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286 posts found
  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 3:59:37 PM#221
Originally posted by Distopia

A question that can't be answered at present.

IF these things bother you so much, you don't have to play.

You're not going to see me standing in line for a copy.  I refuse to sign up for beta as well.

  trash656

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 378

It is easier to Fight for Principles then it is to Live up to them.

1/27/13 4:00:42 PM#222

OP,

Some people will like the games you don't, some others will like the games you do. Just as in real life someone likes icescream and someone else doesn't. Gamers in general take their taste in gaming a little to seriously a lot of which are very immature for their age. Although saying that what I get tired of hearing is all the Gamers who argue and complain what they like and dont like. It's like watching a couple of 8 year olds fight over what kind of pizza is better.

It's a pathetic and sad Generation I live in, with people that get more ignorant by the day, but it's a fact of life, and theres nothing anyone can do about it. My advice is if it bothers you that much. Simply don't read the negative posts, because then your just as bad as them, Don't be a media whore, and get sucked into all the community bs. As long as you like it thats all that matters.

 

Cheers

-Trash

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2765

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 4:01:41 PM#223
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azzamasin

And you have to buy 3 different games to explore half tamriel in the single player game.  Your points are no valid no matter how hard you want them to be! 

ESO is still open, it features the exact same exploration centric gameplay that Skyrim does, that Morrowind does, and that Oblivian does.  Having a 3 player faction system does not take away from it being open because based on the areas we get to play in the MMO its already more open (by your definition) then the single player game.

Excuss me but who are you to confined?  I have valid points because they are my own, no matter how bad you want to dismiss them.

ESO is closed off by faction.  What about the people who aren't playing the game for PvP, such as the explorers and PvE'rs, are their points invalid?  Are people who don't want to create and level a bunch of alts to see the world invalid?

Who in their right mind would think to restrict a game known for open-adventures and exploration - why would they think it best to close off the areas and choice of faction for the sake of PvP?  They could've had a 3 faction war without faction locking races and areas.

Not saying they are invalid but I am saying their concerns are un warranted since we get more PvE space then any of the single player RPG's.  I cant explore Hammerfell while I am playing Skyrim and everyone is fine with that but ohhh all hell breaks out if you cant explore Hammerfell while in the MMO.  It makes no sense to me.

 

Call me an optomist but if I was a PvE'er only and I chose to play ESO and say I pick Ebonheart Pact I now get access to Skyrim, Morrownd and Blackmarsh....way more exploration space compared to the single player game. 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1048

1/27/13 4:03:02 PM#224
I'm with you.  I see sandbox and I see pvp love fest and not an RPG game.  
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2765

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 4:05:42 PM#225
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

I started playing MMO's with Asheron's Call in November of 1999 when it released, was selected for the beta the same summer and I've been playing AC off and on now for 14+ years.  It still remains my favorite MMO of all time but that doesn't mean some of the systems it uses are outdated and would be better off if it offered some more common themepark elements like:

  • Auction Houses
  • Group Finder
  • Limited bag space inventory system instead of Encumberance system
  • removal of 20 min buffing sessions
  • plus other things
 

Ofcourse but AC, even though it is my favourite MMO of all times, is over a decade old. Turbine should have evolved it but instead went ThemePark with AC 2 and LotrO and there hasn't been a single triple A sandbox since and that is the main issue here. Devs with money and resources, not spending it on evolving the sandbox concept but rather throwing out ThemePark after ThemePark, hoping to get a piece of the 10 million sub pie of WoW.

ESO would have been an excellent candidate for a triple A sandbox MMO because everything about Skyrim screams sandbox but noooo, here comes yet another ThemePark... getting fed up with this shit.

My point was I am a vet of MMO's and my favorite game of all time is one of those old school games and I was debunking the guy I quoted saying the games were bastaerdized which obvisouly they were not.

 

Not to mention back then 100K subscribers was considered a massive succes whereas today it would be a collosal failure.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 4:05:59 PM#226
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

yeah like the houses in morrowind.  I said a simmilar thing in another thread.  I guess the problem is modern players and following the path of least resistance they fear they will all pile on one faction.  But they could say have 3 imperial houses you join, but you make that descision at character creation.

The more obvious soloution though is to copy daocs core/ffa/coop server setup.

Core servers played likethey are saying.  Separate pve area for each faction, shared faction pvp area.

FFA servers, almost entire world was PVP flagged and guilds could claim keeps in the rvr area, you could visit the entire world.  (think darkfall without player loot)

Coop servers you could travel the entire world and make guilds and groups with members of the other factions.

Yea this is what I would like to see too, co-op server and FFA server to appease those who want that.  Makes it hard to do on a mega server technology though.

I would also prefer them to ditch this mega server idea and have proper servers.  It will have all sorts of issues with cross realming.  Sure its a pain when you have queues at launch, and possibly mergers of servers later, but its a price worth paying for not having multiple instances of world zones and making the game more imersive imo.   Depends how its done to some degree, i found this sharding of world zones thing extremely annoying in aoc and swtor, but i played coh for over a year without even realising it did it too.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 4:10:26 PM#227
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

I started playing MMO's with Asheron's Call in November of 1999 when it released, was selected for the beta the same summer and I've been playing AC off and on now for 14+ years.  It still remains my favorite MMO of all time but that doesn't mean some of the systems it uses are outdated and would be better off if it offered some more common themepark elements like:

  • Auction Houses
  • Group Finder
  • Limited bag space inventory system instead of Encumberance system
  • removal of 20 min buffing sessions
  • plus other things
 

Ofcourse but AC, even though it is my favourite MMO of all times, is over a decade old. Turbine should have evolved it but instead went ThemePark with AC 2 and LotrO and there hasn't been a single triple A sandbox since and that is the main issue here. Devs with money and resources, not spending it on evolving the sandbox concept but rather throwing out ThemePark after ThemePark, hoping to get a piece of the 10 million sub pie of WoW.

ESO would have been an excellent candidate for a triple A sandbox MMO because everything about Skyrim screams sandbox but noooo, here comes yet another ThemePark... getting fed up with this shit.

you wont get a tripple A sandbox mmo, because only TWO sandboxes have been a success EVE and UO.  AC & SWG i consider more as hybrid games, like Tes itself.  Infact when I thought of what a tes mmo would be like, i thought of AC not UO.  If they are making it heavily based on DAOC though, i dont think thats a bad thing, DAOC is way closer to tes than say wow.  What i fear is they might have quite a few wow like features in there too, although they seem to be distancing themselves from wow lately with descisions like dropping instanced pvp minigames.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 4:12:04 PM#228
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by sapphen

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

yeah like the houses in morrowind.  I said a simmilar thing in another thread.  I guess the problem is modern players and following the path of least resistance they fear they will all pile on one faction.  But they could say have 3 imperial houses you join, but you make that descision at character creation.

The more obvious soloution though is to copy daocs core/ffa/coop server setup.

Core servers played likethey are saying.  Separate pve area for each faction, shared faction pvp area.

FFA servers, almost entire world was PVP flagged and guilds could claim keeps in the rvr area, you could visit the entire world.  (think darkfall without player loot)

Coop servers you could travel the entire world and make guilds and groups with members of the other factions.

I would compromise with a faction choice at character creation. I know it's impossible to rework the game at this point but fear of faction imbalance shouldn't have been problem.  IMO there are a few ways to balance this instead of taking the path of least resistance.

I would support different server choices.  Maybe not 3 but 2.  A core and then an "Real Elder Scrolls" one (lol) - faction choice at character creation, go anywhere, can manually flag for wPvP versus faction or wPvP versus everyone.

I appreciate you responding from a problem solving perspective, it gives me some hope in this thread of dispair.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2765

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 4:16:34 PM#229
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by sapphen

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

yeah like the houses in morrowind.  I said a simmilar thing in another thread.  I guess the problem is modern players and following the path of least resistance they fear they will all pile on one faction.  But they could say have 3 imperial houses you join, but you make that descision at character creation.

The more obvious soloution though is to copy daocs core/ffa/coop server setup.

Core servers played likethey are saying.  Separate pve area for each faction, shared faction pvp area.

FFA servers, almost entire world was PVP flagged and guilds could claim keeps in the rvr area, you could visit the entire world.  (think darkfall without player loot)

Coop servers you could travel the entire world and make guilds and groups with members of the other factions.

I would compromise with a faction choice at character creation. I know it's impossible to rework the game at this point but fear of faction imbalance shouldn't have been problem.  IMO there are a few ways to balance this instead of taking the path of least resistance.

I would support different server choices.  Maybe not 3 but 2.  A core and then an "Real Elder Scrolls" one (lol) - faction choice at character creation, go anywhere, can manually flag for wPvP versus faction or wPvP versus everyone.

I appreciate you responding from a problem solving perspective, it gives me some hope in this thread of dispair.

Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Distopia

A question that can't be answered at present.

IF these things bother you so much, you don't have to play.

You're not going to see me standing in line for a copy. I refuse to sign up for beta as well.

 

 

 

For someone with no intention of playing you sure do display emotions to the contrary.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 4:20:20 PM#230
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by sapphen

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

And you wouldn't have the systems in place that promote community and faction pride.  Arguably the biggest reasons why GW2 WvW is the failure it is.  I want the feeling like I had in DAoC of fighting that Elf invader or Troll Invader as opposed to invader....when the nemey is different looking and comes from different lands its more immersive and offers greater pride for defending your realm.

GW2 isn't a failure just because you didn't like it.  That has got to be a joke, you do realize that it's the 2nd most played MMO out at the moment right?  They have some work to do on their WvW systems, allowing free server transfers hurt the faction pride the most.  Races had NOTHING to do with that.

Even if it did and they want to promote faction pride then why are they forcing us to create multiple alts inorder to see the entire world?

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

1/27/13 4:20:54 PM#231
Originally posted by sapphen

Still doesn't change the fact that they faction locked races and areas to be like DAoC.  Am I supposed to be grateful that they might've gotten a few things right?  The above is all fine and good but TES is about freedom to choose your factions and explore the land.

Many of these have been done in MMOs already, what good are these systems if they didn't represent the core of TES.

You still are free to chose faction, you just do it at creation due to the races being at war with each other

You can explore more areas (fully realised) than in any other tes game ever, even with the faction lock so how is being able to explore more than before, removing the "core of TES"? Or is it the fact that races are being locked to factions? because I would say race choice is a fairly small part of what makes tes tes, and certainly not THE "core"

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 4:22:15 PM#232
Gw2 lacks rivalry, no factions is a part of that, but so Is no names and server hopping.

It's why I'm playing ps2 instead.
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2765

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 4:25:41 PM#233
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by sapphen

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

And you wouldn't have the systems in place that promote community and faction pride.  Arguably the biggest reasons why GW2 WvW is the failure it is.  I want the feeling like I had in DAoC of fighting that Elf invader or Troll Invader as opposed to invader....when the nemey is different looking and comes from different lands its more immersive and offers greater pride for defending your realm.

GW2 isn't a failure just because you didn't like it.  That has got to be a joke, you do realize that it's the 2nd most played MMO out at the moment right?  They have some work to do on their WvW systems, allowing free server transfers hurt the faction pride the most.  Races had NOTHING to do with that.

Even if it did and they want to promote faction pride then why are they forcing us to create multiple alts inorder to see the entire world?

Never said GW2 is a failure, I said WvW is a failure because it strayed to far from what made DAoC's RvR what it is.  I agree with GW2, its a great game even though I aint playing it currently but if the WvW was a tenth of what DAoC's was I would be still there.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 4:28:03 PM#234
Originally posted by azzamasin.

Not saying they are invalid but I am saying their concerns are un warranted since we get more PvE space then any of the single player RPG's.  I cant explore Hammerfell while I am playing Skyrim and everyone is fine with that but ohhh all hell breaks out if you cant explore Hammerfell while in the MMO.  It makes no sense to me.

Call me an optomist but if I was a PvE'er only and I chose to play ESO and say I pick Ebonheart Pact I now get access to Skyrim, Morrownd and Blackmarsh....way more exploration space compared to the single player game. 

Yeah but in the single player games the land is not there!  Here they have it and they won't let us explore it - there is a huge difference.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 4:30:42 PM#235
Originally posted by azzamasin

For someone with no intention of playing you sure do display emotions to the contrary.

If they make a 2 (or 3) server option that allows to me pick my faction and explore the world on one character, I would play the game.  If they stay on the same track, I have no intention of playing.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 4:32:28 PM#236
Originally posted by azzamasin

Never said GW2 is a failure, I said WvW is a failure because it strayed to far from what made DAoC's RvR what it is.  I agree with GW2, its a great game even though I aint playing it currently but if the WvW was a tenth of what DAoC's was I would be still there.

Okay thank you for the clairifcation, sorry I got snippy.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

1/27/13 4:32:44 PM#237

I enjoyed the entire Warcraft RTS line, and I don't remember anything resembling this level of concern of lore botching and different game mechanics when WoW was announced. Maybe the comparison isn't good, but I thought it bore mentioning.

I realize Warcraft wasn't a SRPG, but still, the MMORPG came out pretty decent. (OK that's opinion. It came out succesful at any rate.)

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

1/27/13 4:34:42 PM#238
Originally posted by azzamasin

And Warcraft started off as a Real-Time-Strategy game and transitioned into an MMO.  One that is arguably the most successful ever. 

 

So what if ESO is transitioning from a single player open world RPG to a Open World MMO with 3 player factional warfare that fits within the lore of the setting.  I can buy ESO's transition far more easily then I could of Warcrafts.

 And KOTOR was a successful SRPG IP made into MMO SWOTR which failed bigtime because? Oh yeah. Taking one example, which is not the same, to try to make your argument work can easiliy be turned against you with actual examples that FIT.

Much like the LAUGHABLE comment highlighted above.

OPEN WORLD MEANS THE WORLD IS OPEN, no loading zones. It is NOT OPEN WORLD. They can call it whatever they want, it doesnt change the definition at all...just like their calling instances, campaigns...doesnt mean it is NOT instanced.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

1/27/13 4:36:30 PM#239
Geez, calm down. I was just throwing it out there. I wasn't trying to definitively proove that the earth was actually flat.
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

1/27/13 4:38:46 PM#240
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by sapphen

GW2 isn't a failure just because you didn't like it.  That has got to be a joke, you do realize that it's the 2nd most played MMO out at the moment right?  They have some work to do on their WvW systems, allowing free server transfers hurt the faction pride the most.  Races had NOTHING to do with that.

Even if it did and they want to promote faction pride then why are they forcing us to create multiple alts inorder to see the entire world?

Never said GW2 is a failure, I said WvW is a failure because it strayed to far from what made DAoC's RvR what it is.  I agree with GW2, its a great game even though I aint playing it currently but if the WvW was a tenth of what DAoC's was I would be still there.

 So lets repeat what he said and change GW2 to WvW...just because you didnt like it, doesnt mean its a fail. WvW is filled with people playing it...just like if I said RvR was a fail in DaoC, you will disagree. Even at its peak, DaoC could not produce the amount of people taking place in heavy GW2 fights and not lag or server crash...which makes DaoC RvR a total fail in my eyes because the game made that the focus of the game...and looking at what we know about TESO, 2000 player max, 200 player max on screen...the devs havent learned a thing about programming. Not surprising seeing as how the game is nothing more than DaoC 2 with no new ideas being given. They are stuck in the past, with a game that wasnt all that great or popular.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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