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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Lets figure this out: How can we improve the community?

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258 posts found
  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/27/13 12:21:42 AM#61
Originally posted by Wighty

Trying to segregate people into different play groups seems like a good idea...

However when was the last time you were on an RP game server... Global chat is still nothing more than a glorified 4chan chatroom... The developers have no interest in enforcing this...

They don't enforce it because they don't even design for it. That's the problem. They've gone the complete opposite direction. The ability for players to break up into smaller groups of like-minded or similar interest groups is absent in most MMOs.

 

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

1/27/13 12:29:43 AM#62
Originally posted by jimdandy26

That is a piss poor argument honestly. Not much different from the ones that people were using to get DnD banned in the 80's because some kids decided to larp with real weapons and got hurt, or the ones that went "real metal" and started worshiping Satan and the like using it as a surrogate.

Aren't you trolling just a bit by calling my agrument "piss poor"?  Honestly, your analogy doesn't make any sense.  I'm talking about a serious security loophole and potential for real life harassment with that could lead to severe problems and the solution of real ID being worse off for a game.  Your analogy equivalency would only work if I said something along the lines of "you can only fix the game community by getting rid of the game itself".

You missed what I am saying. You cannot do this on a single game, or even company, level and expect it to succeed. Especially when the system that has been put in place by Blizzard is nowhere near as enforced as it should be. The internet in general needs an effective set of laws put in place to curtail the pure anarchy that currently exists. The human race in general does not have the collective maturity to deal with real freedom. Personal accountability is the only answer that has been found throughout our entire history to combat the problem that currently exists.

No, I didn't miss what you are saying.  I simply straight up don't agree with it.  How exactly does adding a Real Name ID add personal accountability?  It just removes anonymity.  This doesn't make you personally accountable, someone can still harass someone regardless of them knowing your name in real life (or any other personal information) if anything it opens you up to further harassment.  Again, the likelihood of meeting the person you are harassing is very close to nil so where is the personal accountability exactly?  I also completely disagree with your statement that personal accountability is the only answer throughout history, I think a lot of times we fingerpoint and want to place blame on people especially when tragedies happen and we look for someone or something to hold accountable and that often causes a lot of problems.  Sure sometimes personal accountability is great, but again I don't really think this is going to hold anyone personally accountable.

We see the system in place in Blizzard games.  It clearly isn't working.  Personally they lost a customer (me) when they added that system because I'm sick of Blizzard's lack of security and feeding hackers more of my information makes me more suspectible to getting robbed by them.  I haven't heard anyone in favor of the Real ID system till now in fact, and most of the people I know that talked about it seemed against it.

I suppose if companies wanted to go that route they could, but when that happens I'm personally not going to be playing games that use it.  I don't troll/grief/harass EVER in video games and just log on and want to have fun and I hate systems like this.

Responses above in yellow

Edit:  Let me add quickly that there are much better ways to hold people accountable for their actions that can fit into the game mechanics.  I still think that encouraging proper socialization and rewarding good behavior is better than focusing on punishing bad behavior, but there are plenty of ways to punish bad behavior that can fit into the game design.  For example if you have a game with open PvP you can add a bounty system that let's you personally hold people accountable when they grief you by putting a bounty on your head.  Strong moderation in game holds people accountable.  A tribunal system, while it has the potential for abuse and I don't think it's a good solution (again I believe reward > punishment), can hold people accountable.  Prevention is also good too, making it more difficult to grief in a game (again GW2 does a fair job of this, certainly not flawless) promotes good community, though obviously that's much harder to do, especially in games with heavy PvP emphasis.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Plasmicredx

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/08
Posts: 641

1/27/13 12:30:47 AM#63
Originally posted by Wighty

Using real information is the only way... I mean all your information is already out there, on Facebook, twitter, linkedin. and whatever else social media there is... why should this be any different unless you are the one that is trying to hide?

No not everyone uses real ID networking in the world and no it isn't barbaric to not use it.

Privacy is very important. So is the ability to question and criticize all forms of authority - the inability to do so is unhealthy.

  Plasmicredx

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/08
Posts: 641

1/27/13 12:33:56 AM#64
Originally posted by Wighty

Man i want what this guy is smoking...

Computer Science senior graduating in May here. I'm high on science, mathematics, and software engineering.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3546

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/27/13 1:14:11 AM#65
Originally posted by Wighty

There is a VERY simple solution to this however people will never agree to it...

 

You need to take the Anonymity out of it.  People would have to use ther real names (that they used for the credit card to be used in game.

This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility. Now I don't mean you characters name is your real name but every character would have a searchable profile with the users REAL name in it.

Too many people hide behind the wall of anonymity and use this shroud as a means to be sociopathic and wreckless to anyone around them...

You wouldn't walk down the street calling people assholes and curse out their mothers because you would probably end up with a broken jaw or worse.

I would almost guarantee that gaming communities would magically become a much better place overnight if something like this was put in and enforced. 

Not going to happen.  There are way to many down sides, that impact the real world.  Especially when you consider the uses various authoritarian governments would have for such a system.

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

1/27/13 1:14:47 AM#66
Originally posted by Wighty

This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility.

"Natural civility"?  Are you sure you don't mean "climate of fear and intimidation"?

edit: *mumbles at myself about whether being analytic and nitpicky is really the most positive contribution I can make in this thread*

 

  User Deleted
1/27/13 1:20:52 AM#67

For what it's worth, Gandhi said:

 

“If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.”

 

I think it applies to communities of all sorts: here in this forum, in our games, and in the world at large.

 

 

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3546

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/27/13 1:35:43 AM#68
Originally posted by steelheartx
Originally posted by LadyEuphei

 

How do you think we can fix the gaming community?

 

Everyone being nice to each other is the simpilist solution

Yes it is. Pity that some people actually enjoy ruining other peoples play experience.  But then Goonies will be with us always.  But one should not allow such types to change our enjoyment of the various games, or allow the fear and anger of others to dictate how we may interact.

  NorseGod

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 558

1/27/13 1:41:34 AM#69
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Wighty

This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility.

"Natural civility"?  Are you sure you don't mean "climate of fear and intimidation"?

 

That is exactly what he means.

People asking for RL information is looking for retaliation of some form. Harrassment, violence, and/or vandalizing property. I live in a Stand Your Ground State, so not much worried about the last two things happening, and I don't think I can hear drum circles out front of my property. But, it's the other people that are more at risk from some do-gooder causing harm. Funny how naughty words constitutes violence from the tolerant.

There is no other goal here so don't let them tell you otherwise. It isn't against the law to be a jerk, or make hateful comments. And no, saying naughty things anonymously in general chat to anonymous others doesn't fall under the Arizona Cyberbullying Act.

Nope, if they want to pay $15 a month to be a nanny, watching general chat and reporting everyone that doesn't go along with their political/social views, they can do it in game. They can spend their game time talking to GMs and sending chat logs and screenshots.

Or they can turn on their profanity filter, if they are that sensitive to everything around them.

Or they can use ignore.

Or they can stop going where they are not wanted and play with different people that are like-minded.

I've never personally known any paying customer banned for name calling or dirty jokes or harrassment. Usually a GM talks to you and that person moves on. They move on knowing that if they contact the "complainer", they WILL get in trouble. Sorry if I stole your satisfaction nannies.

Games have all these systems in place. Use them.

And if you don't like someone in your guild for their behavior, politics, and /or stance on social issues, kick them out.

And if you don't want a nanny in a guild causing problems, kick them out and go back to screwing off with others in peace.

Problem solved for everyone.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3050

I am more than some of my parts

1/27/13 3:02:39 AM#70
Eliminate sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 14374

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

1/27/13 3:13:57 AM#71
Originally posted by eyelolled
Make more sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.

Some but not all of this sites problems would go away if there were a greater diversity in gaming options. Namely more games like EVE, there are plenty of options when it comes to games like WOW. A few well made games that focus on player interaction/community as well as conflict like EVE, would go a long way toward appeasing many of the individuals posting here IMO. Not trying to speak for people, only offering an observation.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

1/27/13 3:21:30 AM#72
Originally posted by LadyEuphei
Originally posted by Vunak23

This community is damaged internally and bleeding from every orifice. You would need nothing short of a miracle to turn the gaming/internet community into something that could even be considered civil. 

Anonymity will always bring out the worst in people because nobody cares enough when it takes a few minutes to create a new user account.

 

Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution.

 

Spend less time looking, and more time nurturing the OBVIOUS positive aspects of humanity.

 

and if you already do this? what is the point of this thread?

 

please don't tell me that you're actually stumped on this and looking for answers. there is nothing you can do other than treat people decent and hope that they do the same.

if you can't handle the negativity, then maybe playing online games with anyone but your freinds is not a good idea for you. and i say that with sincerity. when i get tired of the way it is online, i take a break.

 

but as far as the game companies themselves; i agree with the LoL system. it was not as moderated when i started playing LoL, then i quit for months, and came back to a much nicer game. granted, i prefer the 3v3 map, which has a more chill air to it. but still, it is nice that they are trying.

i started playing SMITE, and it could really use such moderation. I hope after the game is launched (and they have a heavier playerbase) that they moderate similar to how LoL is doing now.

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1119

1/27/13 3:23:41 AM#73

Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'.

IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards.

The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc.

I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.

  User Deleted
1/27/13 3:45:05 AM#74
Originally posted by Alberel

Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'.

IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards.

The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc.

I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.

Call me cynical, but frankly that sounds more like it would perpetuate a "I'll be nice to this guy only because he gives benefits. I still don't give a shit about him because he is my ticket to loot" mentality.

  Rednecksith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1272

Bite my fiery metal ass!

1/27/13 3:52:33 AM#75
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by eyelolled
Make more sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.

Some but not all of this sites problems would go away if there were a greater diversity in gaming options. Namely more games like EVE, there are plenty of options when it comes to games like WOW. A few well made games that focus on player interaction/community as well as conflict like EVE, would go a long way toward appeasing many of the individuals posting here IMO. Not trying to speak for people, only offering an observation.

Please don't bring EVE into this. EVE's community is one of the most hostile, intolerant ones I've ever been a part of. Oh sure, they're all nice and sweet as long as you 'toe the line' when it comes to political / religious views. However, should you even hint that you believe something contrary to those views, you will be ostracized immediately. Not just that, but station camped, threatened with death, etc. In fact, I was forced to reroll because I let it slip in general chat (very amicably, and just in casual conversation with people whom I thought I knew) that I held a differing opinion.

Sad thing is, I'd formed gangs with some of these people. When I was new, they gave me money and helped me out. Yet they turned on me the second I voiced a differing opinion, without any hope of reconciliation.

Granted it's not the same as sexism / racism because I choose my own beliefs, but I sure as hell shouldn't be getting death threats because of them (unless I were a Klansman or something, although even then it's extreme).

The most damnable thing of all is that I filed tickets with CCP, and presented them with the EVEmails I got threatening my life. What did I get in return? "Oh, use the ignore function"

Yeah. Thanks a fucking lot, CCP.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3050

I am more than some of my parts

1/27/13 4:08:16 AM#76
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by eyelolled
Make more sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.

Some but not all of this sites problems would go away if there were a greater diversity in gaming options. Namely more games like EVE, there are plenty of options when it comes to games like WOW. A few well made games that focus on player interaction/community as well as conflict like EVE, would go a long way toward appeasing many of the individuals posting here IMO. Not trying to speak for people, only offering an observation.

I thought we were talking about the mmorpg community, not the mmorpg.com community.  If it was just to clean up this community I would say give the mods the ability to think and act not just based upon guidelines, but with common sense as well.  Ban people just for being negative asshats.  Screw the "I've got a right to speak my opinion" ideal, and bring in the "you've proven that you have something valuable to say, so you deserve to be heard" ideal.

 

As for the mmorpg community

I really could care less about sandbox games, it was more the perspective of removing any sort of conflict. Competition is great in a controlled environment, but it an uncontrolled environment like the internet, it tends to be pretty sloppy.  Lets face it, if some griefers computer caught fire, the people he's griefed would probably smile just a bit.  I'm not saying that they would want him to die in a fire, but they would feel better to know he got what was coming to him.  I'm also sure that is exactly what he wants as well. To be hated. He thrives on the frustration of others and then hides behind the cloak of "it's just a game, relax"

If we continue to let this sort of behavior happen, then it's obvious whats going to happen, and that's some emotionally challenged individual is going to snap and do something stupid. And afterwards, people will be talking about how it's not videogames fault, after all,  he was mentally unstable. But the problem isn't the video game, it's people. And if people don't have conflict and competition, they are alot more agreeable.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3114

1/27/13 4:13:36 AM#77

For my 2 cents..

     I know the OP doesn't want to get into "who's to blame" thread, and I will do my best not to..  hmm How to make the community better?  From where I sit, that is easy, however, it will come at a cost.. (maybe)  The tone of today's games has changed from being a true PvE enviroment to an indirect PvP enviorment..  Before I explain my solution, we must first understand the issue I'm addressing..  Most of the main MMO's today that I have played have factions.. Whether it be Horde vs Alliance, or Sith vs Republic etc etc.. Even within each faction there are guild rankings..  This isn't true PvE, but it's PvP indirectly.. It is still one side vs the other..  I don't mind that such servers or realms exist for those PvP minded players, however for someone like me, I do not want to be confined to a PvP design..

     Using WoW as the example, do I have the option as a human to gain faction with the Ogres so that one day I can walk into Ogrimaar without being KOS?  NO.. Can I group up with the undead?  NO..  Sure the game claims to be PvE, but that is only a mask for it's true "ESport" design..  Adding in features such as raid lockouts, and limits only corners the playerbase more, where many feel they have to pick and choose who they associate with..

     So, that being said.. If you want to better the community we need to start designing games to promote COMMUNITY play.. How do we (or the devs) do this?

  1. REMOVE all hard coded faction restrictions on PvE servers.. As a PvE player I want the freedom to associate whoever I want to.. The city guards might hate me, but I should also have the ability to repair that faction as well, if I so desire..
  2. REMOVE all hard coded raid limits.. Lockouts are only there as a timesink.. As a result it has caused much of the gaming community to generate cliques within guild circles..  This feature indirectly segregates the community into smaller groups.
  3. REMOVE raid limits.. This too is a continuation of the problem above.. This has turned games into esport.. My group / guild/ clique has taken down more bosses then yours, etc etc.. This is indirect PvP using PvE as the tool and mask to get away with it..
     There is more to this.. But I wish to keep this short and simple to start..  Today's PvE games need to get back to PURE PvE gaming minus the esport bs..  We need to start designing the games that promote to pull the entire communities together to defeat the DEVS, instead of this formula we have now.. Much of today's games have "exlusive" features that split the community up, instead of pulling them together..  But at what cost?  I do believe today's gaming community and society are more competitive then ever.. IF the devs do what I ask, how much of the vile player base will leave or never sign up?  I do believe it's that competitive fever that spills over into text chat and forums.. 
  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1119

1/27/13 4:16:24 AM#78
Originally posted by Yakkin
Originally posted by Alberel

Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'.

IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards.

The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc.

I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.

Call me cynical, but frankly that sounds more like it would perpetuate a "I'll be nice to this guy only because he gives benefits. I still don't give a shit about him because he is my ticket to loot" mentality.

The thing is that mentality only arose from the dungeon finder because there is no persistance to the players you group with. Every group in the dungeon finder is with a new bunch of randomers and so you never have the time to actually build a friendship with any of them. In games like FFXI and the early days of EQ2 that I mentioned you would regularly group with the same people simply because you'd likely be in the same area for a couple of days... as a result you develop a friendship and this evolves into a network of players across the game over time.

It's precisely because interaction between any two given players is so fleeting and inconsequential in modern MMOs that the general community has fallen to its current state. Build a game where any two given players will interact repeatedly over a span of time and you'll be more likely to see those players get along and less likely to see them antagonise each other (because they'll actually have to put up with the consequences).

  Sidraket

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 77

1/27/13 4:30:00 AM#79

mmo communities went downhill when people did not need to depend on their community. It used to be if you got a bad name that was it, you may as well reroll (and that meant more than a few weeks worth of work). Now you can just solo/auto-group with dungeon finders through everything.

The fix is to reverse that, it would of course cut the mmo population down to around 10% of its current size.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

1/27/13 4:31:26 AM#80

I think you need to step back, wow! The way you describe the community, makes it sound horrible!

There are simple ways to improve your gaming exp. Dont group with jerks, use your ignore list and friends list, try and develop and build your own group of like minded players.

Ignore the trolls and jerks, AND STOP SPREADING FEAR AND HATE.

There are more and more articles like this everyday, turning the gaming community into the same cesspool our society has become, full of hate and fear of each other.

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