Originally posted by MurlockDance

Erm, well if she is being a hypocrite, then it is perfectly in the right of a person to call her out on it. I don't condone the behaviour of some women trying as hard as they can to use their sexual attributes to attract attention and then denigrate men who are attracted to them because of it. Sure doesn't mean that they should insult her of course, but she should accept responsibility for her actions too.

How? You want me to accept action for being born the way I am? Where do I sign up? 

BTW I have multiple cuts of shirts I wear, but most of you only notice one.... weird....

Now I have said it a million times, I understand who and what I am and what I look like. I expect people to come after me because of my "special" features. What I was mainly commenting on is people in game who have never seen me, attacking me for being a girl. 

Also, how is it not sexist to tell me what to wear and to expect these a**hats? I shouldn't have to deal with it no matter what. People should just be nice and if they dont like what I was born with, who cares? Why are you watching a gaming stream to focus on my boobs? How much entertainment can that really be? Eventually you will get bored and move on if that is your intent. 

I stream cause I think I am a enjoyable person to watch have fun and have fun with my viewers. Plus it is like a guild in some ways, you always have a friend in game! 

Originally posted by Gamayun

I'll put these three links here, because they illustrate the topic well:

-Anita Sarkeesian at TEDxWomen 2012

-Ill Doctrine: All These Sexist Gamer Dudes Are Some Shook Ones

-Every message is the same. I’m always either fat and ugly, or a slut.

I expect a lot of comments will be about how sexism in gaming doesn't exist, how it's not a big issue at all, and how actually men suffer more than women in that regard. 

 Le me reply to that with a LOL in advance. 

 Rudeness and plain harassment in games are not gender neutral, and are not equally tallied. There's a whole spectrum of behavior and insults that women are subjected to and men aren't. The insults are usually connected to female sexuality and body (sexual objectifying of women gamers, disacknowledgment of women's right to express themselves and to freely accept/reject romantic or sexual advances) and to the idea of female inferiority and extremely locked gender roles. 

Anyway, one part of the problem is the representation of women (heavily idealized and sexualized body and armor in comparison to male characters) , still often restrictive roles of female characters in games. The other is the community, where intolerance and disdain for females, various minorities... (the "Other"), already present outside the internet, become even more problematic in an environment without personal responsibility and with a tradition of excluding women. 

 Sure, there are women who conform to and agree with the currently predominant (male?) gamer mentality, because we're all affected by the same and constant messages by the media and the society, and there's always the pressure to fit in the group, but that doesn't make sexism right or good.

Does sum this current dicussion rather well. And now we also have the verbal attack on how LadyEuphei (that are doing a great deal in creating a good gaming community enivorment compaired to many of us) are behaving to put on the list that begun the text I quoted. A freaking shame tbh. 

The problem lies in parenting.  Most of the parents of these kids on the net today were too busy to teach them manners.  Let's face it far too many parents are way too busy to spend time teaching kids ethics, just look at all the cheating that goes on in many of these games.

I don't think I have seem so many clueless posts on this board confirming exactly what the author is complaining about.  Really guys, isn't about time you wised up a bit.  Going to be a bit hard finding a decent mate with some of the attitudes I see on display here.  

The problem is weak men and women who get offended by jiggle physics.  The problem will never be resolved by fingerpointing.  *Please note I am not saying that all men and women fit in these catagories...I can hear the typing now. 

If you think this is such a problem then form your own all girl gaming company.  If your games outsell what the boys are selling than you hit them where it counts.  Their pocketbook. 

I think we, the females, need to realize we are coming into a world where giggle tracks and jiggle physics are a reality.  Personally I find them rather funny, and I tend to laugh about it with the guys in my guild, who for the most part also find it rather silly.  If a guy wants to claim I'm not good at gaming I let him have his opinion and shrug it off.  Who cares what some idiot thinks?  My guildmates still call on me all the time and those are the people who really matter to me.  My friends. 

I can't help but think that the events enumerated on the list in this post do not require the gaming industry to happen.  You can take out video games and insert just about any other topic and have the same problems.  Instead of a gaming convention party insert frat party.  Instead of gaming team insert just about any sport.  These problems do not originate in gaming.  Hence my opening comment. 

These things will start to change when some women stop wailing and knashing their teeth about things like jiggle physics and giggle tracks and laugh at them instead.  When we start ignoring the senseless and highlighting strong men who are not threatened by a beautiful, intelligent, or talented woman working in the gaming industry (and I would argue their are many who may be too busy working to come jump into some senseless online fray - honestly we shouldn't be giving these silly things as much credence as we do). We need to highlight when a strong man stands up to the weak men and tells them to grow up.  We must choose to be positive and enjoy our games regardless of what some of these weak men say.  

If we continue to scream and wail we will always be seen as "raging women who want to take away what boys like about video games."  They forget that we tend to like the same things, except for the overly large jiggling bazangas, but if we can learn to laugh at it, maybe they will learn to laugh at it, and perhaps it will not be so present in videogames.  If that doesn't happen however, I don't mind, because sometimes it can be comedy gold.  It's all about how you choose to look at things.

Originally posted by Brialyn

The problem is weak men and women who get offended by jiggle physics.  The problem will never be resolved by fingerpointing.  *Please note I am not saying that all men and women fit in these catagories...I can hear the typing now. 

 

If you think this is such a problem then form your own all girl gaming company.  If your games outsell what the boys are selling than you hit them where it counts.  Their pocketbook. 

 

I think we, the females, need to realize we are coming into a world where giggle tracks and jiggle physics are a reality.  Personally I find them rather funny, and I tend to laugh about it with the guys in my guild, who for the most part also find it rather silly.  If a guy wants to claim I'm not good at gaming I let him have his opinion and shrug it off.  Who cares what some idiot thinks?  My guildmates still call on me all the time and those are the people who really matter to me.  My friends. 

 

I can't help but think that the events enumerated on the list in this post do not require the gaming industry to happen.  You can take out video games and insert just about any other topic and have the same problems.  Instead of a gaming convention party insert frat party.  Instead of gaming team insert just about any sport.  These problems do not originate in gaming.  Hence my opening comment. 

 

These things will start to change when some women stop wailing and knashing their teeth about things like jiggle physics and giggle tracks and laugh at them instead.  When we start ignoring the senseless and highlighting strong men who are not threatened by a beautiful, intelligent, or talented woman working in the gaming industry (and I would argue their are many who may be too busy working to come jump into some senseless online fray - honestly we shouldn't be giving these silly things as much credence as we do). We need to highlight when a strong man stands up to the weak men and tells them to grow up.  We must choose to be positive and enjoy our games regardless of what some of these weak men say.  

 

If we continue to scream and wail we will always be seen as "raging women who want to take away what boys like about video games."  They forget that we tend to like the same things, except for the overly large jiggling bazangas, but if we can learn to laugh at it, maybe they will learn to laugh at it, and perhaps it will not be so present in videogames.  If that doesn't happen however, I don't mind, because sometimes it can be comedy gold.  It's all about how you choose to look at things.

 

 

Lol @ jiggle physics. I do agree that it is bad when you have the girl gamers come out and attack everything in a game. 

I can remember from GW2 that there was a girl that had a short skirt and it was all over the web how offensive it was. Then there was the Elin from Tera (although that was a bit more creepy). 

I am conflicted on the issue to be honest. In one hand we have the "it is already there, deal with it" mentality and on the other "why should we?" mentality. I have been forced to deal with it and I think that has made me cowed into accepting it. I do not see males with overly large gentital swinging from their short shorts. 

I really do not know what is right, I just think that maybe we have become complacent and maybe it is time that gamers became aware that there is a human behind the boobs.

I believe gaming has come along way.

Boys will be Boys and Girls will be Girls.

As an older girl gamer, I look back on my younger gaming days with fondness.

I loved the attention when I played Parsec and actually fueled my ship without crashing. ( If you are old enough to remember putting a cassette tape in and hooking up your "computer" to be able to play.)

My pick of boyfriends was amazing. (Because lets face it, they may have been nerds, but they had money.)

There are so many benefits to being a girl gamer....... I got married to one :)

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bliss14

Originally posted by troublmaker

How is there supposed to be a discussion on gender related topics when all of the posts are being deleted and modified by moderators?

I understand people who are acting bullying but I didn't see that here...

I had one mine deleted and i'm not even sure why.  No notification or anything.

The best thing to do, when you have a question like that is to drop a PM to MikeB. In the years I've been here, he has been quite even handed and fair about things.

Permission to post a comment that doesn't break the rules or permission to post a comment that opposes their stance on the social issue? I'm lost.

 

 

 

 

Different mods have different takes on things.  Some can be more harsh/strict than others.  Its also a matter of experience, and perspective (and context).  If you have any questions about these types of things, send MikeB a PM. As I mentioned, he's always seemed pretty even handed and fair about these things.

Originally posted by Fendel84M

Originally posted by Wighty

 

 throw on ridiculous makeup and purple hair and talk about how awesome you are at games when you run around with a group of pokket healers (see what I did there).

 

 

 

 

ouch...that was kinda mean.

Yes it was.  Speaking of which I've not seen Pokket around here for awhile.  It would be interesting to compare her take on issues like "sexism" in gaming with the new one.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by KaylettaJade

Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by KaylettaJade

I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

 

Yellow:  That would be HILARIOUS. I would laugh, as would many others, thats the difference. Im adult enough to not draw a connection between online violence and real life violence.

Now if someone tries to find out where you live and stalk you... thats different, its the real world, you are in actual jeapordy. You are not in any danger behind your computer screen and someone is screaming in chat that they want to rape you in front of your dog.

 

Red: If you post personal information to strangers, YOU ARE OPENING YOURSELF TO JUDGEMENT about who you are in real life, not who you are in a video game. Don't kid yourself, in real life you are being judged at all times in public. In a game, you are judged by what your avatar is and is doing, UNTIL you add your real life self to it.

 

Morals, and acceptable behaviour are not universal. If they were no war would happen, nothing would bother anyone.

If 1 in 5 men had that happen for real, would it still be funny? If it had happened to you, would you find jokes about it amusing? Somehow I doubt that. We easily forget that while the video game is a pretend world, we live in a real one where real things happens. Not everything can be brushed away or just ignored.

 

Judgement I'm fine with. Pass judgement all day long, think I'm ugly, fat, and stupid, be my guest. But our willingness to condesendingly pass judgement on those we don't know and don't understand has nothing to do with spewing vitriol at someone. There is a huge difference between people making assumptions based on my profile, or my avatar, or my facebook and people threatening rape or disfigurement because they don't like that I had more kills than them, or beat them in pvp, or was tapped as raid leader. One, although foolish, is social acceptable; the other is down right disgusting.

 

But we're talking about words or thoughts here.  It's a big difference.  You choose to let them affect you, or you don't.

No one has the right to never be offended.  We would all have to be forced to believe the same way, and act the same way, in order to make that happen.  Who's going to decide what "right" is?  Is it right to dictate to others how to think?

Just because others are different - act differently, believe differently - doesn't necessarily make them wrong.

That's the basic problem as I see it.  There are those that do not mind trampling all over other people's freedom in pursuit of their own objectives, or to consolidate their own power.

As an example, if this article was found offensive to men in the way it uses broad strokes to smear a gender, its wrongful accusations, and its one-sidedness, should the article be deleted and the author censured?

Except that we aren't just talking about words and thoughts. 1 in 5 women will be raped. If you threaten to rape a woman face to face we have systems to deal with that (police, sexual harrassment policies, restraining orders, etc), but in an entertainment venue we're supposed to laugh it off and act like it's okay, just because we're supposed to be safe and anonymous? Hate to break it to you, but the internet isn't safe and anonymous. Doesn't take a lot to find someone.

This whole discourse isn't about being offended. I don't get offended over people talking smack. I think Stephen Fry said it best (if you aren't familiar with the quote, google it). But I'm not interested in being told in graphic detail how someone wants to disfigure my genitals and rape me with a knife. I should not ever have to hear that. And frankly, neither should anyone. That isn't me being offended, that's just foul and disgusting and should never be accepted by society, peroid. There is a difference between dictating what others must think and drawing moral lines. We've already drawn the moral line that says rape is unacceptable. We've already drawn the moral line that says threatening rape is unacceptable. If you want an example, google California criminal threat laws. It covers rape threats made over electronic devices.

And yes, in any circumstance, threatening rape is wrong.

Now, I understand that a guy who's about to go into a duel says "Imma rape that bitch, watch this" isn't threatening rape. Even if his opponent is female. He's just shit talking.  Pretty standard stuff. And I agree that this falls into a much more broad category of how we generally treat each other. But someone who hounds a woman across 7 characters on 3 accounts over 5 days, graphically recounting how they want to maim and rape her - that is the misogynistic crap that I believe needs to be 100% unacceptable. That goes way above and beyond talking shit. That kind of stuff is the problem that women complain about.

I also agree if we tackled the entire problem of how we treat one another, it would likely be solved. But, that wasn't what the article was about. By all means, write one about the pathetic way gamers treat each other, I will be glad to see it written and will participate in the discussion.

Personally, I found the article pretty bad. Especially her "I'm angry at everybody" tirade. Add to that the entire pointless drivel, with no pertinent information, and altogether I don't think the site should've published it at all. You're right it focuses on the author crying about those mean men, painting them negatively in broad fashion instead of narrowing it down to the worst of it, the extreme misogynists, which are invariably a tiny fraction of the overall population. A better article would have examined the whole of gaming culture, demonstrating all the bile that gets spewed in its various forms, one of those being misogyny, but it would have taken it's place beside racisism, anti-semitism, homophobia, etc, but that would have required research, writing skill, and journalistic integrity, things lacking from the piece that was actually written.

If its in a game, as in part of the story I dont care about it. Imagine Age of Conan, where women are treated as "equals" with no sexual references at all...it wouldnt be Conan.

Of course, treating a female player or a gay/bi player in such a way is NOT right or OK at all and it should be stopped. Thankfully none of that happens in my guild, we have been together for a long time and no most of each others real names.