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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Hating the Haters

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286 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 3:31:47 PM#201
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by noncley
Originally posted by Istavaan
The hate train has well and truly moved from gw2 to TESO, you guys are getting way too predictable. Some people like being miserable, i hope the mods crack down on it because it's making this place a depressing place to visit.

Well, if you have better news, please post it here.

All we are doing is posting a fact. And the fact is that an IP known for classless, free-roaming, non-linear exploration in an open world is putting its name on a game that the developers themselves have said will be based on class-delineated, closed-off, linear gameplay n a restricted world.

This is not good news for lovers of TES.

I couldn't agree with you more noncley.  I don't want to offend people who like what ESO is planning but it's a messy business aruguing over opinions.

If Zeni never announced faction locks NONE of us would be having this conversation.  I could not imagine anyone fighting for an Elder Scrolls game to confine players to factions and areas because of what race they choose.

If Zeni announced that ESO was going with a non faction gameplay then we would have another failure of a game that copies the same failed designs of the last 15 years.  In order for that to of happened then you would of had to implement either A) FFA PvP or B) Instanced BG' if you wanted PvP.  Your PvE would of been ok I guess but then you wouldnt have the ultimate PvP system we have now.  In other words we would of gotten WoW 2.0. 

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

You will never get a game with this sort of budget going FFA.  Now i like FFA, but its a specialist market, theres only really 2 games that have had FFA and being successful - EVE & UO.  I guess you could also count FFA servers in some games like AC and DAOC too.

The energies of "the haters" woudl be better expended in my opinion if they asked zenimax to copy daco MORE and introduce FFA and coop servers.  All these arguments of "I cant travel the entire world" would be leveled at one stroke then. But no doubt thewy would find somethingelse to moan about despite never even playing the bloody game.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15605

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

1/27/13 3:32:11 PM#202
Originally posted by jtcgs

I think alot of these new found ES fans are just old DAoC fans who have been rubbing themselves raw waiting for #2

This is gettting pretty comical now, you guys are the only "real" fans, I get it....

 So, is Mario Kart a Mario game, or is it a game with Mario in it? If you are a fan of Mario, do you defend Mario Kart for being Mario or for being a driving game? What if Nintendo tries to make Mario Kart for fans of Mario and try to pass it off as nothing more than a Mario game, do you still defend it as a Mario game like a blind fool or do you point out that it isnt Mario, its a driving game? Yeah...

Donkey Kong has Mario in it, it is not a Mario game. TESO has TES in it, it is not a TES game, and NO, the mario/mario kart example DOES NOT APPLY because a side scroller and a driving game are two VERY DIFFERENT GENRES and thus CANNOT BE THE SAME. TES and TESO however are BOTH RPGs that CAN be near directly translated.

Which is NOT being done. Everything that makes up the base game of TES is being thrown out for outdated bland boring dull ideas that never took off in the first place that did create the vast limitations modern MMOs are NOW STAGNATED WITH.

To celebrate a loved IP being made with those limitations makes NO SENSE at all when if it was kept to what the IP actually was, it would make a REFRESHING NEW MMO INSTEAD!

What does this have to do with what I said?

TES is something that doesn't fit into just one game type. And to say the base game is being thrown out isn't exactly accurate for everyones approach to TES games. That's what makes them as popular as they are.

Are they seemingly throwing out certain options that TES games offer? Yes. Everything TES has to offer? I can't say definitively without playing. However a big part of TES games consist of exploring and questing, which if DEvs are to be believed is soemthing they are focusing on for PVE.

Another area is that classes seem to have many options available to them (Equipment governs areas of skill) one of my favorite aspects of TES games, and why i loved SWG so much. OF course I can't say how much this will mimic a TES experience, still these are the areas aside from lore which drew me into the franchise to begin with.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

1/27/13 3:32:39 PM#203

This entire thread and arguement is pointless

 

They will never agree to our point of view and we (I) will never agree to theirs.

 

/end

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 3:33:15 PM#204
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azzamasin

Whats that got to do with being open?  All it does is get like minded people into the same channel of the mega server. 

Everything else is open, Skyrim is a zone, Cyrodill is a Zone, Morrowind is a Zone, Elsweyr is a zone....all open, all feature go off exploration centric gameplay with no quest hubbing.

These areas are not open, they are closed off by races.  You have to create 3 different characters to explore all of Tamriel.  That is not the type of exploring enjoyed in ES games.  There is no need to limit players in such a way.  If they didn't focus on the racial war then they could've left these areas open for everyone.

And you have to buy 3 different games to explore half tamriel in the single player game.  Your points are no valid no matter how hard you want them to be! 

 

ESO is still open, it features the exact same exploration centric gameplay that Skyrim does, that Morrowind does, and that Oblivian does.  Having a 3 player faction system does not take away from it being open because based on the areas we get to play in the MMO its already more open (by your definition) then the single player game.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 3:33:52 PM#205
Originally posted by PyrateLV

This entire thread and arguement is pointless

 

They will never agree to our point of view and we (I) will never agree to theirs.

 

/end

Then leave these sub forums and quit arguing with people who are looking forward to the game.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

1/27/13 3:34:50 PM#206
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo

err you dont make sense Skyrim is a single player game, teso is a mmo, THEY ARE IN DIFFERENT GENRES.

Not totally different genres; SP-RPG v. MMO-RPG.  Roleplaying game is a roleplaying game, adding a bunch of people hardly changes the genre classification drastically.  Many things from TES could've translated into a MMO.

And many things have been

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 3:36:33 PM#207
Originally posted by PyrateLV

This entire thread and arguement is pointless

 

They will never agree to our point of view and we (I) will never agree to theirs.

 

/end

then come back when you've actually bloody played the thing.  Or even seen a video of it in action.

  k11keeper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1034

"" "" "" ""

1/27/13 3:37:54 PM#208

Fact is for me if I want to be a wood elf and my friend wants to be a race from a different faction and neither of us can change sides I'm gonna be mad. Don't care what anyone has to say about that but if that is going to be the case I will not be happy. Will I still try it? Probably, will I complain about it? Hell yes I will.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

1/27/13 3:39:00 PM#209
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by PyrateLV

This entire thread and arguement is pointless

 

They will never agree to our point of view and we (I) will never agree to theirs.

 

/end

then come back when you've actually bloody played the thing.  Or even seen a video of it in action.

LOL says the guys who cheerlead a game they havent played or seen either. Classic

 

Just love these gollums who rage against anyone who dares to defile their precious and tell others what they should or should not say or where they should or shouldnt post

ROFL

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 3:40:25 PM#210
Originally posted by deakon

Left click hit, hold left click power hit, right click block, hold right click and hit left to interupt, sound familiar?

Being able to wear any armor or weapon regardless of class, sound familiar?

Leveling skills/armor/weapons up the more you use them, sound familiar?

Every class can use stealth, sound familiar?

Every class can block, sound familiar?

Stamina, health and magica as the 3 main stats, sound familiar?

No cd on spells and attacks, sound familiar?

Still doesn't change the fact that they faction locked races and areas to be like DAoC.  Am I supposed to be grateful that they might've gotten a few things right?  The above is all fine and good but TES is about freedom to choose your factions and explore the land.

Many of these have been done in MMOs already, what good are these systems if they didn't represent the core of TES.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15605

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

1/27/13 3:44:04 PM#211
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by deakon

Left click hit, hold left click power hit, right click block, hold right click and hit left to interupt, sound familiar?

Being able to wear any armor or weapon regardless of class, sound familiar?

Leveling skills/armor/weapons up the more you use them, sound familiar?

Every class can use stealth, sound familiar?

Every class can block, sound familiar?

Stamina, health and magica as the 3 main stats, sound familiar?

No cd on spells and attacks, sound familiar?

Still doesn't change the fact that they faction locked races and areas to be like DAoC.  Am I supposed to be grateful that they might've gotten a few things right?  The above is all fine and good but TES is about freedom to choose your factions and explore the land.

Many of these have been done in MMOs already, what good are these systems if they didn't represent the core of TES.

A question that can't be answered at present.

IF these things bother you so much, you don't have to play.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  k11keeper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1034

"" "" "" ""

1/27/13 3:45:24 PM#212
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by deakon

Left click hit, hold left click power hit, right click block, hold right click and hit left to interupt, sound familiar?

Being able to wear any armor or weapon regardless of class, sound familiar?

Leveling skills/armor/weapons up the more you use them, sound familiar?

Every class can use stealth, sound familiar?

Every class can block, sound familiar?

Stamina, health and magica as the 3 main stats, sound familiar?

No cd on spells and attacks, sound familiar?

Still doesn't change the fact that they faction locked races and areas to be like DAoC.  Am I supposed to be grateful that they might've gotten a few things right?  The above is all fine and good but TES is about freedom to choose your factions and explore the land.

Many of these have been done in MMOs already, what good are these systems if they didn't represent the core of TES.

I agreee. Those features might be why some play TES games (and they are great I love them) but that's not my #1 reason I play TES. I play so I can go and do whatever I want and don't feel hindered at all. Locking races in 3 factions and holding me inside one of those factions sounds hindereing and therefore I do not support the idea one bit.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 3:46:53 PM#213
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by PyrateLV

This entire thread and arguement is pointless

 

They will never agree to our point of view and we (I) will never agree to theirs.

 

/end

then come back when you've actually bloody played the thing.  Or even seen a video of it in action.

LOL says the guys who cheerlead a game they havent played or seen either. Classic

Im not cheer leading, it may be great as its taking from 2 great games DAOC and Skyrim

It may also be shite, im very wary of the "you are the hero" setup and phasing for storyline.  If they do too much of that we will end up at worst in swtor territory or at best in TSW territory where it will be fun the 1st time then be stale.

but i cant tell yet as i've not seen it in action.  I know i hate SWTOR, because i played the horrible thing, ive never played teso.

im also not keen on this megaserver concept as i would prefer to play on a Mordred type server where i can go where i want and kill who i like, but I would take a rvr setup over a pvp shunted into instanced mingames wow stylee setup anyday, as I have have found RVR games fun particularly daoc and planetside, although generally i prefer eve style pvp systems.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 3:48:16 PM#214
Originally posted by ShakyMo

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 3:52:59 PM#215
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

I started playing MMO's with Asheron's Call in November of 1999 when it released, was selected for the beta the same summer and I've been playing AC off and on now for 14+ years.  It still remains my favorite MMO of all time but that doesn't mean some of the systems it uses are outdated and would be better off if it offered some more common themepark elements like:

  • Auction Houses
  • Group Finder
  • Limited bag space inventory system instead of Encumberance system
  • removal of 20 min buffing sessions
  • plus other things
 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/27/13 3:54:51 PM#216
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

yeah like the houses in morrowind.  I said a simmilar thing in another thread.  I guess the problem is modern players and following the path of least resistance they fear they will all pile on one faction.  But they could say have 3 imperial houses you join, but you make that descision at character creation.

The more obvious soloution though is to copy daocs core/ffa/coop server setup.

Core servers played likethey are saying.  Separate pve area for each faction, shared faction pvp area.

FFA servers, almost entire world was PVP flagged and guilds could claim keeps in the rvr area, you could visit the entire world.  (think darkfall without player loot)

Coop servers you could travel the entire world and make guilds and groups with members of the other factions.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 3:55:41 PM#217
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

And you wouldn't have the systems in place that promote community and faction pride.  Arguably the biggest reasons why GW2 WvW is the failure it is.  I want the feeling like I had in DAoC of fighting that Elf invader or Troll Invader as opposed to invader....when the nemey is different looking and comes from different lands its more immersive and offers greater pride for defending your realm.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

1/27/13 3:56:18 PM#218
Originally posted by azzamasin

And you have to buy 3 different games to explore half tamriel in the single player game.  Your points are no valid no matter how hard you want them to be! 

ESO is still open, it features the exact same exploration centric gameplay that Skyrim does, that Morrowind does, and that Oblivian does.  Having a 3 player faction system does not take away from it being open because based on the areas we get to play in the MMO its already more open (by your definition) then the single player game.

Excuss me but who are you to confined?  I have valid points because they are my own, no matter how bad you want to dismiss them.

ESO is closed off by faction.  What about the people who aren't playing the game for PvP, such as the explorers and PvE'rs, are their points invalid?  Are people who don't want to create and level a bunch of alts to see the world invalid?

Who in their right mind would think to restrict a game known for open-adventures and exploration - why would they think it best to close off the areas and choice of faction for the sake of PvP?  They could've had a 3 faction war without faction locking races and areas.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 3:57:03 PM#219
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by ShakyMo

yeah if they didnt have RVR, what would they do instead, my guess would be stale old crappy grind minigames for pvp tokens.  Which would make the game MORE of a wow clone.

I'm not saying they couldn't have RvR, I'm just saying they should've wrote the setting as 3 different groups; lead by the Breton Merchant Lord, the Nord High King and the High Elf Queen - fighting instead of everyone uniting under a nice and neat 3 race, 3 faction system.  Make people join one of these factions in order to PvP.

yeah like the houses in morrowind.  I said a simmilar thing in another thread.  I guess the problem is modern players and following the path of least resistance they fear they will all pile on one faction.  But they could say have 3 imperial houses you join, but you make that descision at character creation.

The more obvious soloution though is to copy daocs core/ffa/coop server setup.

Core servers played likethey are saying.  Separate pve area for each faction, shared faction pvp area.

FFA servers, almost entire world was PVP flagged and guilds could claim keeps in the rvr area, you could visit the entire world.  (think darkfall without player loot)

Coop servers you could travel the entire world and make guilds and groups with members of the other factions.

Yea this is what I would like to see too, co-op server and FFA server to appease those who want that.  Makes it hard to do on a mega server technology though.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

1/27/13 3:59:06 PM#220
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

...The MMO genre has very much been "bastardized" in a matter of speaking; those who started in the 90s or early 00's typically loved MMOs for what they were...  

Agreed. There is a huge gap in mindset between the people who played mmorpgs before WoW, versus those that started after. WoW signalled a massive shift in mmorpgs; games became much less hardcore when levelling and far more accessible to casual players. That was a good thing in many ways, but a bad thing in others. People talk about wanting the good ole pre-Wow days, but at the same time I think their memory is biased somewhat: they remember the good things more than the bad.

MMORPG.com has a lot more of the old school players, so you are going to get a different perspective here than from the mmorpg player base as a whole. The problem is, making a game that appeals mainly to old school players probably wont be financially successful, especially for a game like Elder Scrolls which has a huge player base, most of whom are not hardcore PvPers. There is no way that ESO will put years of development and  tens of millions of dollars into a game with limited mainstream appeal. That may be what the old school players want, but its not a viable business model for a game with widespread appeal like Elder Scrolls.

Plus, when you listen to the old school players talk about what made the games they liked great, they often dont agree. They have many different wants and perspectives. It wouldnt be possible to design a game for them because there is no one game that would satisfy most of them. They will complain about what the game companies do, not accepting the fact that investors arent going to fork over $100M to design a game to appeal to 100k people. A smaller indie company might spend less and target that nicke market, but not a game based on Elder Scrolls. I am sure they are aiming for 1M+, and you wont get there by designing a game for hardcore PvPers. First and foremost they need to satisfy a large chunk of the ES/Skyrim player base, and make sure that the game is appealing to a wide variety of players. They say max level can be reached in 120 hours and that is obviously aimed at casual and semi-casual players.

By the way, I am an old school gamer, but have spent decades in the business world, I dont let my gaming desires blind me to the financial reality these companies are facing. Like it or not, WoW has revolutionized the industry and greatly upped the curve in terms of $ and polish required to publish a game, and massively changed the playerbase. Any game aimed at mainstream players would be foolish to ignore that.

I started playing MMO's with Asheron's Call in November of 1999 when it released, was selected for the beta the same summer and I've been playing AC off and on now for 14+ years.  It still remains my favorite MMO of all time but that doesn't mean some of the systems it uses are outdated and would be better off if it offered some more common themepark elements like:

  • Auction Houses
  • Group Finder
  • Limited bag space inventory system instead of Encumberance system
  • removal of 20 min buffing sessions
  • plus other things
 

Ofcourse but AC, even though it is my favourite MMO of all times, is over a decade old. Turbine should have evolved it but instead went ThemePark with AC 2 and LotrO and there hasn't been a single triple A sandbox since and that is the main issue here. Devs with money and resources, not spending it on evolving the sandbox concept but rather throwing out ThemePark after ThemePark, hoping to get a piece of the 10 million sub pie of WoW.

ESO would have been an excellent candidate for a triple A sandbox MMO because everything about Skyrim screams sandbox but noooo, here comes yet another ThemePark... getting fed up with this shit.

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