Originally posted by Yakkin

Make a small one and watch it slowly grow?

Make...a small graphical MUD?

We did that already. They called it Ultima Online, I believe.

In the fifteen years since, gamers have never once stopped complaining that time did not abruptly freeze at that point.

To put it as best I can, I don’t expect my real life to be like that of someone in Italy or Ghana.

So I am certainly not going to expect online life to be like real life, to live up to all the expectations and ideals I have in the real world. To be perfectly normal to me.

Online is a different country, if you go online you need to be able to accept that. Think of yourself as an explorer not a missionary and you will get the best out of the online world.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

But you do that, you basically gut the MMO market.  MMOs are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce.  They need large numbers of people to play.  If you go back to PVE only games, you're going to lose the overwhelming majority of paying players, thus most of the games will go under and the ones that remain will be mere shadows of their former selves.

No developer is going to do that.

Majority? Doubtful at this point.  The majority of players have gone over to the CareBear side, at this point ^^  They would certainly lose some, as there are those who still insist on a gank or be ganked rule set. Look at EVE online as an example of a PvP centric game that has almost twice as many PvE players as it does PvP.  Its even more so in many non PvP centric games.

Originally posted by Yakkin

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

But you do that, you basically gut the MMO market.  MMOs are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce.  They need large numbers of people to play.  If you go back to PVE only games, you're going to lose the overwhelming majority of paying players, thus most of the games will go under and the ones that remain will be mere shadows of their former selves.

No developer is going to do that.

Make a small one and watch it slowly grow?

Who is going to fund it?  Investors want immediate return on investment, they don't want to sit around for years of gameplay, after waiting for years of development, to start making money back.  They'll go invest in something else.

So no, that's not going to work.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

But you do that, you basically gut the MMO market.  MMOs are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce.  They need large numbers of people to play.  If you go back to PVE only games, you're going to lose the overwhelming majority of paying players, thus most of the games will go under and the ones that remain will be mere shadows of their former selves.

No developer is going to do that.

Majority? Doubtful at this point.  The majority of players have gone over to the CareBear side, at this point ^^  They would certainly lose some, as there are those who still insist on a gank or be ganked rule set. Look at EVE online as an example of a PvP centric game that has almost twice as many PvE players as it does PvP.  Its even more so in many non PvP centric games.

It's not just PvP though, it's all the people who feel that they have to compete with everyone around them instead of just playing the game.  They have to have the best gear, the best armor, the best everything, they have to complete the content first, they have to make it to level cap first, it's not about having fun, it's about beating others.

Those are the people who harm these games!

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

It's not just PvP though, it's all the people who feel that they have to compete with everyone around them instead of just playing the game.  They have to have the best gear, the best armor, the best everything, they have to complete the content first, they have to make it to level cap first, it's not about having fun, it's about beating others.

Those are the people who harm these games!

Beating others is fun. And that is pretty much human nature. Just look at all the progress update sites likw wow-heroes, diabloprogress, playerscore .....

Essentially you can rank yourself against the whole world if you want to.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

It's not just PvP though, it's all the people who feel that they have to compete with everyone around them instead of just playing the game.  They have to have the best gear, the best armor, the best everything, they have to complete the content first, they have to make it to level cap first, it's not about having fun, it's about beating others.

Those are the people who harm these games!

Beating others is fun. And that is pretty much human nature. Just look at all the progress update sites likw wow-heroes, diabloprogress, playerscore .....

Essentially you can rank yourself against the whole world if you want to.

Yeah I think most mmorpg players (whether they'll admit it or not) compare themselves to the players around them.  Now whether it bothers them if other players are doing better / worse is whole other story.

It's not an coincidence that so many games have an "inspect" feature.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

It's not just PvP though, it's all the people who feel that they have to compete with everyone around them instead of just playing the game.  They have to have the best gear, the best armor, the best everything, they have to complete the content first, they have to make it to level cap first, it's not about having fun, it's about beating others.

Those are the people who harm these games!

Beating others is fun. And that is pretty much human nature. Just look at all the progress update sites likw wow-heroes, diabloprogress, playerscore .....

Essentially you can rank yourself against the whole world if you want to.

 

I'm not on any of those and find the whole practice childish.  I find no enjoyment in beating someone up, stealing their stuff and lording it over them.  I do not feel superior because I got in a lucky hit or because I beat up someone smaller than me.

There's just no fun in that, sorry.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

It's not just PvP though, it's all the people who feel that they have to compete with everyone around them instead of just playing the game.  They have to have the best gear, the best armor, the best everything, they have to complete the content first, they have to make it to level cap first, it's not about having fun, it's about beating others.

Those are the people who harm these games!

Beating others is fun. And that is pretty much human nature. Just look at all the progress update sites likw wow-heroes, diabloprogress, playerscore .....

Essentially you can rank yourself against the whole world if you want to.

Yeah I think most mmorpg players (whether they'll admit it or not) compare themselves to the players around them.  Now whether it bothers them if other players are doing better / worse is whole other story.

It's not an coincidence that so many games have an "inspect" feature.

I don't.  I couldn't care less what anyone around me  does, I pay no attention whatsoever.  In fact, the only reason I've ever "inspected" anyone is if they're carrying something I haven't seen before and want to know what it is.  I find the whole MMO dick-waving contest to be immature.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

I'm not on any of those and find the whole practice childish.  I find no enjoyment in beating someone up, stealing their stuff and lording it over them.  I do not feel superior because I got in a lucky hit or because I beat up someone smaller than me.

There's just no fun in that, sorry.

So? It is no fun for you but others find it fun, and use those website. Don't tell me you don't know that it is popular.

You are not going to see this epleen practice going away soon.

Anonymity + self reliance in games is a perfect recipe for asshattery.

I'm all for anonymity, but some interdependence in games would be a retro-breath of fresh air.  A reputation that meant something?  When is the last time you saw that in a game?  Everquest?  Vanilla WoW?  *shrugs*

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

I'm not on any of those and find the whole practice childish.  I find no enjoyment in beating someone up, stealing their stuff and lording it over them.  I do not feel superior because I got in a lucky hit or because I beat up someone smaller than me.

There's just no fun in that, sorry.

So? It is no fun for you but others find it fun, and use those website. Don't tell me you don't know that it is popular.

You are not going to see this epleen practice going away soon.

No, we're not, yet it is exactly that e-peen practice that causes so many of the problems that we see.  Just because people have fun doing it doesn't mean it's a problem-free practice.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

No, we're not, yet it is exactly that e-peen practice that causes so many of the problems that we see.  Just because people have fun doing it doesn't mean it's a problem-free practice.

Define "problem". If you mean it irritates you (or some others who have similar preference as you), then sure, it is a "problem". Given how diverse the internet is, it is a problem that you just have to live you. There always will be others who enjoy stuff that you find irritating.

You can, of course, choose not to participate and ignore the whole thing. No one forces you to go to wow-heroes.com or diabloprogress.som.

I don't see how it is a problem for you when a) you can ignore the practice and not participate in any of the website or addon, and b) you can choose not to play with any players who like the practice.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

No, we're not, yet it is exactly that e-peen practice that causes so many of the problems that we see.  Just because people have fun doing it doesn't mean it's a problem-free practice.

Define "problem". If you mean it irritates you (or some others who have similar preference as you), then sure, it is a "problem". Given how diverse the internet is, it is a problem that you just have to live you. There always will be others who enjoy stuff that you find irritating.

You can, of course, choose not to participate and ignore the whole thing. No one forces you to go to wow-heroes.com or diabloprogress.som.

I don't see how it is a problem for you when a) you can ignore the practice and not participate in any of the website or addon, and b) you can choose not to play with any players who like the practice.

 

How would you ignore it if there are people (Not going to name names) that CONSTANTLY enter every thread of people like him are involved in putting in their 2 cents when they don't need to? Or in games they like. Your basically tellign him...you don't like it, leave or don't play.

Originally posted by Phelcher
The easiest way to improve this particular community, is to follow the mmorpg.com own rules and not be an open venue for those who require perental supervision.

ie: old enough to accept the mmorpg.com Terms of Service.


One u have an age group that does not require baby-sitting, then u can have a like-minded community, that host ideas and feedback.

Making a valid point, only to have it underminded (troll'd) by a 15 year old, is not conducive for adult discussion. Cannot have non-earners spouting off on things they, themselves..  have no means of aquiring.

How could you do that though unless a credit card has to be entered (No fee, just to verify 18+). And even then...who's to say and adult won't enter the info so their kid can get on anyways.

Not to mention it isn't always the teens (kids) who do it...sadly.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Phelcher
The easiest way to improve this particular community, is to follow the mmorpg.com own rules and not be an open venue for those who require perental supervision.

ie: old enough to accept the mmorpg.com Terms of Service.


One u have an age group that does not require baby-sitting, then u can have a like-minded community, that host ideas and feedback.

Making a valid point, only to have it underminded (troll'd) by a 15 year old, is not conducive for adult discussion. Cannot have non-earners spouting off on things they, themselves..  have no means of aquiring.

How could you do that though unless a credit card has to be entered (No fee, just to verify 18+). And even then...who's to say and adult won't enter the info so their kid can get on anyways.

 

Not to mention it isn't always the teens (kids) who do it...sadly.

Because money talks...

Honestly, I've been around since pong. With history, comes knowledge. Nothing has changed but the cadence.

A market will eventually find their premium customer. Ironically, it is one of the most vocal communities and one of the oldest. This whole genra would not exist, if it wasn't for those who played pen & paper role-playing games. Those people are the staple and backbone of any MMORPG community. It was on our $0.50/hour internet tab, that fueled these MUDs, that later went graphical.

We were the same people who had $2k systems back on the early 80's. Playing the first of these games like Wizardry. 

People tend to forget, that even Ultima Online (UO), had a massive following before it went online. The Ultima series and Lord British was an icon in the Role Playing industry. Most of us are about his age too..

Most roleplayers are not little kids, but veteran gamers who are all easily 40'ish & older now. Well established, just like Brad, Smed or any of our contemporaries.

So why are us Role-playing veteran's constantly being spoon-fed children-style trinket games..?

Again... word & cash are two different things. Most my age or not sharing "words" on an internet forum. But.. their wallet's are already fueling their kids (some of them you), their iPads & Xbox games.

My generation should have the respect of a premium $25/month metaworld to discover and roleplay in. Period!

This community will not improve, as long as you have a mix-dichotomy of income & age. (12 ~ 50+)

Some time back, we had just conducted a MMORPG.com poll of age, (most were past 30yrld), and a moderator got perturbed, because we had a (deleted) thread going, making phun of the game called Rusty Hearts. We all were laughing about who that game's target audience was... squarly the teeny-bopper (12 ~ 15). The thread went around our office floor, getting laughes. 

Yet, the mods deleted it and issued warning for being old (ie: laughing at a child's game). When clearly, the mod was personally insulted because he was much younger and was unable to see this community for what it was. True MMORPG players...   with transient talking heads, peeping in whenever some news struck their fancy.

Otherwise look who has been here for a while, forwarding well thoughout ideas, it is the oldschool Veteran gamer.

So.. as long as this Site continues it's marketing approach, you will always have friction here @ MMORPG.com. In other RPG communities, you don't not have this problem, because the people who are there, are so for MMORPG..  nothing other. Coincidentally, Massively doesn't have the issues we have here...  , but they also don't run Rusty Heart adverts all over their site either.

You get what you pay for...

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

 

We get blamed for alot of violence and problems. Maybe it is true since our community is so mean, racist, sexist, and generally evil (except for a few)

 

wut?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

No, we're not, yet it is exactly that e-peen practice that causes so many of the problems that we see.  Just because people have fun doing it doesn't mean it's a problem-free practice.

Define "problem". If you mean it irritates you (or some others who have similar preference as you), then sure, it is a "problem". Given how diverse the internet is, it is a problem that you just have to live you. There always will be others who enjoy stuff that you find irritating.

You can, of course, choose not to participate and ignore the whole thing. No one forces you to go to wow-heroes.com or diabloprogress.som.

I don't see how it is a problem for you when a) you can ignore the practice and not participate in any of the website or addon, and b) you can choose not to play with any players who like the practice.

 

But these are the majority of people who play these games!  We're talking about people who gank others, who act like immature children, etc.  It's hard not to play with them when they are seemingly the most common players in a lot of these games, especially PvP based games.  I have no idea where the whole website thing came from.

So, to get back to the topic, no matter how much fun gankers have ganking, it doesn't make ganking a good thing for most MMOs.