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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » So no real time combat?

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49 posts found
  Kreedz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/11
Posts: 448

1/27/13 3:56:23 AM#21

OP Doesnt know the difference in meaning between Real Time Combat (which almost all MMO's are) and Turn Based Combat (Poke-mans!).

Think he is refering to the actual way you combat with players, where you have your traditional Select Target > Cast Spell > Spell Follows target way, where as Skyrim was completely FPS Based, Aim and Shoot style.

 

FYI, GW2 is a Hybrid, you can Target players, but you can also Free-Swing your weapon to try and hit them, and Projectiles are able to be Body-Blocked. Just thought I'd clear that up. Much like TERA... without the Terribad Animation Locks...mostly.

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  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5514

1/27/13 4:20:47 AM#22
Originally posted by Kreedz

OP Doesnt know the difference in meaning between Real Time Combat (which almost all MMO's are) and Turn Based Combat (Poke-mans!).

Think he is refering to the actual way you combat with players, where you have your traditional Select Target > Cast Spell > Spell Follows target way, where as Skyrim was completely FPS Based, Aim and Shoot style.

 

FYI, GW2 is a Hybrid, you can Target players, but you can also Free-Swing your weapon to try and hit them, and Projectiles are able to be Body-Blocked. Just thought I'd clear that up. Much like TERA... without the Terribad Animation Locks...mostly.

most games, MMO's are turn based, you also have cool downs on skills, but basically it just means that in any given time period, you can only carry out a single activity, mostly it was used to stop people with a location advantage to the game servers from having an unfair advantage over those further away, (increased latency due to distance) for some of the earlier games i've played in, EQ etc, i think this was timed at about 240 ms but it may have been less, certianly for modern MMO's now i wouldnt expect it to be over 150 ms.  But thats what i've generally accepted to be as 'turn based'  ... its actually very difficult to make a game with real time combat, in a fair way, without using some pretty heavy regional restrictions on the servers, think of it, because your say 40 ms away from the server and someone else is sitting on perhaps 120 ms, you will always hit first, unless you place restrictions on what can be done within a time period. Think it was this that encouraged Eve online to introduce the 'time warp' in combat especially as the combat itself scaled up.

  Kreedz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/11
Posts: 448

1/27/13 4:27:52 AM#23
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Kreedz

OP Doesnt know the difference in meaning between Real Time Combat (which almost all MMO's are) and Turn Based Combat (Poke-mans!).

Think he is refering to the actual way you combat with players, where you have your traditional Select Target > Cast Spell > Spell Follows target way, where as Skyrim was completely FPS Based, Aim and Shoot style.

 

FYI, GW2 is a Hybrid, you can Target players, but you can also Free-Swing your weapon to try and hit them, and Projectiles are able to be Body-Blocked. Just thought I'd clear that up. Much like TERA... without the Terribad Animation Locks...mostly.

most games, MMO's are turn based, you also have cool downs on skills, but basically it just means that in any given time period, you can only carry out a single activity, mostly it was used to stop people with a location advantage to the game servers from having an unfair advantage over those further away, (increased latency due to distance) for some of the earlier games i've played in, EQ etc, i think this was timed at about 240 ms but it may have been less, certianly for modern MMO's now i wouldnt expect it to be over 150 ms.  But thats what i've generally accepted to be as 'turn based'  ... its actually very difficult to make a game with real time combat, in a fair way, without using some pretty heavy regional restrictions on the servers, think of it, because your say 40 ms away from the server and someone else is sitting on perhaps 120 ms, you will always hit first, unless you place restrictions on what can be done within a time period. Think it was this that encouraged Eve online to introduce the 'time warp' in combat especially as the combat itself scaled up.

Sorry, But No.

 

You can't call something Turn Based because it feels Turn Based, it either is, or is not.

 

In MMO's the Enemy doesnt wait for you to take your turn, you either use an ability or you dont.

 

Cooldowns =/= Turn Based System.

"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/27/13 4:53:06 AM#24


Sorry, But No.
You can't call something Turn Based because it feels Turn Based, it either is, or is not.

 
In MMO's the Enemy doesnt wait for you to take your turn, you either use an ability or you dont.


It is, Look at the combat logs.

Boss attacks you for 83 Damage (boss attack X against you defend with stat Y)
You attack boss for 33 damage (you attack Y boss defends with X)

Attack and defend. - Automated turns.

 


Cooldowns =/= Turn Based System.

its != ...


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  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1402

1/27/13 5:02:32 AM#25
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Sorry, But No.
You can't call something Turn Based because it feels Turn Based, it either is, or is not.

 

 
In MMO's the Enemy doesnt wait for you to take your turn, you either use an ability or you dont.


 

It is, Look at the combat logs.

Boss attacks you for 83 Damage (boss attack X against you defend with stat Y)
You attack boss for 33 damage (you attack Y boss defends with X)

Attack and defend. - Automated turns.

 


Cooldowns =/= Turn Based System.

its != ...

 

So if Starcraft has a combat log you can call it turn based?

Each unit attacks and defends with stats. You also have cooldowns in Starcraft.

 

I always thought games like Civilization, X-Com and Chess are turn based.

  coltonjefferson

Novice Member

Joined: 10/24/12
Posts: 33

1/27/13 5:06:54 AM#26
Watch the introductory to Elder Scrolls Online and there is combat info in there.... The combat is going to be like how it is in Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind. You use the Left Click mouse button to attack and Right Click mouse button to block.
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/27/13 5:08:57 AM#27


Originally posted by immodium
So if Starcraft has a combat log you can call it turn based?

Each unit attacks and defends with stats. You also have cooldowns in Starcraft.

 

I always thought games like Civilization, X-Com and Chess are turn based.


Do you associate starcraft 2 with a tile map? Same systems used in 16bit zelda games?
Yep its still present.



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  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/27/13 5:15:20 AM#28


Originally posted by coltonjefferson
Watch the introductory to Elder Scrolls Online and there is combat info in there.... The combat is going to be like how it is in Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind. You use the Left Click mouse button to attack and Right Click mouse button to block.

Humor me for a sec, If you replaced the word block, With interrupt. Would it not be the same implementation as what we see currently?

Considering it is also fact that there will be a hard lock tab target system?


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  jedensuscg

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 212

1/27/13 5:16:29 AM#29

What it comes down to is not whether you prefer traditional mmo combat or action mmo combat.

What it comes down to is that for this to be called anything resembling a Elder Scrolls game, is must have certain elements from EVERY SINGLE elder scrolls game that came before, things that make it that kind of game.

It must have the original style, player control, no tab targeting, action style combat.

period.

If it does not, then it is just some pathetic, moronic, retarded, wannabe developer full of scum of the earth pathetic developers trying to cash in on the name "Elder Scrolls" while laughing the whole time to the bank about how they pulled a fast one on lovers of TES.

Now that being said, I have yet to see evidence pointing in a definite direction which way they will go with combat.  Truthfully, I am not a fan of action MMO's like tera and the like/  BUT, I also know that if you start to change core mechanics of a game, mechanics that are as much apart of that game as your legs are to you, then you deserve to rot in the darkest place of game design hell, somewhere between SOE and EA.

Players loved TES as much for its combat as for its world and lore.  If this game screws any of that over, it will into another SWTOR and plummet.  Because there is one thing that fans do not like, and that is screwing with their games just to make a quick buck.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1402

1/27/13 5:16:46 AM#30
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by immodium
So if Starcraft has a combat log you can call it turn based?

 

Each unit attacks and defends with stats. You also have cooldowns in Starcraft.

 

I always thought games like Civilization, X-Com and Chess are turn based.


 

Do you associate starcraft 2 with a tile map? Same systems used in 16bit zelda games?
Yep its still present.

 

I've not played all MMO's so there might be Turn Based ones. Games like WoW, LotRo, SWtOR, GW2 etc are not Turn Based.

You just made it sound like the Turn Based genre got its name because people attack and defend through stats.

  Fdzzaigl

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2160

1/27/13 5:21:02 AM#31

"No real time combat" means turn based combat.

And I'm pretty sure that ain't it.

From what I've heard to far you seem to have hotkeys but they retain the aspect of click to hit as well.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/27/13 6:07:51 AM#32


Originally posted by immodium

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by immodium So if Starcraft has a combat log you can call it turn based?   Each unit attacks and defends with stats. You also have cooldowns in Starcraft.   I always thought games like Civilization, X-Com and Chess are turn based.
  Do you associate starcraft 2 with a tile map? Same systems used in 16bit zelda games? Yep its still present.  
I've not played all MMO's so there might be Turn Based ones. Games like WoW, LotRo, SWtOR, GW2 etc are not Turn Based.

You just made it sound like the Turn Based genre got its name because people attack and defend through stats.


I never said it originated like that, Im trying to say its a type of turned based implementation.

In fairness TESO will probably a hybrid system that uses both ideas.


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  Mollow

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/03
Posts: 66

1/27/13 7:16:36 AM#33
Originally posted by Ambros123

Well.... aren't all MMOs real time combat?

As far as tab target issues, it's entirely optional.  One can either use the tab targer system or go after the aim stuff like in TES games according to the Alpha build play demo given to those invited to the studio a while back.

What he/she said ^

 

In other words, you can use your crosshair to aim at what you want to hit.  The thing or person you aim your crosshair at will have a red glowing "aura" of some sort.

Otherwise you can lock on your target, which I guess is using a key similar to Tab in most MMOs.

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

1/27/13 7:34:05 AM#34
Originally posted by Mange1

Sorry for the confusion, perhaps if you replace real time combat with action mmo combat that may help clear things up.  I like games like TERA, Forge, Chivalry, etc.  This is the kind of combat I want in a MMO.  At some point it was age of conan but they do have tab targetting, but it's only really tab targeting for the ranges classes.  The melee didn't have to tab target to land skills with DT as an exception.

When I say tab targetting I mean WoW and GW2, you rotate thru targets with the tab key and hit them with abilities automatically. 

GW2 has the option to choose how you want to play...If you want to play like what you just described, you can.

But if you want to make it better for yourself and actually position your character the way you want and use your skills that's available as well. So if you decide to use a skill, but you're not close enough for your sword to reach the enemy, you'll miss and just swing at air.. For that kind of gameplay style you don't need the "tab targeting" because you just walk upto someone and start smashing him which is far better than the tab-targeting. It's a hybrid between tab-targetting and mouse targeting.

No real time combat means the game has turn-based combat or something simillar to that...

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADD1vkdpM-g

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  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

1/27/13 7:38:23 AM#35

I'm expecting at best it'll be TERA like, at worse it'll probably respond as well as World of Warcraft does.

Moot point really. It's the fact there's hot bars and classes that'll ruin the combat for ESO. I mean I can handle it being more Morrowind than Oblivion with stats counting strikes or not, but following every other MMOs model out there with so much static progression is what causes the ick in my stomach to rise.

a yo ho ho

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/27/13 7:39:17 AM#36


Originally posted by Mollow

Originally posted by Ambros123 Well.... aren't all MMOs real time combat? As far as tab target issues, it's entirely optional.  One can either use the tab targer system or go after the aim stuff like in TES games according to the Alpha build play demo given to those invited to the studio a while back.
What he/she said ^

 

In other words, you can use your crosshair to aim at what you want to hit.  The thing or person you aim your crosshair at will have a red glowing "aura" of some sort.

Otherwise you can lock on your target, which I guess is using a key similar to Tab in most MMOs.


Not to sound doom But, I think you will find there will be alot of "social pressure" to use hard lock targeting due to it being more "safe" and "Pro"

Good example of this is the new reticule targeting in tsw, I don't know anyone that uses it productively. (doesn't mean people still don't use it)


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  Bloodaxes

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 2660

1/27/13 7:45:19 AM#37

I just don't want ranged and magic attacks being auto aimed we are in a time and place where even f2p games have free aiming with ranged weapons so there's no excuse they can't do it.

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

1/27/13 8:31:24 AM#38
This game isnt tab target, tab is in the gamne but if you tab a target that your not aiming at you wont hit them, tab is there to call out targets and if your have a group of mobs stacked you can chose a specific one to hit, its a soft lock not a hard lock
  Thorqemada

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1227

1/27/13 8:47:41 AM#39

Real Time Manual Targetting Combat is a huge pain bcs you have huge disparities between connections and pings and computer hardware giving some people an edge and some the backseat from that alone.

Also this type of combat will become a hackfest.

It sounds good in theory but neither the security nor the world wide web have made the needed technical advancements to offer it in an economical sustainable way.

Idealism doesnt work in anarchy...

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2830

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 9:05:38 AM#40
Originally posted by Ambros123

Well.... aren't all MMOs real time combat?

As far as tab target issues, it's entirely optional.  One can either use the tab targer system or go after the aim stuff like in TES games according to the Alpha build play demo given to those invited to the studio a while back.

No ESO is entirely reticule based, Mouse turning, LMB to attack, RMB to block TES goodness.  It is actiony and real time.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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