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General Discussion  » ESO devs: If you want to get open world PvP "right" read this...

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144 posts found
  zomard100

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 232

1/28/13 9:22:05 AM#121

1-Where is Blizzard mistake?

2- DAoC is considered as best pvp game !!!!?? According to numbers of players i would say maybe mediocre game

3-Most people=Minority  or rest outside of wow, right?

 

  Satcho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 33

1/28/13 9:31:07 AM#122
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

The key to good open world pvp is simple. Don't put in battlegrounds or any sort of instanced pvp. Once you do that why would anyone choose open world pvp when rewards are much easier to get in battlegrounds. 

I think it is fine ot have pvp and pve gear, just make the distinction. This was something that WoW did very well after introducing pvp gear. 

Exactly.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, Structured PvP or what ever you want to call it always detracts from the open world PvP.

Restricted zone pvp isn't open world.  It's not really different than battle grounds and such or GW2s WvW except the zone is public instead of private.  That's really the only thing that separates a zone from an instance.

What detracts from open world pvp is when pve is separated.  To have any meaningful effect and integration into the game ow pvp needs to have competition for pve resources while in a pvp environment.  This is why Lineage, not DAoC is probably the most popular pvp mmo ever.  How many people play daoc now?  How many play Lineage? Lineage still has an estimated million players and it's a 2.5d isometric mmo that's around 14 years old.

Then again Lineage was too hardcore for the west and a more on rails daoc experience will likely suit the west better.  But please stop trying to crown it as some pinnacle pvp experience.  It's not much better, if at all, than most other themepark pvp.

Absolutely -- no clue why they keep saying TESO has OWPvP, when it is restricted to a closed-off area. Hopefully ArcheAge will cater to those of us looking for actual OWPvP, unless Trion goes overboard with their westernization...

  Omnifish

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/11
Posts: 607

I'll kick your a**e so hard, you could build a swimming pool in the footprint!

1/28/13 9:39:33 AM#123
Originally posted by eric_w66

"First of we all know that this type of PvP started with DAoC, and (pre-ToA) DAoC is considered by most people as the best PvP game of all time."

Problem with this is it is a false premise. "Most" people don't consider DAOC to have been successful in PvP. One realm dominated the other two on most servers, they had to encourage people to move to lower pop sides servers with pre-leveled chars with gear, etc. That's not success.  That's patching failure.  The people who do consider DAOC to be the best PvP game of all time, look back on it with rose-tinted glasses and forget all the frustration the game gave them.

Best PvP game I've ever played was Tribes 1.0, prior to the rampant cheating/hacks.  Then, after that, Pong.

Yep we have the same thing with SWG on these forums. DAOC's pvp was a good idea but the posts in favor clearly ignore the FOTM classes and the impact that had on RvR.

As to the OP what an increbiably arrogant post to make. So you know better because you can point out faults in other games and think the developers should cherry pick bits and bobs of things you do like in oihers? 

Here's the thing even with all those elements you like the actually synergy between systems could make the entire thing fall apart, ( a large open world with 8 man group structure with roles would have enormous amounts of balance issues, amomgst other things).

I hope they don't listen to me nor you.  I hope they don't try to cater to people who are living in the past.  I hope they have some new ideas that work within whatever systems they decide to put in place.  I hope to be plesantly surprised by them.

It'd be much better longterm then listening to those who can't seem to get over their first love..

This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  rwyan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 421

1/28/13 9:52:41 AM#124

While DAoC is considered by many, as having one of the best pvp systems for a MMO, I think a large degree of it's success was that it's RvR system hadn't been attempted before.

 

Essentially, you had 3 isolated PvE experiences with joint PvP experiences.  When it first came out, it was fresh and new.  The PvE was actually very lackluster.  Considering it was based on various mythologies, it was actually fairly boring when it came to PvE - it lacked that mystery or that "hook" that made games like AC and EQ so memorable.

 

However, where it shined was its RvR warfare.  Because it really hadn't been done before, players and their communities relied on one another.  However, it once players started to get a grasp of the various intertwined mechanics that made the system - all sense of community and realm pride quickly went down hill (as players were now gaming the system as opposed to playing the game).

 

If you take each expansion for what it was, most of them were actually really nice.  Shrouded Isles drastically improved the PvE experience.  The new dungeons were actually "fun".  The new encounters were actually "fun".  The misstep here was neglecting the RvR experience and letting it stagnate.

 

With ToA, we actually got an entertaining expansion.  However, while very interesting, it introduced a PvE grind in order to compete with the big raiding MMO EQ.  As many pointed out, any competitive RvR player was now "required" to go through these grinds in order to remain competitive.  Outside of this grind; however, RvR stagnated.

 

I actually liked Catacombs and Darkness Rising.  By the time these expansions were released, the RvR experience was really just a shadow of what it was the first 2ish years the game was out.  The experiences introduced here were fun, engaging and interesting.  However, they really didn't add to the RvR experience.  But these expansions *did* keep me in a game I once loved dearly.

 

My personal opinion is that Mythic really didn't truly understand its own MMO.  Like a lot of older MMOs, it developed some feature bloat (there are what, 3-4 alternate advancement systems now?!)  Some of the older content is far surpassed by its newer content.

 

At large, MMOs are mostly "gamed".  Players "game" the systems.  As long as MMOs utilize familiar systems, they're going to be figured out and "gamed" heavily.  It's that simple.  

 

I imagine with ESO, while the 3 faction warfare will "improve" upon experiences we've seen in the past, unless they add some fresh, subtle elements - I imagine it will lose its luster within a couple years.

 

 

  sakkdaddy

Novice Member

Joined: 9/17/07
Posts: 45

1/28/13 10:15:17 AM#125

I agree with you on most points, but long duration CC is just bad game design.  Also "most people" don't know what DAoC is anymore, so I'm sure they wouldn't call it the best pvp game of all time.

 

More importantly than the issues you described though is a risk vs reward system. I am not sure if ESO will allow same-faction murdering, or teaming up with opposing factions even, but if they do then that would be great. It will need to be go along with fairly harsh penalties for dying though if you are flagged as a murderer.

  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

1/28/13 10:15:49 AM#126
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by renatodias

Disagree with you point in CC like "- low duration WoW-like crowd control system:"

 

WoW CC's are exagerated and not fun. I believe the first thing dev. have in mind is making the game fun.

But yeah , world pvp on recent mmo's are just bad or non-existence.

WoW CC isn't fun because they have diminishing returns instead of full on immunity. Getting chain stunned to death isn't fun for anyone. 

 

I realize that long duration CC might sound scary but there should be ways to get out of it (active skill like purge with a long cooldown, passive cc duration reduce, perhaps a healer demezz/cure with a cooldown) and it should give you full immunity for a short time. If it's implemented correctly it's way more fun/less annoying than short duration cc with diminishing returns, and it promotes skill instead of zerging.

One thing you didn´t mention in your original post and is kinda related to CC is  ´what happens when you die´.

I think this ties into CC because for me, I hate long (30 plus second) CCs.  I think WOW maybe has them a little short, but that is because WOW made another mistake, and that was letting CCs have too short of a cast-time (sometimes instant).  The reason WOW has evolved to such short duration ccs is because they are impossible to block or interrupt.  I think those two things go hand-in-hand.  If you want a 30sec CC, then it better come at the end of a 4 second cast that screams ´interrupt me´.

Back to the issue of death.  This is another ´killer´ in world pvp.  Simply put, death needs to be meaningful and take you out of the fight for a signficant amount of time.  I´ve played games where you actually wanted to die if it forced your opponent to use a long CD ability.  The amount of time death keeps you out of the fight needs to far surpass even the longest of CCs. I think recently, devs have just been afraid of forcing players to stare at a grey screen.

  Celcius

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 930

1/28/13 10:21:39 AM#127

Gw2 most certainly did it right, but yeah progression will be nice next month when they add it. It was a big success though. You can't really say it was a failure considering it is the most popular feature in the game and has been since launch. Considering the game's success, I would say they did pretty well. You may not like it, but it does not mean it was not done "right". 

I don't think there really is a way to do world pvp right to be fair. You either don't like small groups roaming or you don't, you like zergging or you don't, you like soloing or you don't. People's opinions vary so widely on open world pvp and that is the main reason that is the one element of pretty much every MMO that has not remained consistant.  If you like it you like it. If you don't you don't. The only games that have had truly successful world pvp are DAOC, GW2, and Planetside 2. (In terms of success) 

  TheHavok

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2416

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

1/28/13 10:34:09 AM#128

People lost in nostalgia land.  Quick!  Grandpa is posting on mmorpg.com again.  Get him back to his bed before he rages and has another stroke!

But with all joking aside: nobody can agree on the best mmorpg pvp, nobody can agree that open world pvp is better then instanced based pvp, and nobody can agree on anything ever with mmos.

I never played DAoC, but I did play Warhammer Online and SWTOR - two games which Mythic developed (the latter with Bioware).  Neither game had great or reliable gameplay mechanics.  Ability delay in SWTOR was the biggest joke I have ever seen.  Warhamer had abilitiy and global cooldown syncing issues.  Both game's mechanics were far inferior to WoW's and Guild Wars 2.  Basic gameplay mechanics, how your character moves, how he auto-attacks, how he jumps, how he reacts to terrain, how he fires a spell, how he fires his next spell, ect and then a combination of ALL those things, THEN throw in fighting other players and see how fluid it is: that is what determines a good pvp game from a bad one.

You can argue against this till you are blue in the face, but core mechanics are really what will make or break a game in pvp.

  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 382

 
OP  1/28/13 10:40:12 AM#129
Originally posted by Azrile
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by renatodias

Disagree with you point in CC like "- low duration WoW-like crowd control system:"

 

WoW CC's are exagerated and not fun. I believe the first thing dev. have in mind is making the game fun.

But yeah , world pvp on recent mmo's are just bad or non-existence.

WoW CC isn't fun because they have diminishing returns instead of full on immunity. Getting chain stunned to death isn't fun for anyone. 

 

I realize that long duration CC might sound scary but there should be ways to get out of it (active skill like purge with a long cooldown, passive cc duration reduce, perhaps a healer demezz/cure with a cooldown) and it should give you full immunity for a short time. If it's implemented correctly it's way more fun/less annoying than short duration cc with diminishing returns, and it promotes skill instead of zerging.

One thing you didn´t mention in your original post and is kinda related to CC is  ´what happens when you die´.

I think this ties into CC because for me, I hate long (30 plus second) CCs.  I think WOW maybe has them a little short, but that is because WOW made another mistake, and that was letting CCs have too short of a cast-time (sometimes instant).  The reason WOW has evolved to such short duration ccs is because they are impossible to block or interrupt.  I think those two things go hand-in-hand.  If you want a 30sec CC, then it better come at the end of a 4 second cast that screams ´interrupt me´.

Back to the issue of death.  This is another ´killer´ in world pvp.  Simply put, death needs to be meaningful and take you out of the fight for a signficant amount of time.  I´ve played games where you actually wanted to die if it forced your opponent to use a long CD ability.  The amount of time death keeps you out of the fight needs to far surpass even the longest of CCs. I think recently, devs have just been afraid of forcing players to stare at a grey screen.

Nice post. I agree with the cast times. It also applies to damage spells. For example the PBAOE in daoc felt so "meaty" and powerful/fun because it had a ~2sec cast time and NO cooldown and huge damage (if you ever played enchanter or eldritch you know what I'm talking about). A skilled player could avoid it / interrupt it though and that made it even better when it landed. On the other hand the pbaoe in WoW (mage) felt weak / cheap / no fun because it was insta + had global cooldown + low damage.

 

Now about death waiting time I don't agree. I think giving your enemies rps (feeding them), everyone in the area seeing your death spam in the chat and the time lost to rebuff / walk back to the battle is punishment enough. I hated waiting 5-10 min on pad for Visur after every death (and you know someone in the group always forgot their amulet and you had to wait another 10 min).

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/28/13 10:53:08 AM#130
Havock
Mythic didn't really work on swtor. The only "mythic" people at eaware are marketing drone types that joined during the ea take over like gabe amangetello, or the likes of Jeff hickman, a csr who knew how to kiss corporate butt and ended up running war.

All the real mythic people have long left, there's more of them working at arenanet and zenimax than there are at eaware.

Also I disagree on your assement of warhammer. While it ain't as good as daoc it has massively better pvp mechanics than wow. Wow Is after all primarily a raid grinder, with a minimal pvp game they tacked on at a later day for pveers to do for a bit of casual fun between raids.
  ButeoRegalis

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/02/10
Posts: 381

1/28/13 12:17:18 PM#131

Just a few thoughts, only about GW2 as that's the only thing I have played on your list -

=============

GW2 WvW's mistakes:

- No progression (they promised to add it recently)

>> No progression in power is great as it focuses on skill, not who can grind the most. ANet made a small boo-boo with the ascended gear here, but they are makingthis easier to get soon, so everyone will be at the same power level again. Progression can be had through cosmetics, e.g. legendaries, dungeon armor, dyes.

- Main objective is taking keeps, not killing enemies. This led to one and only one playstyle: Zerging. Also this led to the losing servers getting discouraged / giving up easily.

>> Ok, first off: wrong. On so many levels. Taking keeps gives you personal rewards, like XP, gold, karma. Holding keeps is what gets your server points which is what you need to win the match. It's like playing football and just blindly throwing the ball forward. It's like going after the assassin medal in TOR's huttball. It completely misses the point of the game. And if you have never defended a keep against a larger force and felt the glee at denying them victory I just feel so sad for you.

- culling (awaiting fix)

>> Yea, culling blows and everyone hopes they will get this fixed soon. At least it's playable (IMO, and others', judging by the queues to get into WvW) and they didn't have to pull the whole zone *cough* like Ilum *cough*.

- poor performance compared to the PvE zones

>> You get some lag fests for sure. If you think PvE is free of this go visit any of the dragon events.

- Relics kept getting hacked so they just removed them

>> Even if the relics wouldn't have been hacked they were flawed in the design, giving the winning server even more of a power boost. Anet said they'll be back later, but really? No one misses them.

- low duration CC system favoring larger groups

>> Yea, coz if it's one thing PvP players love is to get stun-locked for minutes on end. I totally do not see this as an issue. CC is used as a setup to kill individual players, not to "even the numbers" between a large zerg and a small group.

- No trinity means no healers which is favoring larger groups

>> Not sure how much trinity works in PvP. I mean, is everybody jumping on the tanks in PvP, too, while DPS stabs them in the back? No healers means you are by and large responsible for your own a$$. If you have no idea how to stay alive without your pocket healer you need to re-L2P in GW2, or you'll keep dying. A lot.

- 5 man groups (way too small for open world pvp)

>> Not sure what the group size has to do with anything. In GW2 it's more about squads, which can be much larger than 5. 5 man groups are more a thing for PvE dungeons.

- The downed mechanic favoring larger groups

>> Totally disagree with this. Larger and unskilled groups are more likely to get a member of a smaller group downed, but rezzing and rallying works great to keep smaller skilled groups going. Unskilled players don't go for rallies, they ignore downed players to focus on getting their kill, or they try to rez defeated players, which takes ages compared to rezzing a downed one. Obviously, if both groups are equally skilled, the larger one wins.

- siege way too effective against players

>> I don't think siege is "way too effective" at all. Arrow carts do moderate damage in an aera over a short time, but you can survive it for a while, or get out of it. Ballista will hurt you, but over longer ranges they will miss if you just keep moving. Siege is also stationary, an AOE magnet and meant mostly for defending structures. It allows small groups to defend a tower against a zerg. I think you'd have called this "favoring smaller groups". Siege in open field can help turn a battle fast, but siege is also very vulnerable to getting rushed, or destroyed before it's even built.

- siege can be bought with RL money

>> No. Wrong. Do you even play GW2? Siege >>blue prints<< can be bought with RL money. You still need supply and people to actually build siege and then man and defend it afterwards. If you have none of that your pretty blueprint isn't worth the bag slot it's stored in.

- names of enemies not visible, enemies changing every 2 weeks = impossible to build rivalries (one of the things that made DAoC so awesome)

>> If you read any of the forums and are part of a WvW community there is plenty of rivalry going on between servers and their guilds. Customization through armor and choice of weapons (eg legendaries) also makes player characters very recognizable. If you have a very visible legendary, like a great sword or staff, I hope you know how to play, or you will eat dirt a lot, because everyone and their mother will try to kill you, I mean: test you skills to see if you earned the legendary or bought it with your credit card.

- easy to transfer to the winning server

>> Yes, this used to be a huge pain in the rear. They just turned that off, though. Now, you pay (RL money or a fair amount  of gold) for transfers, and you pay more to go to a high pop server.

- all 3 enemy realms are essentially the same realm (same classes/races)

>> True. It has something to do with balance. But I like that I can chose to play a high DPS character without being locked into playing for the green skins or the dudes with pointy ears, because they do DPS the best.

- no DF-like dungeon to fight for 

>> I haven't played that, so I don't know what DF-like dungeons get you in open world PvP.

 

================

So what is the key of creating a great open world PvP?

1) permanent progression which is only achieved through open world PvP kills (primary objective) and taking keeps (secondary objective, much slower than kills). Progression should be endless or extremely hard to reach the max rank. It should be interesting: not +1 str per rank etc, give us PvP-only skills that can't be unlocked with PvE.

>> ... and create a nice, high barrier to entry for new PvP players. I'd seriously hate that. It'd be the same as gear progression, aka gear treadmill. The more you grind, the more power you have. No, thanks. ANet made a concious decision to get away from that.

2) A dungeon like Darkness Falls to fight over

>> In GW2, you have four maps to fight over with lots of keeps and towers, but I don't know what's behind DF, so I guess I'm not seeing the attraction.

3) The game should be optimized for large open world battles (without culling)

>> Yep.

4) Large duration crowd control system, large groups (8 players is optimal), no "downed mechanic", yes to the  trinity(healers,tanks,dps) to allow for many different playstyles (zerging, competitive group vs group, soloing, small group, stealthing etc)

>> No to stun locks, thank you very much. GW2 allows for all mentioned playstyles. Obviously, a skilled, well-led group is required for small groups or soloing.

5) Relics (that don't get hacked easily) to fight over 

>> Honestly, no one is missing them in GW2 after they were removed. Everybody is too busy fighting over keeps and castles to notice.

6) Names of enemies visible, same enemies all the time (to build rivalries and realm pride, and to make the whole war feel important)

>>  You get "realm" and "guild" pride by having your server and guild names displayed. If you feel the need so badly to be recognized personally >>by your enemies<<, grab a unique armor set and recognizable legendary >>>and play well<<<. Your own guild and server will know how well you play anyway. I'm happy enough to have a message from the opposing server relayed to me through my GM about how they are seriously getting PO'd at me for contesting their keep's waypoint by myself for three hours. We shared a hearty laugh on TS3.

7) Make defending keeps much more rewarding than trading them with your enemies.

>> I think I asked this before: have you played any WvW on a higher tier server? No one, absolutely no one trades keep with their enemies. We may let them take a tower (worth 10 points) to take their keep (worth 20 points and much, much more defensible) in the mean time, but we don't just hand them the keys.

8) DON'T force us to PvE (much) to be able to compete in PvP.

>> Except for the recent ascended gear snafu you can level to max in WvW in GW2 and work your way to max gear. Now, to get the prettiest gear you need to PvE. If you want to call that forcing you to PvE, ok.

9) The skill system should allow skilled players to overpower zergs of lesser skilled players. If twitch.tv existed back in 2002, DAoC would be the most watched game by far. It was insanely competitive. But if the skill cap is as low as WoW's/GW2's it will never happen.

>> Ok, now I'm sure. You have not played GW2 WvW. At all. Smaller, skilled groups routinely crush mindless zergs. "Crush" here means that the zerg's morale is broken, about 50% of the zerg will run away and the other half will be killed. And this is not just when the zerg breaks on a good tower defense, this is in open field battles. Lots of examples of this on youtube.

========

It's ok to make a wish list for what you would like to see in a open world PvP game. It's somewhat ok to make "most players would agree" assumptions about what should be in the game, though expect to get some challenges here. It's not at all ok to throw out assumptions and guesses as facts when you have no clue what you are talking about. Expect to get called out here, and badly so.

  Insane666

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/08
Posts: 66

1/28/13 12:20:55 PM#132
Originally posted by boxsnd

 low duration WoW-like crowd control system

ill just quote some1 from a dif thread on a simillar topic not so long ago on theese forums,,,

"sigh, the long lost art of crowd control"

 

 

my very favorite proffession of all mmorpgs ever, is Anarchy Online's Bureaucrat: it was the ultimate CC master proffession, basicly your toolset was:

- huge evade skills ( both passive skill ammount and active "perks" that gave short lasting bonuses on top of that )

- extraordinary CC skills unmatched by any other profession out of the two dozens mmo's i played so far ( ultimate CC "spells" ((since AO's story is taking place allmost 30k years into the future, humankind was able to create "magic", wich is in fact nano technology)), both single target and AOE, both "roots" ( glues you target to a point on ground ) and "snares" ( slowing your enemy down, in some cases debuffing into negative ammounts was possible ), single target/aoe de-snares and de-root nanos(spells)

- pet(s) - depending on lvl one or two offensive pets, alltho middle lvl pvp crats, like mine could just not bother with the ninjabot, it was utterly gimp for title level 5

- allmost NO heals whatsoever, besides healing stims/kits, and one generic perk avaible to every1, and few tricks not usable to every build, like unequipping your weap to use a martial artist heal skill, or switching to meele for dimach etc,,,

 

no other feeling like standing infront of big bad enemy guy, letting him swing and miss you at will, dancing and showing off that he cant move you hp bar down, even tho you have no heals, or keeping a whole zerg at bay, just behind the corner, all rooted, while you rip them apart one by one, using LoS as you ally

 

 

aaaaaahhhhhh teh nostalgia, give me a mmo with an old school CC class ASAP, the new school low dura CC shit is boring as hell,,, and evades that matter!!

Games previously played: AO, AoC, Aion, AoW, Eve, SWTor, WaR, STO, TSW, DCUO, FE, BP, ProjectEntropia, FootballSuperstars!

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

1/28/13 12:35:27 PM#133
Originally posted by rwyan

While DAoC is considered by many, as having one of the best pvp systems for a MMO, I think a large degree of it's success was that it's RvR system hadn't been attempted before. 

Essentially, you had 3 isolated PvE experiences with joint PvP experiences.  When it first came out, it was fresh and new.  The PvE was actually very lackluster.  Considering it was based on various mythologies, it was actually fairly boring when it came to PvE - it lacked that mystery or that "hook" that made games like AC and EQ so memorable. 

However, where it shined was its RvR warfare.  Because it really hadn't been done before, players and their communities relied on one another.  However, it once players started to get a grasp of the various intertwined mechanics that made the system - all sense of community and realm pride quickly went down hill (as players were now gaming the system as opposed to playing the game). 

If you take each expansion for what it was, most of them were actually really nice.  Shrouded Isles drastically improved the PvE experience.  The new dungeons were actually "fun".  The new encounters were actually "fun".  The misstep here was neglecting the RvR experience and letting it stagnate. 

With ToA, we actually got an entertaining expansion.  However, while very interesting, it introduced a PvE grind in order to compete with the big raiding MMO EQ.  As many pointed out, any competitive RvR player was now "required" to go through these grinds in order to remain competitive.  Outside of this grind; however, RvR stagnated. 

I actually liked Catacombs and Darkness Rising.  By the time these expansions were released, the RvR experience was really just a shadow of what it was the first 2ish years the game was out.  The experiences introduced here were fun, engaging and interesting.  However, they really didn't add to the RvR experience.  But these expansions *did* keep me in a game I once loved dearly.  

My personal opinion is that Mythic really didn't truly understand its own MMO.  Like a lot of older MMOs, it developed some feature bloat (there are what, 3-4 alternate advancement systems now?!)  Some of the older content is far surpassed by its newer content.  

At large, MMOs are mostly "gamed".  Players "game" the systems.  As long as MMOs utilize familiar systems, they're going to be figured out and "gamed" heavily.  It's that simple.   

I imagine with ESO, while the 3 faction warfare will "improve" upon experiences we've seen in the past, unless they add some fresh, subtle elements - I imagine it will lose its luster within a couple years. 

 

Good post. The para I put in italics especially. DAoC changed a lot during the years. In particular, RvR changed a lot from the first couple years to what came after. Early in the game, RvR was a true realm-wide experience. You took pride in defending keeps, and when artifacts were threatened, many people who seldom RvR'd came out to defend, including many sub-50s. 

But after a year or so that started changing, and not long after (after SI but before ToA) I could see big change already. It became more of an 8v8 game. Hardcore players developed elite groups, and they wanted little part of the 'zerg', just the opposite, they wanted 8v8 action. I remember when the most hardcore guild on Albion Nimue refused to come out and help defend keeps during an artifact defense because they didnt want to risk getting zerged. And they certainly wouldnt come out if they couldnt put together a near-ideal group. Another time they did come out, but they wouldnt help defend the artifact, they wanted to kill stragglers in the rear areas to get easy realm points. It was pretty sad. Their desire for realm points meant far more to them than defending the realm with their realm-mates. Things like that just increased the growing gap between hardcore players and more casual players, and when ToA turned the game into a hardcore grindfest, well that was the icing on the cake.

Mythic I think realized they were losing many players, but were afraid to alienate the hardcore players. For example, they allowed buffbots to provide buffs outside their group with no range limit (which meant an 8 man group didnt need to waste a slot on a buffer, they got those at the portal keep). That was purely because they didnt want to lose the money from duplicate accounts. But of course it just made the gap bigger between hardcore types with two accounts and more casual types, and was one more reason for casual players to leave.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  nilden

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 886

1/28/13 1:08:48 PM#134
Originally posted by vmoped

I agree with most of the points the OP stated, but to me the best open world pvp MMO I have played was shadowbane.  Beyone the bugs and exploits it handled permanancy and CC better than any of the "pvp" mmo's I have played since.  For CC balance each CC you placed on someone also applied a longer duration immunity buff to the cc to prevent/reduce stunlocking/rootlocking/etc...  Allowing players to own/build/destroy cities was amazing.  Group formations that allowed the group leader to move for you added a structured element that mimiced battles of the past (iron age to US civil war tactics).

It blows my mind how many developers and players seem to have forgotten or ignored the innovations in open world pvp that Shadowbane employed over its lifespan.  Just my two cents here.

Cheers!

If your going to do open world pvp guilds should be able to create factions and pick the emblem/flag and declare war/peace all while being able to build and destroy cities. Shadowbane and EVE with corporations did this right.

How to post links. Check it Archeage
LoveMinecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  ragz45

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 481

1/28/13 1:15:34 PM#135
Originally posted by boxsnd

6) Names of enemies visible, same enemies all the time (to build rivalries and realm pride, and to make the whole war feel important)

Agree with everything you have posted accept for this.  DAOC never displayed the names of enemies, and I don't want to see it in ESO.  There is no need for it.  Once someone has destroyed you in pvp you can look into your log and see who killed you, but outright searching out people in combat via their name isn't needed.

I also don't know if this type of PvP could really be considered open world PvP.  Open world insinuates that PvP can happen anywhere at any time.  Where as the PvP in DAOC and ESO is more RvR style, or a gigantic battleground.  Not really open world pvp.

  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 382

 
OP  1/28/13 1:20:05 PM#136
Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

Just a few thoughts, only about GW2 as that's the only thing I have played on your list -

=============

GW2 WvW's mistakes:

- No progression (they promised to add it recently)

>> No progression in power is great as it focuses on skill, not who can grind the most. ANet made a small boo-boo with the ascended gear here, but they are makingthis easier to get soon, so everyone will be at the same power level again. Progression can be had through cosmetics, e.g. legendaries, dungeon armor, dyes.

- Main objective is taking keeps, not killing enemies. This led to one and only one playstyle: Zerging. Also this led to the losing servers getting discouraged / giving up easily.

>> Ok, first off: wrong. On so many levels. Taking keeps gives you personal rewards, like XP, gold, karma. Holding keeps is what gets your server points which is what you need to win the match. It's like playing football and just blindly throwing the ball forward. It's like going after the assassin medal in TOR's huttball. It completely misses the point of the game. And if you have never defended a keep against a larger force and felt the glee at denying them victory I just feel so sad for you.

- culling (awaiting fix)

>> Yea, culling blows and everyone hopes they will get this fixed soon. At least it's playable (IMO, and others', judging by the queues to get into WvW) and they didn't have to pull the whole zone *cough* like Ilum *cough*.

- poor performance compared to the PvE zones

>> You get some lag fests for sure. If you think PvE is free of this go visit any of the dragon events.

- Relics kept getting hacked so they just removed them

>> Even if the relics wouldn't have been hacked they were flawed in the design, giving the winning server even more of a power boost. Anet said they'll be back later, but really? No one misses them.

- low duration CC system favoring larger groups

>> Yea, coz if it's one thing PvP players love is to get stun-locked for minutes on end. I totally do not see this as an issue. CC is used as a setup to kill individual players, not to "even the numbers" between a large zerg and a small group.

- No trinity means no healers which is favoring larger groups

>> Not sure how much trinity works in PvP. I mean, is everybody jumping on the tanks in PvP, too, while DPS stabs them in the back? No healers means you are by and large responsible for your own a$$. If you have no idea how to stay alive without your pocket healer you need to re-L2P in GW2, or you'll keep dying. A lot.

- 5 man groups (way too small for open world pvp)

>> Not sure what the group size has to do with anything. In GW2 it's more about squads, which can be much larger than 5. 5 man groups are more a thing for PvE dungeons.

- The downed mechanic favoring larger groups

>> Totally disagree with this. Larger and unskilled groups are more likely to get a member of a smaller group downed, but rezzing and rallying works great to keep smaller skilled groups going. Unskilled players don't go for rallies, they ignore downed players to focus on getting their kill, or they try to rez defeated players, which takes ages compared to rezzing a downed one. Obviously, if both groups are equally skilled, the larger one wins.

- siege way too effective against players

>> I don't think siege is "way too effective" at all. Arrow carts do moderate damage in an aera over a short time, but you can survive it for a while, or get out of it. Ballista will hurt you, but over longer ranges they will miss if you just keep moving. Siege is also stationary, an AOE magnet and meant mostly for defending structures. It allows small groups to defend a tower against a zerg. I think you'd have called this "favoring smaller groups". Siege in open field can help turn a battle fast, but siege is also very vulnerable to getting rushed, or destroyed before it's even built.

- siege can be bought with RL money

>> No. Wrong. Do you even play GW2? Siege >>blue prints<< can be bought with RL money. You still need supply and people to actually build siege and then man and defend it afterwards. If you have none of that your pretty blueprint isn't worth the bag slot it's stored in.

- names of enemies not visible, enemies changing every 2 weeks = impossible to build rivalries (one of the things that made DAoC so awesome)

>> If you read any of the forums and are part of a WvW community there is plenty of rivalry going on between servers and their guilds. Customization through armor and choice of weapons (eg legendaries) also makes player characters very recognizable. If you have a very visible legendary, like a great sword or staff, I hope you know how to play, or you will eat dirt a lot, because everyone and their mother will try to kill you, I mean: test you skills to see if you earned the legendary or bought it with your credit card.

- easy to transfer to the winning server

>> Yes, this used to be a huge pain in the rear. They just turned that off, though. Now, you pay (RL money or a fair amount  of gold) for transfers, and you pay more to go to a high pop server.

- all 3 enemy realms are essentially the same realm (same classes/races)

>> True. It has something to do with balance. But I like that I can chose to play a high DPS character without being locked into playing for the green skins or the dudes with pointy ears, because they do DPS the best.

- no DF-like dungeon to fight for 

>> I haven't played that, so I don't know what DF-like dungeons get you in open world PvP.

 

================

So what is the key of creating a great open world PvP?

1) permanent progression which is only achieved through open world PvP kills (primary objective) and taking keeps (secondary objective, much slower than kills). Progression should be endless or extremely hard to reach the max rank. It should be interesting: not +1 str per rank etc, give us PvP-only skills that can't be unlocked with PvE.

>> ... and create a nice, high barrier to entry for new PvP players. I'd seriously hate that. It'd be the same as gear progression, aka gear treadmill. The more you grind, the more power you have. No, thanks. ANet made a concious decision to get away from that.

2) A dungeon like Darkness Falls to fight over

>> In GW2, you have four maps to fight over with lots of keeps and towers, but I don't know what's behind DF, so I guess I'm not seeing the attraction.

3) The game should be optimized for large open world battles (without culling)

>> Yep.

4) Large duration crowd control system, large groups (8 players is optimal), no "downed mechanic", yes to the  trinity(healers,tanks,dps) to allow for many different playstyles (zerging, competitive group vs group, soloing, small group, stealthing etc)

>> No to stun locks, thank you very much. GW2 allows for all mentioned playstyles. Obviously, a skilled, well-led group is required for small groups or soloing.

5) Relics (that don't get hacked easily) to fight over 

>> Honestly, no one is missing them in GW2 after they were removed. Everybody is too busy fighting over keeps and castles to notice.

6) Names of enemies visible, same enemies all the time (to build rivalries and realm pride, and to make the whole war feel important)

>>  You get "realm" and "guild" pride by having your server and guild names displayed. If you feel the need so badly to be recognized personally >>by your enemies<<, grab a unique armor set and recognizable legendary >>>and play well<<<. Your own guild and server will know how well you play anyway. I'm happy enough to have a message from the opposing server relayed to me through my GM about how they are seriously getting PO'd at me for contesting their keep's waypoint by myself for three hours. We shared a hearty laugh on TS3.

7) Make defending keeps much more rewarding than trading them with your enemies.

>> I think I asked this before: have you played any WvW on a higher tier server? No one, absolutely no one trades keep with their enemies. We may let them take a tower (worth 10 points) to take their keep (worth 20 points and much, much more defensible) in the mean time, but we don't just hand them the keys.

8) DON'T force us to PvE (much) to be able to compete in PvP.

>> Except for the recent ascended gear snafu you can level to max in WvW in GW2 and work your way to max gear. Now, to get the prettiest gear you need to PvE. If you want to call that forcing you to PvE, ok.

9) The skill system should allow skilled players to overpower zergs of lesser skilled players. If twitch.tv existed back in 2002, DAoC would be the most watched game by far. It was insanely competitive. But if the skill cap is as low as WoW's/GW2's it will never happen.

>> Ok, now I'm sure. You have not played GW2 WvW. At all. Smaller, skilled groups routinely crush mindless zergs. "Crush" here means that the zerg's morale is broken, about 50% of the zerg will run away and the other half will be killed. And this is not just when the zerg breaks on a good tower defense, this is in open field battles. Lots of examples of this on youtube.

========

It's ok to make a wish list for what you would like to see in a open world PvP game. It's somewhat ok to make "most players would agree" assumptions about what should be in the game, though expect to get some challenges here. It's not at all ok to throw out assumptions and guesses as facts when you have no clue what you are talking about. Expect to get called out here, and badly so.

I see the GW2 defense force has finally arrived. 

Just to make something clear though: Long duration CC (at least as it was in DAoC) didn't have any stunlocks. You could get stunned once (for up to 9 sec depending on skill) and then you had full immunity for 1 minute to stun. You could also use your purge to get out of the stun and essentially spend the 1st minute of the fight without getting stunned at all. In GW2/WoW though you can get stun locked. for example the wow rogue can stun you 3 times, gouge you 3 times, sap you, blind you 2 times etc. The gw2 thief can annoy you with his unlimited vanishes etc. In other words long duration CC is far less frustrating/annoying than low duration cc.

 

It's funny how you started defending GW2 when I talked about its mistakes and you KEPT defending it when I was suggesting thinkgs for ESO. How do you feel about Anet adding progression to WvW though (they promised it about a week ago)?

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 382

 
OP  1/28/13 1:23:18 PM#137
Originally posted by ragz45
Originally posted by boxsnd

6) Names of enemies visible, same enemies all the time (to build rivalries and realm pride, and to make the whole war feel important)

Agree with everything you have posted accept for this.  DAOC never displayed the names of enemies, and I don't want to see it in ESO.  There is no need for it.  Once someone has destroyed you in pvp you can look into your log and see who killed you, but outright searching out people in combat via their name isn't needed.

I also don't know if this type of PvP could really be considered open world PvP.  Open world insinuates that PvP can happen anywhere at any time.  Where as the PvP in DAOC and ESO is more RvR style, or a gigantic battleground.  Not really open world pvp.

You could see your enemy's name if you clicked on him with your mouse. Baddie detected :)

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/28/13 1:48:31 PM#138
If I can't see enemy names I wont be playing long term

IT IS THAT IMPORTANT
  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

1/28/13 2:00:25 PM#139
Originally posted by ShakyMo
If I can't see enemy names I wont be playing long term

IT IS THAT IMPORTANT

Agreed, seing an oposing player that you have biilt a rivalry is pretty awsome, even better when its a rival guild

  AutemOx

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1719

1/28/13 2:00:48 PM#140
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Crunchy
No the wow style of pvp is dull and boring

The daoc style done right e.g planetside 1 is lots of fun.
The daoc style done semi right e.g war, gw2, planetside 2 is also a damn site more fun than arena e"sport" bollox.

I don't consider likes if lwg in wow, fusang in tsw or ilum in swtor to be daoc style. They are half arsed tacked on pvp for a momentary distraction while you're not doing raiding.

THIS!

Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

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