Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by bcbully

Wow. Hartsman did a hell of a job. I can't wait to see his next product. 

 

RIFT just came at the end of the WoWesk themepark era. 

Its interesting to see the praises for Hartsman, but after talking to ex trion employees that worked under him I got an entirely different viewpoint. 

Trion did the right thing letting him go, IMO. Hartsman is good at getting a good team together, but after that he needs to be removed from the mgmt process.

Hopefully he learns from his mistakes.

Can you please elaborate??

     I for one am glad he's leaving.. I don't think so much of he's lieaving as Trion pretty much kicked him to the curb, and rightfully so.. But then I hold Trion equally responsible for the glaring issues Rift has.. Scott suggested and designed a game that was a mini me version of WoW if I ever saw one.. There was basically only 1 path to level your characters.. Majority of end game content was nothing more then a raiders themepark treadmill..  I think most people that cancelled Rift like I did in the first year never gave SL a chance.. A first impression is a lasting impression.. I do hold both Scott and Trion at fault for the direction they chose to take Rift in the first place.. Personally I'll avoid anything that has Hartsman's name on it if I can help it.. 

     The really sad thing.. I was actually looking forward to ArcheAge, but now I find out that Trion was awarded publisher.. OH SHIT.. I truely hope that only responsibilty they will have is marketing, customer service, and maintenance stuff..  I assume XL games has final say on everything.. I do find it funny that Scott views himself as a problem solver consultant.. Really? Considering he didn't solve anything in Rift or EQ2.. LOL

In the end this guy has it right, and why games have little real vision anymore, instead shallow window dressing to appease "casuals" (kiddies).  After watching this I feel he's got it more, as opposed to less, right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

Originally posted by Silverbranch

In the end this guy has it right, and why games have little real vision anymore, instead shallow window dressing to appease "casuals" (kiddies).  After watching this I feel he's got it more, as opposed to less, right:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

I thought I might just breeze over this video, but ended up listening to the whole thing.  Not surprising, I suppose, since I am one of the people around here who have been complaining about the dumbing down of MMOs for the last several years.  Good post, thanks.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by MindTrigger

It's pretty simple, really.  This type of themepark is not going to cut it anymore.  Rift had a nice run, and Trion is a neat company, but Rift is part of a dying paradigm, or at least a paradigm that is shrinking.  There will always be room for a couple themeparks, but there probably won't be a WoW-killer that is a pure themepark.  By adding Dimensions, you can see that Trion is getting their heads wrapped around player driven content now, but  just tacking on housing instances is not enough.

I saw the same thing The Secret World, a game that should never have been a pure themepark.  They threw in the RP Theater features so players could have some fun, but it's too little, too late.  They could have added many more important hybrid features before worrying about that theater.

Game developers have got to understand by now, that if you are developing a pure themepark game at this stage, your business plan should be designed to get all the money you want back out of it within 90 days.  If your game remains profitable longer, great, but don't count on it.  

On another note, I think it was brilliant for Trion to take ArchAge on, and I'm betting they will learn a lot from it.  I can't think of many game companies I would be happy handling ArchAge for NA, and Trion is in the top 3 based on pure professionalism and how much effort they put into making Rift a great game.

I don't think it has anything to do with thempark vs sandbox. In fact, I think Sandbox games will sink faster as they have such a high learning curve and are pretty boring, in my opinion. I think it has more do with whether or not the game has new material for all level of players or not. Stormlegion was only for the players who have already maxed out characters so they lost the repeatability factor. That to me is the biggest problem. If Trion would have added another new intro area to the game, then I could see playing again. Right now, no. Also is the fact they used to have 2 separate factions but now can be mixed into three different ones? They lost their footing in ther own storyline/lore and that is one of the other issues going against the game.

 

I don't think player housing, added into any game, will save a game. It is another time sink/money sink is all. A grind is a grind and that is the issue. If you want new players and your current base to continue to play and start new characters, it can't be the same old areas over and over.

 

If Rift is going down, it means the company doesn't have the staying power or the people and it does not bode well for any game that they develop/publish. It means they will punish Paul to pay Peter, not a good way to run a game. They did some great things but they also did some really dumb things, which ultimately killed the game for me after 1 year of subbing to Rift. That means, to me, it doesn't bode well for Archage as they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater - if they do it to a game they put time into, why wouldn't they do it to one they are just publishing?

I disagree.  However, there will always be a market for casual/themepark games, even though the nature of those games will have to evolve beyond even what the best of them have to offer today.

The problem with themeparks is inherent to their design.  They aren't even sustainable from a developer's point of view. As Smedley pointed out, it is nearly impossible to create enough themepark content to keep a larger player base around.  It's too expensive for studios to make, and the players burn through the content a thousand times faster than it takes to make it.  Add to this that everyone is insisting on "free to play" now, and you have an unsustainable business model on multiple levels.  This is why SOE has seen the light and is taking EQ:Next in the direction of emergent, player driven gameplay.

From the player's perspective, there the 'been there and done that'  factor.  Themeparks feel pretty much the same, which is why so many people get bored with them and leave very shortly after release.  As time passes, this problem will only grow as more and more players become tired of the same old systems and gameplay in every game. New entries and people who are super-casual players will probably prefer the old themepark model, but those are likely to become somewhat niche too as the gaming public evolves beyond them and expects a more rich experience.

The next popular games will be more of a hybrid model at first, and those hybrid models will introduce gamers who have only played themeparks to emergent gameplay and player-driven content.  Once you let this cat out of the bag, many people want more.  It's hard to go back to living someone else's linear story line in a themepark, once you have played a game that allows you to create your own path through the game world.  In these games, you and your friends make your own quests by going out into the world and experiencing emergent gameplay. 

I don't know what your idea of a sandbox is, but I wouldn't try to compare it to much you've seen in the past.  The closest thing to a well rounded hybrid we've ever seen was Star Wars Galaxies, in my opinion.  While SOE did not have enough themepark content and what they had was clunky, the lesson was learned that players do want to experience story content once in a while, not just sandbox play.  Strike a good balance between these things, and let the player decide how to approach them and you are off to a great start for a modern hybrid game.  Players who enjoyed SWG loved the sandboxy freedom of it, but they also wanted some directed content, including an overarching story to the world.  In this case, the main factions and the Galactic Civil War.

There is a market for pure sandboxes too, and we'll likely see a few of these do quite well with smaller audiences just like EVE has.  The majority of players will likely stick to well themed and balanced hybrid games which allows them much greater freedom of expression and gameplay, while also giving them simpler sandbox systems and a nudge in the right direction in the form of some scripted quest and dungeon content.

He said he was stepping down from his position, not that he was leaving Trion. It was just the next day that ArcheAge was announced so it was possible he switched over to that project.

That said, I didn't read the Massively article yet so don't know if it was clarified that he left Trion or just Rift.

Originally posted by Jaedor

He said he was stepping down from his position, not that he was leaving Trion. It was just the next day that ArcheAge was announced so it was possible he switched over to that project.

That said, I didn't read the Massively article yet so don't know if it was clarified that he left Trion or just Rift.

Check out his linked in page hes not with trion now.   He is working for himself. 

Justresponding to the title: what sinking ship? I subscribe to Rift and have nothing but good things to say about it.

Everyone in my guild is playing everyday and are having great time.

Been playing again and I think the majority of posters here haven't seen Storm Legion or the changes Rift has made.

It's traditional themepark.  But one of the best if not the best out there.  

Pretty surprised at how well they've done tbh.

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Originally posted by Jaedor

He said he was stepping down from his position, not that he was leaving Trion. It was just the next day that ArcheAge was announced so it was possible he switched over to that project.

That said, I didn't read the Massively article yet so don't know if it was clarified that he left Trion or just Rift.

Stepping down is a polite way of saying leaving, especially in an executive position.  It's a way to signal that leaving without either party taking credit or blame for the event.

Originally posted by cyrana

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Alpha players couldn't deal with having their quest hubs turning into invasions.  The whole experience was too nerve wracking for the players, so they changed it and made it more of a hybrid.

Originally posted by cyrana

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Ah yes the good ol days when Rift was a sandbox........ 

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by cyrana

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Alpha players couldn't deal with having their quest hubs turning into invasions.  The whole experience was too nerve wracking for the players, so they changed it and made it more of a hybrid.

If you're talking about the small hubs not transforming into invasions, they did that after release.  It was called something else too.

I think sinking ship is way too strong of term to describe the current condition, however to pass off the mediocre success and declining base is disingenuous.  The game has seen a marked decline from the post launch fallout (the time after the first month/3 month subs expire and people move on).  They have merged and dumped servers over and over again.

It can still be a great game though and much more successful than it has been in the past if they just correct their course and iron out some wrinkles.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by cyrana

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Alpha players couldn't deal with having their quest hubs turning into invasions.  The whole experience was too nerve wracking for the players, so they changed it and made it more of a hybrid.

If you're talking about the small hubs not transforming into invasions, they did that after release.  It was called something else too.

I think sinking ship is way too strong of term to describe the current condition, however to pass off the mediocre success and declining base is disingenuous.  The game has seen a marked decline from the post launch fallout (the time after the first month/3 month subs expire and people move on).  They have merged and dumped servers over and over again.

It can still be a great game though and much more successful than it has been in the past if they just correct their course and iron out some wrinkles.

I'm not talking about the small hubs not transforming, but yes they did that too.  It's called a foothold and that still exists.

The only other part I'll mention is calling Rift a mediocre success.  Rift was a huge success for them.  Huge.

How big?  4 games either developed/published and they just got ArcheAge.

Rift's success is what allowed Trion to be a full fledge publisher.  You don't get that from mediocre success.

Oh and they made 70 million their first year of the game.

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by cyrana

Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

Alpha players couldn't deal with having their quest hubs turning into invasions.  The whole experience was too nerve wracking for the players, so they changed it and made it more of a hybrid.

If you're talking about the small hubs not transforming into invasions, they did that after release.  It was called something else too.

I think sinking ship is way too strong of term to describe the current condition, however to pass off the mediocre success and declining base is disingenuous.  The game has seen a marked decline from the post launch fallout (the time after the first month/3 month subs expire and people move on).  They have merged and dumped servers over and over again.

It can still be a great game though and much more successful than it has been in the past if they just correct their course and iron out some wrinkles.

I'm not talking about the small hubs not transforming, but yes they did that too.  It's called a foothold and that still exists.

The only other part I'll mention is calling Rift a mediocre success.  Rift was a huge success for them.  Huge.

How big?  4 games either developed/published and they just got ArcheAge.

Rift's success is what allowed Trion to be a full fledge publisher.  You don't get that from mediocre success.

Oh and they made 70 million their first year of the game.

They did have a good launch success and held okay their first year.  They have been in decline since then.  It's not like they don't have potential, but they keep making poor choices.

Investor support is what allowed Trion to become a full fledged publisher, not the Rift revenue.  They have published one game and are working on publishing four more.  Publishing Rift showed they could put something out the door.  What they do with Rift and how they publish their next lot will be defining I think.  They might end up being better publishers than they are a design studio.

I wasn't sure which mechanic you were talking about because I didn't alpha test.  I started early - mid beta and dont' remember the change you mentioned.  There were a few early event and soul/role mechanics they eventually shed, modified, or merged.

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Originally posted by jdnyc

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Originally posted by cyrana Before he came on board, the game was to be Heroes of Telara. Yes, the name was boring, but it was a lot more dynamic. Scott ripped most of the dynamic stuff out and made the whole thing a lot more like WoW and only kept the rifts.

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Alpha players couldn't deal with having their quest hubs turning into invasions.  The whole experience was too nerve wracking for the players, so they changed it and made it more of a hybrid.

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