Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by inzane3

I welcome any kind of measures taking against people that don't know how to behave in game. Perma Bans, Temp bans, any other form of punishment they can bring in. The more the better. 

But the company's goal is to avoid paying an expensive CE staff to do (among other things, policing) -- not to hire more of the Staff.

We will take our reduced services and like it, won't we? Yes we will.

Not to mention banning players is akin to biting the hand that feeds you.  It maybe necessary sometimes but you do have to tread lightly.

Unless you're a Japanese company and weild the ban hammer AND horrible customer support like a kid who found his dad's gun!

Originally posted by Edeus

Unless you're a Japanese company and weild the ban hammer AND horrible customer support like a kid who found his dad's gun!

Honestly, I firmly believe the "gamer community" would benefit by, say, an order of magnifude reduction in size.

But I envision most of the avocates for social controls, and what their systems would be like if put in place.

And the cure scares me one hell of a lot worse than the disease ever did.

Promise them public safety, or even just trains that run on time. Sounds awfully familiar to any student of history.

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

Promise them public safety, or even just trains that run on time. Sounds awfully familiar to any student of history.

It doesn't have to descend into facism you know.

heck, I swear up a storm in certain environments and in other enviroments people are astounded to hear that I have ever said anything that wasn't professional.

It's all about knowing where you are and realizing there is a time and place for everything.

Originally posted by inzane3

I welcome any kind of measures taking against people that don't know how to behave in game. Perma Bans, Temp bans, any other form of punishment they can bring in. The more the better. 

 

Or may be you should just learn to use the ignore button. It would be like they are banned just for you.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

Promise them public safety, or even just trains that run on time. Sounds awfully familiar to any student of history.

It doesn't have to descend into facism you know.

Of course not, and I specifically avoided summoning the Godwin monster.

But social controls are delicate things, not prone to simple plans. Gamers, discussing them on forums, tend to favor solid declarations of how it's such an easy, simple solution.

It's a people problem, involving behavior--basic problems don't get more complicated. The magic wand solution doesn't exist. Spanking your children isn't a magic bullet, no matter how often Granny swears by it, or Dr. Spock swore about it; and politicians who promise you easy solutions are lying.

And argument by analogy is always extraordinarily trickly too :P

Guess we need Dr. Phil to tell us to grow up and stop playing games. There you go, easy answer.

Originally posted by Drolkin

I remember in UO there were guilds called "AzN Killahs" which were actually westerner guilds focused on pking/harrassing asian guilds, they got so out of hand that Origin had to dismantle those guilds.

 

Or lets not forget how everyone's attitudes changed when Molten Core came to WoW, people went from enjoying the game to stabbing eachother in the back for epics.

 

Or even in Warcraft 2 ladder where the famous QQ came from.

 

etcetc

 

I agree with the OP.

zero sum DKP

solves all loot squabbles

Originally posted by Icewhite

It's a people problem, involving behavior--basic problems don't get more complicated. The magic wand solution doesn't exist. Spanking your children isn't a magic bullet, no matter how often Granny swears by it, or Dr. Spock swore about it; and politicians who promise you easy solutions are lying.

 

Of course it does for some behavior.

Rolling your own loot (LFR in WOW, or D3) solves the ninja-ing problem by simply making it impossible.

Smack talk is one thing.  Verbally attacking people with grotesque insults and/or griefing is a whole other thing.

It's not about being thin skinned either.  It's about everyone having a right to enjoy themselves without some socially mal-adjusted idiots ruining the experience.  Smack talk in context with the game makes sense.  

There are games that allow just about any behavior, such as DarkFall, and you either accept that with the game, or don't play it.  Darkfall is widely known for having the worse community on the planet too.  However, this does not mean such behavior should be universally accepted in gaming.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Icewhite

It's a people problem, involving behavior--basic problems don't get more complicated. The magic wand solution doesn't exist. Spanking your children isn't a magic bullet, no matter how often Granny swears by it, or Dr. Spock swore about it; and politicians who promise you easy solutions are lying.

 

Of course it does for some behavior.

Rolling your own loot (LFR in WOW, or D3) solves the ninja-ing problem by simply making it impossible.

But we're not discussing one specific behavior.

We're discussing the ridulously large one-umbrella "unspecified internet anonymity asshat" problem.

On a case by case basis, we can declare one easy answer: "Grow a thicker skin." Effective, but not too satisfying. The Black Hats don't get Punished.

But the corporate-issued easy answer™ comes with some dangerous built-in privacy issues.  As Robert Kotick discovered to his dismay.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Smack talk is one thing.  Verbally attacking people with grotesque insults and/or griefing is a whole other thing.

It's not about being thin skinned either.  It's about everyone having a right to enjoy themselves without some socially mal-adjusted idiots ruining the experience.  Smack talk in context with the game makes sense.  

There are games that allow just about any behavior, such as DarkFall, and you either accept that with the game, or don't play it.  Darkfall is widely known for having the worse community on the planet too.  However, this does not mean such behavior should be universally accepted in gaming.

I doubt you'll find any clear line as to where smack talk ends and insults begin.  That leaves your fate to some GM of questionable intelligence who might be having a bad day.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

Promise them public safety, or even just trains that run on time. Sounds awfully familiar to any student of history.

It doesn't have to descend into facism you know.

Of course not, and I specifically avoided summoning the Godwin monster.

But social controls are delicate things, not prone to simple plans. Gamers, discussing them on forums, tend to favor solid declarations of how it's such an easy, simple solution.

It's a people problem, involving behavior--basic problems don't get more complicated. The magic wand solution doesn't exist. Spanking your children isn't a magic bullet, no matter how often Granny swears by it, or Dr. Spock swore about it; and politicians who promise you easy solutions are lying.

And argument by analogy is always extraordinarily trickly too :P

Guess we need Dr. Phil to tell us to grow up and stop playing games. There you go, easy answer.

hmmm, don't know about that, every "kid" I knew while growing up, who was  spanked, actually turned out "ok".

But that's just personal observation and I can't say that that works for every kid. Then again, if I had kids (or wanted them) I would spank.

I've never advocated the parent as friend way of parenting.

Or, if one doesn't want to spank, then throw away their toys.

meh, I'm too old school to have it any other way I suppose.

All I know is that people swear, using colorful language, etc, and yet in professional situations they are professional. At least within circles where it's expected.

There is a time and place for every type of behavior and yet there are people who have yet to learn it. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and really see some of these people in their own lives to see if they really are that way or if they are just "angry young men" who don't have any outlet for their unhapiness other than the internet.

Originally posted by Sovrath

There is a time and place for every type of behavior and yet there are people who have yet to learn it. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and really see some of these people in their own lives to see if they really are that way or if they are just "angry young men" who don't have any outlet for their unhapiness other than the internet.

Or (more likely) they have a perfectly servicable 'don't swear around your ganny' mask to wear in Official Behave situations, like mose people do. Ever notice how easily they stop swearing when the Vice Principal walks around a corner? The same ones who later use the "it just slips out, I can't help it" Online non-defense later in the day?

They may not (often) agree with you (or I) what situations it applies to. That's all.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Sovrath

There is a time and place for every type of behavior and yet there are people who have yet to learn it. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and really see some of these people in their own lives to see if they really are that way or if they are just "angry young men" who don't have any outlet for their unhapiness other than the internet.

Or (more likely) they have a perfectly servicable 'don't swear around your ganny' mask to wear in Official Behave situations, like mose people do. Ever notice how easily they stop swearing when the Vice Principal walks around a corner? The same ones who later use the "it just slips out, I can't help it" Online non-defense later in the day?

They may not (often) agree with you (or I) what situations it applies to. That's all.

As I was on the subway I was reading the paper and was noticing all the "group arrested for... man arrested for... " articles.

It made me think back to the idea that societies have laws for a reason. One could say "hey just ignore the red light district or the drug dealers or the homeless who take over bus shelters, just ignore the guy who shoplifts a stick of gum (big deal a stick of gum) or a CD.

But the thing is, at some point ignorign doesn't work. It's like all those players on this forum who go nuts because they log into "x" asian game (looking at you Aion) and see the gold seller spam everywhere. Including the private stores. One could ignore it and it's even a valid approach until one day you just get tired of hitting ignore on a daily basis. The game becomes poison and you say you've had enough and you move on.

Now, one could just allow some downtown to go to the dogs and just "be what it will be" but eventually it ceases to become a viable part of the city and it just becomes infested with the weeds of humanity.

There will always be people who give to socieity, those who mind their own business but aren't a drain and those who require more resources just because of who they are.

After a while people are going to find these communities too poison and they will not log in. This in and of itself might not be a big deal if there is a majority who can support the game and want an "everything goes" mentality and the developers are agreeable.

But it is noticed that the community will degenerate and how far that community degenerates into the cesspool of humanity depends on the game company.

And it then comes back to being an economic issue for game companies if they can't draw enough people because they are inundated. but then again maybe in the long run there are enough people who don't care? Not sure.

My only thought is for these games to have a channel that isn't moderated. And, as long as players don't break any local laws, they can chat in whatever way they want.

Then have a general chat that is moderated. Just like real life, one can choose the bar they want to go to, whether it's biker bar/strip joint or some shi-shi upscale club.

Because clearly, as you have indicated, there are groups of people who just don't mix.