  finding a solution to perceived problems..and that is not just the Samuel Adams Spring Thaw Vareity Pack talking. The biggest issues are binary, some principles are absolute, the act of finding middle ground is a fabian tactic to get the opposition to abandon their principles for tranquility..the slippery slope ensues.
  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/02/13 7:22:49 PM#28
So about games ...
  AutemOx

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1719

2/02/13 11:26:18 PM#29
This whole thread is turning into a conversation that should be had shortly before getting the munchies.  I enjoyed the monkey video, greenreen.  Ya'll should take philosophy classes to help refine your minds and to better compose these thoughts.  That is meant as a compliment not an insult, I think its rather good.

Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 6001

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  2/03/13 4:06:01 AM#30
Originally posted by wormywyrm
This whole thread is turning into a conversation that should be had shortly before getting the munchies.  I enjoyed the monkey video, greenreen.  Ya'll should take philosophy classes to help refine your minds and to better compose these thoughts.  That is meant as a compliment not an insult, I think its rather good.

Those talks are always the best.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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