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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

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238 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 8:29:36 PM#221
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many MMORPGs are already like CORPG .. why do you think i am sticking around here?

And tell me, in WOW, is the world a major part of the game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

When DDO first launched, one of the major complaints were due to the fact that it felt trapped and that there was no expansive persistent world.  It failed to become more than it is now.

As for WoW, I do think the world is still a major part.  Sure there are lots who avoid it completely by just running dungeons, battlegrounds and raids but there's also lots who enjoy questing from zone to zone, exploring and randomly meeting others.

I do agree that right now, MMOs seem like lobby games.  But I see this genre go in cycles.  Perhaps that's what people want now but eventually you'll hit critical mass and people will start demanding something different.  And then the cycle repeats and we'll have more open worlds.  The same goes for theme parks and sandboxes.  Right now we are in the age of lobby/theme park MMOs but I suspect gamers will grow weary of it and will want something different.

Sure ... but no one says the "different" thing has to be virtual world games. It can be different settings. Different gameplay (how about putting stealth in MMOs?).

And not everything is in cycle. Do you see text adventure making a come-back?

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

1/27/13 8:40:55 PM#222
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Sure ... but no one says the "different" thing has to be virtual world games. It can be different settings. Different gameplay (how about putting stealth in MMOs?).

And not everything is in cycle. Do you see text adventure making a come-back?

Sure different can be something else but I find it interesting that you feel the need to exclude virtual worlds from "different".  Theme park settings will change, heck we see it now.  We once only had fantasy settings but now we have all sorts of settings but gamers are becoming more experienced and in the end they will be able to identify the system behind the setting.  You can put a fantasy, sci-fi or horror skin on a theme park but they will generally play the same and gamers will recognize it.  That's why I believe the game design will change.

Text adventure?  Really?  Apples and oranges.  You're talking about text vs. graphics which are technologically different.

  sunshadow21

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

1/27/13 8:51:20 PM#223
Originally posted by nariusseldon

There is certainly a market for such MMOs. Otherwise, why would GW1 be so successful?

And what cookie cutter copycats? Last time i look, we have a star trek MMO, a DC universe MMO, an upcoming Marvel MMO, a open world pvp MMO (PS2), a WW2 tank battle MMO (WOT), .....

SO variety is alive and well.

In settings, there is, and always has been a wide variety; in mechancs, not so much. The biggest difference from when EQ was king and the time since WoW has taken the throne is that back then, each game was genuinely different from each other. There may have been some common mechanics and social systems, but there was no default must haves. Now, amongst the big names at least, that vareity is all but gone, with very few ouliers managing to gain much success. It's only been in the last month or so that I've seen significant talk and coverage about a lot of games and mechanics  that don't easily fit the WoW mold (there's always been one or two, but rarely enough to spark general conversations).

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/27/13 8:55:44 PM#224
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by nariusseldonthe game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

Sure ... but no one says the "different" thing has to be virtual world games. It can be different settings. Different gameplay (how about putting stealth in MMOs?).

And not everything is in cycle. Do you see text adventure making a come-back?

Text adventuring won't make a comeback..ever...for many reasons. But I bet the main reason is no one would take the time to actually read. ;)

  MurlockDance

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1192

1/28/13 3:15:00 AM#225
Originally posted by nariusseldon

So how about not use any definition.

Let's use examples.

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in WOW?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DCUO?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DDO?

....

Now there is no confusion. And you ask "How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?" ... it is not like "immersed in the world" is the only reason to play a game, is it?

 

How about you play your lobby games since you like them and I play my open world MMORPGs since I like them ? Lets not change one genre into something else.

You are strange, you want less choice for everyone. I want more choice.

You are making a red herring argument anyway.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  sunshadow21

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

1/28/13 3:26:53 AM#226
Originally posted by SpectralHunter

When DDO first launched, one of the major complaints were due to the fact that it felt trapped and that there was no expansive persistent world.  It failed to become more than it is now.

I think it's important to understand that while DDO, and most games people have put with it, have had that major complaint, that by itself did not sink the game; there were a lot of other equally large or more important complaints that have doomed most such efforts. I tried DDO, and frankly found the lack of an open world the least of it's problems; it was noticeable, but hardly the final straw that made me not want to play it.

I think that if someone were to execute the rest of the game well enough, and I do appreciate that is a very big if, even if the open world would be missed, the game would still likely be a success. Whether you could call such a game an MMO is another question entirely, but we've already seen one major example where it worked, GW, and a fair number of people are obviously willing to classify that game as an MMO of sorts. It's not a game that I would play, but if it would help loosen up the definition sufficiently to convince publishers and developers that being different is not a financial kiss of death, I'd be wishing all the luck I could throw at it.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/28/13 12:52:06 PM#227
Originally posted by MurlockDance
Originally posted by nariusseldon

So how about not use any definition.

Let's use examples.

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in WOW?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DCUO?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DDO?

....

Now there is no confusion. And you ask "How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?" ... it is not like "immersed in the world" is the only reason to play a game, is it?

 

How about you play your lobby games since you like them and I play my open world MMORPGs since I like them ? Lets not change one genre into something else.

You are strange, you want less choice for everyone. I want more choice.

You are making a red herring argument anyway.

Sure .. go ahead. I will play the lobby MMO. No problem. And i never said open world MMO like PS2 should change. But don't you agree some MMOs are going down to the path of lobby co-op games.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/28/13 12:56:26 PM#228
Originally posted by sunshadow21

I think that if someone were to execute the rest of the game well enough, and I do appreciate that is a very big if, even if the open world would be missed, the game would still likely be a success. Whether you could call such a game an MMO is another question entirely, but we've already seen one major example where it worked, GW, and a fair number of people are obviously willing to classify that game as an MMO of sorts. It's not a game that I would play, but if it would help loosen up the definition sufficiently to convince publishers and developers that being different is not a financial kiss of death, I'd be wishing all the luck I could throw at it.

The classficiation is just a red herring that people here throw all the time. Whether game X is a MMO or not, as long as it is listed here with a forum, is fair game for discussion.

And reasonably people would agree that playing a diablo 3 dungeon, is not so different from playing a WOW one (in the sense that you click a button and go into a 4/5-man instance). In fact, the reason why some non-MMOs are supported here is because they share a large overlap in audience with MMOs.

And if you look at DDO, it is certainly a legimate game design to focus on small dungeon adventures. It is not clear that it would be a better game if it is made into a true MMO. Isn't the new Neverwinter night following the same approach?

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

1/28/13 6:35:42 PM#229
Originally posted by nariusseldon

The classficiation is just a red herring that people here throw all the time. Whether game X is a MMO or not, as long as it is listed here with a forum, is fair game for discussion.

And reasonably people would agree that playing a diablo 3 dungeon, is not so different from playing a WOW one (in the sense that you click a button and go into a 4/5-man instance). In fact, the reason why some non-MMOs are supported here is because they share a large overlap in audience with MMOs.

And if you look at DDO, it is certainly a legimate game design to focus on small dungeon adventures. It is not clear that it would be a better game if it is made into a true MMO. Isn't the new Neverwinter night following the same approach?

I agree that calling a game a MMO or not is not that important a topic.  But in general, historically, MMOs had wide open persistent zones with content (not just lobbies).

Actually Neverwinter will have persistent areas.  Cryptic wanted to go the DDO route but PWE changed it.

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

1/28/13 7:49:59 PM#230
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Take WOW as an example. What are the pve gameplay? Solo-quest, 5-man instanced dungeons and raids. In between dungeons, players waited in a city.

So what if there is no virtual world? Just a city lobby. Will they even notice the difference?

You may say .. what about meeting other players when you solo quest? Well, that also don't need a persistent virtual world. You can use an instanced and match random players into it. You will never be seeing 10000 others outside of a city anyway. In fact, most questing players won't want 10000 others to share their quest mobs.

In DDO, most of the gameplay is in the dungeons. There isn't much of even the open world solo-questing like in WOW.

LOTRO is similar to WOW.

In STO, most mission/pve content is in instanced. I do see lots of other players (space ships) in sector space. However, i doubt i would even notice if the sector space is not persistent, or if some of the space ships are NPCs (in fact, some of them are).

In fact, didn't GW1 tried this idea and was very successful. 

 

 

I think you're missing the e in pve... what you're describing is more of a pvd or imo just a fighter style game with a few bells and whistles to entertain people while they're waiting for their turn to try and become the biggest baddest on the block. 

 

What some of us want is the virtual type world(environment) that we can roleplay in(be it a fisher, crafter, explorer, hero or a-hat) that we were given in UO and other like-minded games.  We don't want to just rush through and "win" the game, we want to be able to "live" and play in it and yes some will want to be the "leader" of their pack in it too though that doesn't preclude wanting a world that you can be part of and make a name for yourself in.  In  fact, even though DE's can be fun and all, we don't all want our environments to change to the point that we can never go back and replay them on alts or introduce friends to the world we fell in love with.  Cata in WoW may have been great fun for some but for others, like me, it just killed a large part of the world that was what made me play the game.  Compare it if you will to Trammel in UO.

 

The only game on the horizon that looks promising in those respects for me is ArcheAge, and even that doesn't quite fit the bill with it's bikini parties and such.  I don't know why games lately have moved so far from the old medieval settings, I guess some people can't seem to marry the idea of teleportation without nuclear weapons, I find good old magic more fun.

  MurlockDance

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1192

1/29/13 4:39:21 AM#231
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Sure .. go ahead. I will play the lobby MMO. No problem. And i never said open world MMO like PS2 should change. But don't you agree some MMOs are going down to the path of lobby co-op games.

Are you talking about MMORPGs or MMOGs in general ?

If we are talking about MMORPGs, I do not agree. People can choose to play how they want to, but it is clear to me the devs still support overworld zones.

I mean just look at MoP : most of the content released is still based in the main world zones. Same with Cataclysm, they revamped Azeroth and added to it, and only released a small number of dungeons during the downtime between its release and MoP's.

If the world zones are lacking players, it is partly because WoW is losing steam overall. I have noticed a few signs since MoP's release that people aren't playing as heavily as they have been in the past.

Older games tend to have more people doing high end content which unfortunately seems to be a lot of dungeon instances. There are still many players kicking about the MoP areas at max level though, and I see a lot of people doing crafts, harvesting, getting achievements out in the world, so obviously they are not all queued up all the time waiting in Ogrimmar or whatever.

In fact, if anything, it seems like real MMORPG devs are going in the opposite direction and giving us more world : ArcheAge, the Repopulation, just to name two in development, and in the case of games released already, Minecraft, Rift, and GW2 for recent releases.

I am no way saying that open MMORPGs are more popular than MMOGs with lobbies, because I do not have any data to back that up, and since I am not attracted to them, I do not follow them. But remove the open world from MMORPGs and changing everything to MMOG status like DDO, DOTA, or something like that, hell yeah, people would notice and probably bitch once 90% of their game is suddenly removed.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/29/13 11:59:28 AM#232
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by nariusseldon

The classficiation is just a red herring that people here throw all the time. Whether game X is a MMO or not, as long as it is listed here with a forum, is fair game for discussion.

And reasonably people would agree that playing a diablo 3 dungeon, is not so different from playing a WOW one (in the sense that you click a button and go into a 4/5-man instance). In fact, the reason why some non-MMOs are supported here is because they share a large overlap in audience with MMOs.

And if you look at DDO, it is certainly a legimate game design to focus on small dungeon adventures. It is not clear that it would be a better game if it is made into a true MMO. Isn't the new Neverwinter night following the same approach?

I agree that calling a game a MMO or not is not that important a topic.  But in general, historically, MMOs had wide open persistent zones with content (not just lobbies).

Actually Neverwinter will have persistent areas.  Cryptic wanted to go the DDO route but PWE changed it.

That is the point. Historically it is so .. but it is changed now. Everything changed.

Does NWN going to have persistent large world areas? Or just some city zones like Orgrimmar. And surely they will have instanced dungeons as the main adventure gameplay, right?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/29/13 12:01:04 PM#233
Originally posted by MurlockDance

If the world zones are lacking players, it is partly because WoW is losing steam overall. I have noticed a few signs since MoP's release that people aren't playing as heavily as they have been in the past.

Then how come SW and Org are still very crowded?

Sure WOW is losing player. But the problem of empty world went all the way back to WOTLK

  MurlockDance

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1192

1/30/13 1:14:59 PM#234
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MurlockDance

If the world zones are lacking players, it is partly because WoW is losing steam overall. I have noticed a few signs since MoP's release that people aren't playing as heavily as they have been in the past.

Then how come SW and Org are still very crowded?

Sure WOW is losing player. But the problem of empty world went all the way back to WOTLK

Because these are both the main social hubs for the game ?

Guess what ? Ogrimmar has always been crowded, even before the df tool existed and before people could teleport straight to their dungeon-of-choice.

And there is no proof that everyone in Ogrimmar is waiting in some sort of queue, never leaving to go out into the large and dangerous Azeroth world. I have seen a lot of evidence that tells me that many people are not in Ogrimmar just to be in queue, after all, they could be anywhere in the world and in a queue.

They might just be in Ogrimmar because they are doing something else that is easier to do there than other places, such as : talk in one of the global chat channels, look at the AH, look at gear vendors, craft, do some dailies, organize their bank, socialize, etc.

By the way, people in SWG use to congregate in cantinas, especially the Mos Eisley one. Are you going to tell me that SWG was a lobby game too ?

Anyway, you are so convinced you are right I guess it doesn't matter what I say, so this is my last post on this thread. Good luck playing your lobby games and I will have fun playing my fully fleshed MMORPGs. *wave*

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

1/30/13 8:26:41 PM#235
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by nariusseldon

The classficiation is just a red herring that people here throw all the time. Whether game X is a MMO or not, as long as it is listed here with a forum, is fair game for discussion.

And reasonably people would agree that playing a diablo 3 dungeon, is not so different from playing a WOW one (in the sense that you click a button and go into a 4/5-man instance). In fact, the reason why some non-MMOs are supported here is because they share a large overlap in audience with MMOs.

And if you look at DDO, it is certainly a legimate game design to focus on small dungeon adventures. It is not clear that it would be a better game if it is made into a true MMO. Isn't the new Neverwinter night following the same approach?

I agree that calling a game a MMO or not is not that important a topic.  But in general, historically, MMOs had wide open persistent zones with content (not just lobbies).

Actually Neverwinter will have persistent areas.  Cryptic wanted to go the DDO route but PWE changed it.

That is the point. Historically it is so .. but it is changed now. Everything changed.

Does NWN going to have persistent large world areas? Or just some city zones like Orgrimmar. And surely they will have instanced dungeons as the main adventure gameplay, right?

Changed according to whom? You? I suppose we're at a disagreement because I still think the historical definition still stands. 

As desperately as you wish it weren't the case to support your position, Neverwinter will have persistent zones and I don't mean just sections of the city where you just stand around. In fact Cryptic called the game a co-op when they were just going to have lobby style areas. When they added the persistent zones they called it a MMO. Seems the industry agrees with my definition. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/31/13 10:27:50 AM#236
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
 

Changed according to whom? You? I suppose we're at a disagreement because I still think the historical definition still stands. 

As desperately as you wish it weren't the case to support your position, Neverwinter will have persistent zones and I don't mean just sections of the city where you just stand around. In fact Cryptic called the game a co-op when they were just going to have lobby style areas. When they added the persistent zones they called it a MMO. Seems the industry agrees with my definition. 

According to the market, of course. Didn't you see the trend. Don't tell me you don't know that the use of instances have increased dramatically, practically a must-have feature, in MMOs. And don't tell me you don't know that if you look at xfire ranking, there are a lot of instanced gaming at the top of the chart.

And i wouldn't be worried about my own preferencse. There are so many games that if NWN is not what i like, i simply move on to something else.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/31/13 10:30:10 AM#237
Originally posted by MurlockDance

And there is no proof that everyone in Ogrimmar is waiting in some sort of queue, never leaving to go out into the large and dangerous Azeroth world. I have seen a lot of evidence that tells me that many people are not in Ogrimmar just to be in queue, after all, they could be anywhere in the world and in a queue.

Fact 1: Org is crowded

Fact 2: world is mostly empty

Fact 3: lots of people are doing dungeons/raids

So tell me what people are doing in Org? Chat?

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

2/01/13 3:58:53 PM#238
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MurlockDance

And there is no proof that everyone in Ogrimmar is waiting in some sort of queue, never leaving to go out into the large and dangerous Azeroth world. I have seen a lot of evidence that tells me that many people are not in Ogrimmar just to be in queue, after all, they could be anywhere in the world and in a queue.

Fact 1: Org is crowded

Fact 2: world is mostly empty

Fact 3: lots of people are doing dungeons/raids

So tell me what people are doing in Org? Chat?

A) Respect for making world enthusiasts defent lobby gameplay and overcrowded cities which are more a symptom of lack of things to do outside than popularity, historically only trade areas were overcrowded.

B) Bout market dictating and evolving the genre, this is a debatable topic, and you know it, sure instances are a more streamlined experience, maybe even easier to do from a manhours and design standpoint, but they also have negative impacts, impacts which you are discussing, back in the day most smartphones had styluses, maybe in the future we will have gestures and stuff, since even apple touch interface does suffer from not enough information shown on the screen, which the styluses were designed to battle in the past.

Flame on!

:)

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