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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

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238 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/25/13 2:38:15 PM#201
Originally posted by pmiles

Without CRZ and the Starter Edition, the World of Warcraft is indeed an empty place.  Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.  Consider that those 10 people you see out in the world are most likely from entirely different servers... so that would normally be one lone soul out in the wilderness from each server... out of 11 million subscribers... 1 player out in the world per server.  That's like only one person living in the state of Montana.  There are more NPCs roaming about out in the world than actual players... except during expansion release.

Expansion release, you're stacked on top of each other... two months after expansion release, you almost have the entire world to yourself... if it weren't for CRZ and Starter Edition. 

Would people notice if the world disappeared?  Probably.  Would they care.  Not really.  

Now, if you erased Orgrimmar and Stormwind, they would notice and get peaved that they have to park their toons in another city with access to an AH, bank, and the like.  Eventually they will have forgotten about both cities... much like they did when Outlands and WotLK came out.  Players are more leary of losing the bank and AH than they are about a parcel of land that they never travel upon.

That is what i see too. And not just in WOW. Take STO as an example .. if you do group content, you hit the 'pve' or go to the pvp zone.

Surely there are others in sector space but most don't chat/talk/care .. they may as well be NPCs.

The gameplay is all in instances.

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

1/25/13 2:47:29 PM#202
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Phelcher

Me & a dozen lifers I know are not...  (& three of us bought the GW2 Collector's Editions), so no.. at the moment when looking back at this moment it really isn't a success, now is it?  Yes.. It had great sales, but over 90% of the people who purchased the game, don't play daily.. or even weekly.


 

So? I don't play Dishonored weekly or daily .. it is a great game. I don't play LOL daily or weekly, don't tell me it is not a great success.

You have no data. The 90% number is just bogus. It boils down to "you don't like it".

 

You cannot take what I say as opinion.. just because it protects ur ego. You have to have facts to rebuttal facts. It is a widely knowb facts, that GW2 daily log in have dopped enormously. But disregarding my entire previous post, u will disregard any correction u receive. Ive already told you i read ur post history. Ur trolling is done, i can use your own posts against you, because you mix-match talking points. Ie: have no definable point, u stand for marketing.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

1/25/13 5:50:43 PM#203

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/25/13 7:26:21 PM#204
Originally posted by Squeak69

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

There are always trolls that try to disrupt .. but there are enough objective people who have fun discussions.

 

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

1/25/13 7:32:21 PM#205
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

There are always trolls that try to disrupt .. but there are enough objective people who have fun discussions.

 

I believe Squeak69 was referring to your OP.

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1965

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 7:34:54 PM#206
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

There are always trolls that try to disrupt .. but there are enough objective people who have fun discussions.

 

I believe Squeak69 was referring to your OP.

Awesome haha

El Psy Congroo

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3256

Poacher killer.

1/25/13 7:51:39 PM#207
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

There are always trolls that try to disrupt .. but there are enough objective people who have fun discussions.

 

So what do you call telling someone who wants a virtual world because they live in a place with next to no nature that they should just go camping? You were literally arguing with the OP of that thread, telling him why he didn't really need a virtual world even though that's what he liked. I'd call that pretty disruptive, know what I mean?

If you want to dish it out, you better be ready to take it.

 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

1/25/13 11:57:24 PM#208
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69

hi hi just checking in on the run away troll thread

no one killing anyone yet right . . .good

any name calling . . . . . oh well cant win them all

There are always trolls that try to disrupt .. but there are enough objective people who have fun discussions.

 

I believe Squeak69 was referring to your OP.

Awesome haha

 

Yeah, that kid is so lost... *laugh 

Anyone else notice how Narius is just going to ignore my wall of truth (post #195) and pretend logic didn't really just smack him across the face..?  But, notice how he will keep thread-crapping & going off-topic and taking about non-mmos.

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  MurlockDance

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1192

1/27/13 2:54:45 AM#209
Originally posted by sunshadow21

I have been careful, quite deliberately, to point out that many people right now would still notice a change in form. However, the shift has already started in a major segment of the MMOs being released, and while I don't think we are to the point where devs could get away with the changing the form that drastically, in function, it has already largely occurred. The world matters all of once as you level, and once you hit max level, it's dungeons and repeating the same dailies over and over; the only other option is to move on to the next game. In that time frame, nothing in the world changes, you're doing the exact same thing that thousands of people did before you, and thousands of people will do after you, and your impact on the world is zero. You can run around in it all you want, but in the end, that great open world tends to be either a hallway or a lobby itself; almost never is it designed to be a proper room that serves as an end destination itself. There are exceptions to this, to be certain, but not as many as there used to be, and most the time someone tries anything new and different, it's get shot down as not good enough, reducing the chances of devs and publishers in the future being willing to buck the greater trend.

Guild Wars has already proven that while people will scream and shout about having their world taken away, they will still play the game, and give that game their money, if it is well executed. All it would take to really push the trend is for one or two well executed game to copy that specific aspect, ignoring the initial angst about losing the world, and you'll find a lot of devs trying to jump on the band wagon of getting rid ot the open world. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, or something that is likely to happen immediately, but the fact is, we are a lot closer to it being a reality than many people here really want to admit. Functionally, a lot of games are designed in a way that an persistant open world really isn't a requirement except to appease expectations of the players; as soon as those expectations change, and that kind of change has happened before, often with startling speed, the devs aren't going to be nearly as nostalgic as the few remaining players who actually care about the world.

Again, I would like to point out that I do not agree with the trend, nor do I believe that all games are following it blindly, nor am I trying to push the OP's conclusions, but the unwillingness to acknowledge that his arguments are not as farfetched as many here are comfortable with simply speeds up the process as people avoid having the conversation when there is still time to have it.

As for your last point, that is entirely a different conversation, and I am inclined to agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that the definition of MMO has already changed on a major scale at least half a dozen times since it was first coined, and it will most certainly change again. Trying to say that gamers will never accept a truly lobby based game just because they don't right now is very dangerous. We are already to the point where changing the definition would not be all that hard if attempted by someone with sufficient clout and gamer cred, as the underlying structure already supports that particular change. If Blizzard, for example, were to implement something like that, I could safely bet that a large portion of the community would follow right along without even blinking.

You are still not showing me proof of anything, so all you are doing is speculating.

By Guild Wars, I take it you mean GW1 because GW2 went in the opposite direction and put in a vibrant world that many players can interact in.

At the heart of this discussion is the definition of what an MMORPG is. The OP is claiming that a lobby game can fill the place of MMORPGs, but what is an MMORPG ? It has to be a game that is a persistant virtual world that a player can make a character for and the player adopts that role. That means it has to have the possiblity of players being able to roleplay with each other and be immersed in that world.

To me, lobby games, even those shown here on this site, are not real MMORPGs no matter how you hack it. How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?

Anyway, this discussion is not evolving so I am done with it.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  Sidraket

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 79

1/27/13 6:40:46 AM#210
Most modern mmo players have never actually experienced a true open world mmo. So im sure most dont care about it.
  faxnadu

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 953

1/27/13 7:18:07 AM#211
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by XAPGames

Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

 

It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

 

This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

yep idd, player needs to see lots of people running around him / her otherwise its just single player game.

and it dont mean you HAVE TO party and group with people cause it is mmo.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 1:58:59 PM#212
Originally posted by m0lly
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by XAPGames

Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

 

It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

 

This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

yep idd, player needs to see lots of people running around him / her otherwise its just single player game.

and it dont mean you HAVE TO party and group with people cause it is mmo.

A city suffice. You don't need a whole virtual world for that. In fact, isn't that how it is in WOW. You see lots of people in the city, and if you want to group, you click the LFD button.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 2:01:58 PM#213
Originally posted by MurlockDance

At the heart of this discussion is the definition of what an MMORPG is. The OP is claiming that a lobby game can fill the place of MMORPGs, but what is an MMORPG ? It has to be a game that is a persistant virtual world that a player can make a character for and the player adopts that role. That means it has to have the possiblity of players being able to roleplay with each other and be immersed in that world.

To me, lobby games, even those shown here on this site, are not real MMORPGs no matter how you hack it. How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?

Anyway, this discussion is not evolving so I am done with it.

So how about not use any definition.

Let's use examples.

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in WOW?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DCUO?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DDO?

....

Now there is no confusion. And you ask "How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?" ... it is not like "immersed in the world" is the only reason to play a game, is it?

 

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

1/27/13 2:09:56 PM#214
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MurlockDance

At the heart of this discussion is the definition of what an MMORPG is. The OP is claiming that a lobby game can fill the place of MMORPGs, but what is an MMORPG ? It has to be a game that is a persistant virtual world that a player can make a character for and the player adopts that role. That means it has to have the possiblity of players being able to roleplay with each other and be immersed in that world.

To me, lobby games, even those shown here on this site, are not real MMORPGs no matter how you hack it. How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?

Anyway, this discussion is not evolving so I am done with it.

So how about not use any definition.

Let's use examples.

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in WOW?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DCUO?

WIll most players even notice/care if the virtual world is taken way in DDO?

....

Now there is no confusion. And you ask "How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?" ... it is not like "immersed in the world" is the only reason to play a game, is it?

 

Not in, for example, a football management game, no, that's a different genre. Unlike MMORPGs where the world is a major part of the genre. You should try a different genre, maybe a CORPG would suit you.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 2:15:27 PM#215
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Not in, for example, a football management game, no, that's a different genre. Unlike MMORPGs where the world is a major part of the genre. You should try a different genre, maybe a CORPG would suit you.

Many MMORPGs are already like CORPG .. why do you think i am sticking around here?

And tell me, in WOW, is the world a major part of the game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

 

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

1/27/13 3:32:56 PM#216
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Not in, for example, a football management game, no, that's a different genre. Unlike MMORPGs where the world is a major part of the genre. You should try a different genre, maybe a CORPG would suit you.

Many MMORPGs are already like CORPG .. why do you think i am sticking around here?

And tell me, in WOW, is the world a major part of the game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

 

I thought you stuck around due to your hatred of MMORPGs determined to cheerleader their destruction.

  sunshadow21

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

1/27/13 3:38:51 PM#217
Originally posted by MurlockDance

At the heart of this discussion is the definition of what an MMORPG is. The OP is claiming that a lobby game can fill the place of MMORPGs, but what is an MMORPG ? It has to be a game that is a persistant virtual world that a player can make a character for and the player adopts that role. That means it has to have the possiblity of players being able to roleplay with each other and be immersed in that world.

To me, lobby games, even those shown here on this site, are not real MMORPGs no matter how you hack it. How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?

Anyway, this discussion is not evolving so I am done with it.

I think that for some, though, there is a place for such MMOs. It's not the entire genre, to be sure, and it's not a part of the genre I would care to play, but there are those who would and denying them that kind of game is as stupid as them denying those who want open worlds the opportunity to have those kinds of games. In the end, I will be happy when WoW finally dies so we can get back to having a variety of games rather than all of these cookie cutter copycats.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 8:16:10 PM#218
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

Not in, for example, a football management game, no, that's a different genre. Unlike MMORPGs where the world is a major part of the genre. You should try a different genre, maybe a CORPG would suit you.

Many MMORPGs are already like CORPG .. why do you think i am sticking around here?

And tell me, in WOW, is the world a major part of the game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

 

I thought you stuck around due to your hatred of MMORPGs determined to cheerleader their destruction.

Hatred? Why would i hate nice fun games like PS2 and STO? Hating a genre is just illogical. Or don't get me wrong .. if MMORPGs are destroyed .. it probably would be amusing to discuss. However, given the trend of F2P, and MMOs are more like games than worlds, i doubt that is going to happen.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  1/27/13 8:18:03 PM#219
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by MurlockDance

At the heart of this discussion is the definition of what an MMORPG is. The OP is claiming that a lobby game can fill the place of MMORPGs, but what is an MMORPG ? It has to be a game that is a persistant virtual world that a player can make a character for and the player adopts that role. That means it has to have the possiblity of players being able to roleplay with each other and be immersed in that world.

To me, lobby games, even those shown here on this site, are not real MMORPGs no matter how you hack it. How can you pick up a role and be immersed in the world if all you do is sit in a lobby waiting for something to happen otherwise ?

Anyway, this discussion is not evolving so I am done with it.

I think that for some, though, there is a place for such MMOs. It's not the entire genre, to be sure, and it's not a part of the genre I would care to play, but there are those who would and denying them that kind of game is as stupid as them denying those who want open worlds the opportunity to have those kinds of games. In the end, I will be happy when WoW finally dies so we can get back to having a variety of games rather than all of these cookie cutter copycats.

There is certainly a market for such MMOs. Otherwise, why would GW1 be so successful?

And what cookie cutter copycats? Last time i look, we have a star trek MMO, a DC universe MMO, an upcoming Marvel MMO, a open world pvp MMO (PS2), a WW2 tank battle MMO (WOT), .....

SO variety is alive and well.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

1/27/13 8:25:23 PM#220
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many MMORPGs are already like CORPG .. why do you think i am sticking around here?

And tell me, in WOW, is the world a major part of the game play, in end game where most spend their time? How about DDO?

When DDO first launched, one of the major complaints were due to the fact that it felt trapped and that there was no expansive persistent world.  It failed to become more than it is now.

As for WoW, I do think the world is still a major part.  Sure there are lots who avoid it completely by just running dungeons, battlegrounds and raids but there's also lots who enjoy questing from zone to zone, exploring and randomly meeting others.

I do agree that right now, MMOs seem like lobby games.  But I see this genre go in cycles.  Perhaps that's what people want now but eventually you'll hit critical mass and people will start demanding something different.  And then the cycle repeats and we'll have more open worlds.  The same goes for theme parks and sandboxes.  Right now we are in the age of lobby/theme park MMOs but I suspect gamers will grow weary of it and will want something different.

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