Originally posted by LadyEuphei

FTP is an issue in a way. I love FTP but I agree with no lose of money people dont care if they troll. No one talks about how they lost their totally free RoM account on here and I doubt anyone will.

If there was a monthly charge to access the MMORPG.com site - articles, forums, videos, etc. - do you feel the community on these boards would be better, smaller, or both?

Also, would you - a positive, contributing member of the community by any measure - be here if there was a monthly fee to do so?

OP, you have a point and its time we, the community, rid ourselves of he negativity.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

FTP is an issue in a way. I love FTP but I agree with no lose of money people dont care if they troll. No one talks about how they lost their totally free RoM account on here and I doubt anyone will.

I have two accounts with Aeria, and yes I would care if I lost one or both of my accounts. But that is because I've invested time, and have friends that I know only by way of those accounts.

If there was a monthly charge to access the MMORPG.com site - articles, forums, videos, etc. - do you feel the community on these boards would be better, smaller, or both?

Also, would you - a positive, contributing member of the community by any measure - be here if there was a monthly fee to do so?

 

Smaller only. Sure there would be fewer of the bomb throwing variety of troll, but there would still be trolls. A good troll knows how to troll without violating any aspect of the ToS. Proof? Go to any paid games boards, there be trolls and flame wars. Only they are sometimes more quickly dealt with on a paid site.

And no, I wouldn't be here if I had to pay for access.

Some times its us vs. developers

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen !

This game web forum has the same negativity as any other. If you would like to bitch about people bitching pick on developers for making crappy games.........Players are pissed.

Back in the 80-90s you could only go by what the deves tell you on the back of the box at the store.  99% of the games were un-playable and half done.  BUT THE BACK OF THE BOX SOUNDED GOOD !

Are games better now :

Kind of, only because of the internet and forums to spread the word.  Players get really pissed off when games are crap.  Some times things are not even broaken but at times they go in the wrong direction.  Some new features cause mixed feelings that devide the community, Some examples :

Dungeon Finders, with out asking us

Free-to-play, with out asking us

Games that turn easy with out asking us

And many others

Think about what your asking for..............

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

So, there has been a large amount of talk about the gaming community being toxic. It is fine and well to dwell in the negative, but how can we fix it? We are all smart people here, so lets put our brains together and maybe we can accomplish something. What do you think we can do?

What exactly is wrong with being negative about something? Why does it need fixing? Being, 'negative', about a company has helped me personally get money back owed from following advice from other forum users here.  That never would have happened if we lived in your utopia.  One can't exist without the other, there needs to be a balance. Sure there are always those who go too far and should be ostracised but as humans we need to share opinions and experiences regardless of their outcomes to survive. Being, 'happy-go-lucky', all the time just doesn't help long term.

Example 1:

I know as a female gamer I have seen several "support" groups/communities for female gamers open up over the years. They emphasize girl gamers being normal players and deserve the same respect of any male gamer. Do you think a anti-being-an-a-hat community would work to fix our problem? 

On a practical side this would never work because the only ones who have any power to hurt arseholes are the actually gaming companies and as long as those arseholes are paying the company, nine times out of ten the companies will turn a blind eye. Internet campaigns don't have a great track record anyway, 'Save COH', generated a misely 10k signatures for a game on this site a lot of people love. 

Example 2:

League of legends has started banning pro gamers that are toxic to show that they will not take it and that it is not ok on any level of skill. They have also implemented the honor system to try and make people think about the positive and not only the negative (reporting). I personally think it has worked wonders on the community and given it a fighting chance at maybe recovering from its a-hat infection.

LOL will always be a competitive game, therefore it'll always have that element of trash talk.  A lot of those recent changes were done to appease an expanding advertising base for it's tournaments, i.e. most targeted advertisers want to appeal to sexually fraustrated 15 year olds but don't want to be associated with them so Riot made an example of a couple of high profile offenders. That's really the only reason for it from what I can gather.

We get blamed for alot of violence and problems. Maybe it is true since our community is so mean, racist, sexist, and generally evil (except for a few) If we were to try to activally pursue change and growth of our community out of being 4-6 year olds into being 21/25+ people maybe we could lose a bit of the media heat that we get. So, think. Think hard and lets come together and figure out how we can make a better community!

Honestly there are so many bizzare assumptions here I'm not sure I can answer this without sounding insulting. Games are not the reason for violence and other problems generally speaking. if you seriously believe that then your far too susceptible to right wing media or you associate far too much of your identity as a, 'gamer' and see it as a personal insult.  Much like the media used to blame violent films for unspeakable violence to others back in the 80/90s, it's what certain media types use as a reason for why inexpaibly horrible things happen.  There's a problem they don't understand so they blame another thing that doesn't appeal to them so they feel better about a world they don't understand.  It's been happening for thousands of years as has acts of random insanity.

Also all communities regardless if it's online or not have those nasty elements to them, they just don't always do it to your face.  Maybe you've never worked in an office before but many across the world have some of the most ruthless, two faced bastards you'll ever come across. At least online if someone hates you, they'll tell you about it, frankly I've always prefered it that way.

People by their very nature will not change in an anonymous enviroment like this, no matter how arseholey they are or what you wish they'd be like.  Sure I've seen communities try to rid bad elements through their own involvements but no matter how many bad eggs you throw out another one always creeps their way in eventually.  The only way people evolve is through parenting and education, a proper system of values that doesn't extend just to who can smash your face in for what you say.  That is why no matter what you suggest it'll never work because you or I have no influence over it.

tl;dr

How do you think we can fix the gaming community?

It's not are responsibility to, we all just have to try and avoid the arseholes and treat others as we'd like to be treated....

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

Originally posted by ariasaitcho
 

Being a girl gamer, that has some parts of her that are a bit...bigger... than others makes me a huge target. What you have to realive is when you give them credit for pissing you off they get all hapy and then when you stop feeding them they private message you unitl they stop and then they just die off.

I deal with people in games/forums exactly as would would deal with them IRL. Ignore some, avoid some, and report those who cause harm to the authorities. It's not rocket science; just because I've created a virtual character I don't feel a need to act too much differently from the real me. I'm a 46yr old man. It's not that I don't have active fantasies, it's that I don't feel the need to impose those fantasies on others. Or act them out in any but the most "private" situations. The people who act differently on line than off are, more often than not;  the problem.

For me what it comes down to is this. The distinction between my gaming life (lives?) and real life is small. I'm a bit more talkative in games, I'm a bit more free with my opinions; but I'm still me. I may not go by the same name but I'm still the one controlling that avatar. And whether or not there are direct, real world concequences to my actions in that virtual world is irrelevant. I know good from bad. I would never intentionally cause harm to another. This does not mean I haven't said or done something that I've come to regret, I am an imperfect human. I apologise as best I can, and try move on.

I guess the point I've been trying to make between my two posts is that you can't change this virtual world without first changing the outside "real" world first. Until that happens, that nice place to hang out and have fun ain't gonna happen here any more that it is gonna happen down at your neighborhood pub. There will always be some lout seeking to "rain on your parade" or who doesn't know how to interact with the opposite sex. Sad but true.

Originally posted by Scot

Those who want change conveniently forget the avenues they already have open to them. You can use a filter channel and ignore command. You can report harassment.

And all that I agree with, harassment and so on is just not acceptable and should be punished.

But this is not enough, not only must people be punished for what you do not like, they must think like you. This sort of social engineering, where you want to get the Thought Police onto anyone who does not agree with you is the standard method political correctness uses to twist society into the image it wants it to be regardless of reality.

You are not advocating the Thought Police you say? What do you think an honour system is? Social pressure like that is an insidious way of getting people to think what you want them to think. Pat them on the back when they have been good boys and girls like Pavlov’s dogs.

“We get blamed for alot of violence and problems. Maybe it is true since our community is so mean, racist, sexist, and generally evil (except for a few)”

Gamers get blamed by the media for a lot of things, does that mean it is true? If that is really your opinion of our community might I suggest you stay away from it? We are not that bad, just don’t expect us all to think exactly like you do and you will find us very welcoming.

I don’t want LadyEuphei to reveal her age on these forums, but I would suggest you are very young and have like we all did an extremely idealistic view on life. 21 to 25? Yes you are very young, even though you might think you have seen it all by your early twenties. :D

Well stated.  The basic idea is that certain ideologies have a flawed fundamental assumption.  That being the perfectability of humanity.  Both "progressives" and "conservatives" share this fallacy (which of course is ironic...^^).  GREAT evil flows from that fallacy.

Video games (and their communities) are just one of the current scapegoats.  Before that it was comics and rock and roll music (and before that an endless list)  Those holding these ideologies always seek an external focus, when the flaw (if one can rightly term it such) lies within each of us. 

Its been fascinating to watch the development of PC, as it inflitrated different aspects of the political and social system. 

Its also been interesting, and educational, observing how the power system has reacted to its rise, and co opted it for its own purposes.  But enough of that for now.

Bottom line, its very dangerous to set out on a course of social engineering, no matter how noble ones purpose is. Some of the worst tyrants have been those who had some of the most lofty goals.   

In terms of gaming communities, the only real practical course (as much as it may annoy Activists) is to make frequent use of the /ignore command and to report those who over step ones personal line of outragous behavior.   Beyond that lie the perils of PC and failed good intentions.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

FTP is an issue in a way. I love FTP but I agree with no lose of money people dont care if they troll. No one talks about how they lost their totally free RoM account on here and I doubt anyone will.

If there was a monthly charge to access the MMORPG.com site - articles, forums, videos, etc. - do you feel the community on these boards would be better, smaller, or both?

Also, would you - a positive, contributing member of the community by any measure - be here if there was a monthly fee to do so?

 

Smaller and about the same percentage of trolls, biting flies and other such.  As for the other, that depends on the amount.

Originally posted by IG-88

OP, you have a point and its time we, the community, rid ourselves of he negativity.

 

 

As long as each persons focus is on themselves, I'd quite agree.  Its when we move from that, to coercing others, no matter how noble the intention, that serious problems arise.

I think making games that focus on the community is the key. In League of Legends teamwork is vital to winning a game, when that breaks down you're sure as done. So that's why I think in the compeditive arena for LoL there is an improved community. It's not ideal, it's not a virtual Mayberry by any means, but it's real and not quite abusive.

In a MMO it'll be very hard to do.

A game where choices made by players matter doesn't really exist. You wipe on a raid I think the stiffest penalty out there is you have to wait 12 or 24 hours to try again. Most games don't even have that now.

Shadowbane had a great community despite what people said. Again it wasn't a virtual Brady Bunch, but the wheeling and dealing going on in game was quite real and people knew the weight of their decisions. They tried to game things in their favor most of the time.. BUT all is fair in love and war. That opprtunity to make friends and enemies equally just can't happen with liner progress gaming. So expecting people to behave in a manner where consequences matter isn't going to happen very likely.

I think a thumbs up, thumbs down, community decides tribunal system is about as good as it's going to get. With most games that just means trolls need multiple accounts to circumvent any real meaningful punishment.

I doubt it can be fixed, as humans have been crappy to each other since the invention of war.

Peer or social pressure can be effective in many cases, as people generally want to find a sense of belonging in society and will look to find others with similar perspectives. Online communities have seen some benefit from rep/like/voting systems and this can clean up a forum community like mmorpg.com.

But society on the whole is getting more aggressive and there is no way to collectively tame it. Best you can do is work on yourself and apply it to others. This also has the effect of being more patient in the face of aggression, which means there is less reaction, etc.

To fix this problem for everyone would be impossible. Some people are bullheaded, stubborn as all hell, and want to feel important.

How I've learned to deal with the online mmo atmosphere is by the following. Know in your head that probably well over half the people that you meet that are total holes to you probably just finished getting the same treatment from somebody else. You can either start gaining the attitude yourself, or you can turn on the "whatever bro" attitude.

The "Whatever Bro", is a technique that instead of letting jabs, and purposeful attacks incite you to flame back or retort in a likewise manner, you instead shrug it off and take everything with a grain of salt. You'll find out that a good portion of the community you thought was acidic and terrible will find themselves getting guilty really quickly when instead of being inflammatory in response, you're all like "whatever bro, next". Nobody's perfect, but within the personality of every gamer that has ever picked up an MMO is a person I can cooperate and get things done with if I know how to handle the social situation and coddle it into my favor.

Be above the anger when you're dealing with these people and enjoy your games! This is why we play!

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

If there was a monthly charge to access the MMORPG.com site - articles, forums, videos, etc. - do you feel the community on these boards would be better, smaller, or both?

Also, would you - a positive, contributing member of the community by any measure - be here if there was a monthly fee to do so?

 

Nah .. i will just go to a free board.

How could I have forgotten? There is an answer!

42

Originally posted by Kyleran

Naw, one thing A type personalities understand is brute force, send active, agressive moderators after them and ban mercilessly and at the very least you can drive them out of the game.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by LadyEuphei

Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!

The problem is, there isn't a solution.  In any competitive community, you are going to have tons of Type A personality types who are basically bags of free-floating hostility.  Those are the kinds of people drawn to MMOs, the people who desperately want to compete and be #1.  The only way to change it is to stop MMOs from being competitive, in other words, to stop having MMOs at all, or at the very least, have developers make games that don't appeal to 80% of their audience.

Not going to happen.

Naw, one thing A type personalities understand is brute force, send active, agressive moderators after them and ban mercilessly and at the very least you can drive them out of the game.

Question is, do developers really not want to take their money?  These days the answer seems to be no.   In years gone by more did, but not so true today.

 

Won't work, the majority of people who play these games today are the type A's, you throw them out, the game goes out of business because there just aren't enough people left who are not  competitive to keep it running.  It's like running around a retail store throwing out all the people with money.  It's financial suicide.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Kyleran

Naw, one thing A type personalities understand is brute force, send active, agressive moderators after them and ban mercilessly and at the very least you can drive them out of the game.

How long do you think we would last?

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

But you do that, you basically gut the MMO market.  MMOs are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce.  They need large numbers of people to play.  If you go back to PVE only games, you're going to lose the overwhelming majority of paying players, thus most of the games will go under and the ones that remain will be mere shadows of their former selves.

No developer is going to do that.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Cephus404

Not long at all.  People have to remember that MMOs are basically built for the type-A people, they are competitive dick-waving machines, which is what type-A's thrive on.  Yes, you can get rid of all the things in an MMO that make them competitive, but they essentially stop being an MMO.  People have to ask themselves, which would they rather have, MMOs and idiots playing them, or no idiots and no MMOs.  You can't have it both ways.

Well, there is a third way; back to uncompetitive games. PVE only, MUDtown.

That removes most of the trophy/status drive that keeps people paying subscriptions. Kind of leaves the PVP folks back out in the dark again, too.

Even so, you'll still have the level-racers or economy-dominators or (who knows) finding a metagame to compete with instead.

But you do that, you basically gut the MMO market.  MMOs are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce.  They need large numbers of people to play.  If you go back to PVE only games, you're going to lose the overwhelming majority of paying players, thus most of the games will go under and the ones that remain will be mere shadows of their former selves.

No developer is going to do that.

Make a small one and watch it slowly grow?