Originally posted by Isturi

In a  Interview  SOE Smedley "says that since the move to free-to-play, SOE has seen a 300 percent increase in new players for EverQuest 2, a 125 percent increase in item sales for EverQuest and a 350 percent bump in overall registrations. Planetside 2, its most recent release, has more than 1.6 million registered users, with 750,000 logging in to play every week."

Notice that the factual references completely omit "Net Profit".  If sales are up 25% but costs up 100%, that's hardly growth.

Originally posted by Robokapp

i'm not sure how attacking P2Ps helps F2Ps but thanks for the fix.

 as the 2007+ era thought us, if step 1 includes "crap", then steps 5 and 6 are the same regardless of payment model.

 

it's not too expensive no matter what model it is. MMOs are the cheap alternative to real entertainment.

 

If it's too bad to be worth the money and / or time, most often too bad to be worth the TIME, really, it will fail under any model.

 

There's browser games out there that are 100% free. They're meaningless little distractions that don't have a billion players because the financial model is so great. Next step is them paying us to play...

 Well, I'm not sure how attacking F2Ps helps P2Ps either.

You are basing the idea that a game must be BAD to not be worth paying for and thus all F2Ps must be bad. You dont factor in that people are learning that being charged money per month is a SCAM because the quality of F2P games and B2P games are now matching the BEST P2P games.

[mod edit]

Actually, PS2 IS meant for the mainstream audience.

If it was not they would not have removed 90% of the mechanics and flair that made PS1 unique, but more niche and ultimatly more fun.

Instead SOE opted to mimic BF and CoD just on a larger scale, and every single mechanic in the game is intended to appeal to the massive FPS kiddies that can't handle a game with any sort of stratetic element.

Originally posted by jtcgs

 This is complete BS. Nexon made a bid on EA...holy crap where did you get 17 million from?!?

Nexon went public on the Tokyo stock exchange in 2011...and had the SECOND LARGEST OPENING for a tech company in HISTORY...only outdone by Facebook. AND they BOUGHT NDOORS for 153.9 MILLION...

2011  = 1.12 BILLION US dollars.

Yes, they made over a bil including every single region, but their NA division only made 17 mil.   They are large across the pacific, but their NA and EU division isn't doing so hot.   Why do you think they wanted to purchase EA?   If they can't get a foot hold, then buy someone who already does.

Originally posted by Rider071

I agree with Smedley (this time). SOE has helped advance the F2P model far beyond what it was 2 years ago. They have made various matrixes for their games, so good, some bad, but definitely new and innovative.

Personally I loved the matrix they held for EQ2:Extended, but they changed that model when they opened F2P to the entire game, which was sad. But hey, they take chances to make the most profit they can in the end.

I play EQ1 as my default game, and I support SOE in buying it's game cards for SOE cash, but once a better game (or hyped game) comes out, I do go and play it...because F2P gives me the freedom to do so, and also because SOE has yet to find the perfect matrix that doesn't make me feel that I'm not able to experience the entire game. Preventing gear without the ability to unlock said gear through payment is definitely a gamestopper for me, as why I have no intention to see end game in EQ1 (my first mmo love).

Currently though I am playing TERA, with their announcement to F2P I purchased the game to become a 'founder'. It was bumbpy getting into the game (those problems solved), but the game is definitely fun, and wel worth the B2P investment so far. Their matrix looks very promising as well.

Honestly, I know many gamers over the years, and I have yet to talk to a single one i know personally that still plays WoW, or subs to any P2P game at all. So not sure where the sub numbers come from for WoW, but i have a very strong feeling that the numbers are false. I just can't understand how anyone would sub to a P2P game when there are so many great F2P games out there today, there really are.

EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, PSP2, DCOU, Aion, Aika, AoC, LotRO, WARTrial, TERA, DDO, Perfect World International, GW1, GW2....just to name a few I have experienced and regularly play. There are so many more, and so many more to come

i still play wow - bought mists of pandaria and subbed :<

nostalgia and curiosity i guess? xD

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Originally posted by jtcgs

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Originally posted by thinktank001

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Originally posted by jtcgs If you dont have millions of subscribers, you will make far more with a good F2P offer. Anyway, before Nexons bid, few took F2P seriously as a money maker...becaue most companies are short-sighted and locked on old thinking and never REALLY LOOKED at what Asian and some European companies were making...I mean come on Runes of Magic was making more money that FUNCOM was making total for 3 YEARS STRAIGHT! One F2P game, making more than every game Funcom had going.

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This is complete bs.   Nexon (NA) had 17 milliion in revenue 2011.   That is less than a 100k subscribers between all their games they offer.

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 This is complete BS. Nexon made a bid on EA...holy crap where did you get 17 million from?!?

Nexon went public on the Tokyo stock exchange in 2011...and had the SECOND LARGEST OPENING for a tech company in HISTORY...only outdone by Facebook. AND they BOUGHT NDOORS for 153.9 MILLION...

2011  = 1.12 BILLION US dollars.

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EA on the other hand made $4.2 billion in revenue. The year before they made $3.8 billion.

EAs digital distribution(PopCap Games, Origin) makes more in year than the entirety of Nexon.

Give it up already, Nexon cant come close to EA.

Originally posted by jtcgs

No...

Nexon's bid was a joke.

Nexon has made 1.2 billion in profits each of the last two years. EA has been averaging around 1.4 billion a year.

EA is still the largest in the world, Nexon is #2 in the world. They made a bid to get people to actually LOOK at Nexon, and how they got where they did to shake up the MMO world, they are the reason why so many companies in the genre took a serious look at the F2P market, and saw that the real money is not in the subscription field unless you have a massive product like WoW.

If you dont have millions of subscribers, you will make far more with a good F2P offer.

Anyway, before Nexons bid, few took F2P seriously as a money maker...becaue most companies are short-sighted and locked on old thinking and never REALLY LOOKED at what Asian and some European companies were making...I mean come on Runes of Magic was making more money that FUNCOM was making total for 3 YEARS STRAIGHT! One F2P game, making more than every game Funcom had going.

EA is not the largest in the world.  EA is currently the third largest video game publisher in the world.  Nintendo and Activision/Blizzard are larger at the moment in terms of annual revenue.  Sony and Microsoft Games are also very close, if not larger by now.

I don't believe EA was ever the largest.  They were second at one point behind Nintendo.  They used to be the largest game publisher in the US though.

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Originally posted by XAPGames

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Originally posted by Isturi In a  Interview  SOE Smedley "says that since the move to free-to-play, SOE has seen a 300 percent increase in new players for EverQuest 2, a 125 percent increase in item sales for EverQuest and a 350 percent bump in overall registrations. Planetside 2, its most recent release, has more than 1.6 million registered users, with 750,000 logging in to play every week."

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Notice that the factual references completely omit "Net Profit".  If sales are up 25% but costs up 100%, that's hardly growth.

 

 

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So many good posts in this thread. /waves all.

Originally posted by Phelcher
Those who dont see pay to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to subscribe to anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

$240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

Cant argue logic.

Originally posted by Phelcher
Those who dont see pay to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to subscribe to anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

$240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

 I have a mortgage, I don't have a bar tab.  I have no issues with f2p. 

Originally posted by Isturi

In a  Interview  SOE Smedley "says that since the move to free-to-play, SOE has seen a 300 percent increase in new players for EverQuest 2, a 125 percent increase in item sales for EverQuest and a 350 percent bump in overall registrations. Planetside 2, its most recent release, has more than 1.6 million registered users, with 750,000 logging in to play every week."

Now lets face it in my every so humble opinion. SOE I feel is not the giant it think it is in the MMO world and hey if F2P is working well for SOE then great, fantastic. Truth be told they will never keep up with the indrustry leader's that still use P2P format. I honestly do not see P2P going anywere any time soon.

 Yeah, while i have nothing against F2P, I am more then willing to pay a sub for a good game. SOE and Smedly IMHO have made enough cluess choices in their time that nothing they make could survive except via the charity of F2P players. Everything they produce is either low quality or eventually dumbed down to low quality. Perhaps their motto should be Games by Idiots for idiots, yeah a bit harsh perhaps but then again look at their F2P model that actually cost most of their players more then a subscription (using EQ2 as a example) Can't do math? Good we want you as a customer. Sony.

of course f2p is the way to go...

It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

Why wouldn't they do it?

Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

For sony F2P really is the only way to go with MMO's. A Pay to Play title has to have quality, polish, variety, and the ability to keep players entertained and playing 20+ hours a week for 6 months and longer. 

 

 Eeks i agree with you! (Might be a first) in any case well put. All i can add is my opinion which is simply Sony does not produce (anymore) quality games with, polish, and variety. 

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by Isturi

Truth be told they will never keep up with the indrustry leader's that still use P2P format.

To whom are you reffering?

Blizzard? No one has, or ever will, come close to that "leader".

CCP? PS2 has nearly twice as many people logging in every week as Eve has subs.

Trion? See above.

Who else should we be looking to?

 and yet only a estimated 10% of the players that log into PS2 every week spend any money. (Some more then a $15 a month sub, many less) So basically if PS2 has twice as many players as you state but only 10% as many paying then Sony is making only rouglhy 20% what CCP is. (yes i know this is very rough estimate as CCP has a a cash shop as well, and the PS2 10% PS2 players might only send a dollar or might spend $50)

   Number of players especially when the majority are not buying into the cash shop does not equal earnings, and say what you will but less earnings does mean less money put to developement, patching, and content.

Originally posted by Sovrath

of course f2p is the way to go...

It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

Why wouldn't they do it?

Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

TY TY TY this video is 100% TRUTH!!!! And This is the main reason why I loath F2P MMO's or games for that matter. I just wish more people would see F2P for what it is and think about it before they spend hard earn cash into the greedy pockets of F2P games.

Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by Isturi

Truth be told they will never keep up with the indrustry leader's that still use P2P format.

To whom are you reffering?

Blizzard? No one has, or ever will, come close to that "leader".

CCP? PS2 has nearly twice as many people logging in every week as Eve has subs.

Trion? See above.

Who else should we be looking to?

 and yet only a estimated 10% of the players that log into PS2 every week spend any money. (Some more then a $15 a month sub, many less) So basically if PS2 has twice as many players as you state but only 10% as many paying then Sony is making only rouglhy 20% what CCP is. (yes i know this is very rough estimate as CCP has a a cash shop as well, and the PS2 10% PS2 players might only send a dollar or might spend $50)

   Number of players especially when the majority are not buying into the cash shop does not equal earnings, and say what you will but less earnings does mean less money put to developement, patching, and content.

You forget the whales, a small percentage of the paying players, who pay a lot more than $15 a month. That is where the true money is.

Originally posted by Sovrath

of course f2p is the way to go...

It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

Why wouldn't they do it?

Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

What is the "fair share"?  Who gets to decide that?  In a sub-free model with a cash shop it seems the company is saying it's fair to log on to their servers for no additional charge.  They get a populated game world, players get others to play with, and the company has potential revenue right there.

The fair share comes in, in my opinion of course, when they start charging for things players want.  If you don't want anything then being there and spending your time is what is fair.  Paying for what you use is fair.  So if someone wants to pay $30 a month for extra stuff, then that is their fair share.  If someone only wants to buy $10 worth of "stuff" every once in a while that is their fair share.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Sovrath

of course f2p is the way to go...

It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

Why wouldn't they do it?

Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

TY TY TY this video is 100% TRUTH!!!! And This is the main reason why I loath F2P MMO's or games for that matter. I just wish more people would see F2P for what it is and think about it before they spend hard earn cash into the greedy pockets of F2P games.

In the last couple of years, I've spent about $300 on Rift, $30 on TSW, $60 on GW2, $75 on EQ2 (included 3 months of Gold) and $20 on Tera.  When my Rift sub runs out May 15, then I will be locked out of content that I've paid for.  Which one is the greedy bastard?

Originally posted by Burntvet

Says the man/company that ran every P2P MMO they ever produced into the ground, by neglect, ineptitude, and mismanagement. Even the ones that "accidentally" started out well.

"Yeah.. it must be the business model..."

Dumbass.

Plenty of people pay for WoW, Eve, and other games.

SOE has just not put out any game worth paying for in the last 5-6 years.

 

People are tired of paying for "mediocre" games and for the next "clone with a twist."

That does not mean there is anything wrong with the sub model, just the offerings.

 

That is the problem. Lack of quality, not one business model vs another.

^^

The winner is...

Well to be honest i've always admired DDO market, but again is a BS market, you surely can get to "max" level without paying a dime, but that for sure will take an insane ammount of time and boredoom, of playing the same instances in almost every server available to collect Turbine Points to later buy them on your real server, then delete your characters and begin again the painful process...

What i have described there is the "old" model of F2P, in reality Turbine did a lot of cash with DDO, those visionaries who liked the game at year 1 decided to spend $200 on the game and get as many points as they could and went F2P forever owning everything on the game as much as a P2P.

I would not mind to spend $200 on a game that i know would enjoy, but lets be honest, only EQ1 and WoW had keept me going for more than 6 years (thats 1080 dollars right there that i would blast them again if the game is right), But can i expect this freaking industry to make something as good as those? certainly not, I been waiting for a game to blow my money on, but something that i feel its worth it, and sadly the market is so divided, and even the customers right now are crappy, they want the fast experience and the "FPS" experience, thinking that the old models were bad, they may have not been the best but surely can be improved .

Either way, the P2P market is nowhere dead, and as our fellow up there said, this interview comes from the most hideous man on the industry. P2P market is still there, and will be there for real good products, and if they want to raise the cut hell i would pay it if its the right game, but not shit like DarkFail, SWToR or Tera, for something good.

The business model is now to change because of the consumer hype is a better selling point than the game it self, hence they have to change it to absorb as much money as they can in the fastest way possible from those who can pay or want to pay to win. Well tell you that will happen, and its happening, but good gamers will always have a noce for those.