Originally posted by Yakkin

Originally posted by SirFubar

P2W = pay to be more powerful than the ones who can't spend money in the cash shop. That is the real definition of P2W.

If you REALLY stretch this definition, this could also apply to paid expansions in general. If you don't pay for the expansion, your character is permalocked at a lower level, which means less stats, poorer gear, and no access to higher level raids.

Word.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Yakkin

Originally posted by SirFubar

P2W = pay to be more powerful than the ones who can't spend money in the cash shop. That is the real definition of P2W.

If you REALLY stretch this definition, this could also apply to paid expansions in general. If you don't pay for the expansion, your character is permalocked at a lower level, which means less stats, poorer gear, and no access to higher level raids.

Word.

I disagree with many of the assertions in that blog post. Look at the cost of CCP not charging for expansions, Dust being delayed a year, and World of Darkness being delayed who knows how long. As much as people are throwing fits at those greedy developers the costs of game development have skyrocketed, with the actual prices remaining largely unchanged. You still want top quality games to get published, then pony up, cause as it is the returns on investment are less then they were 5 years ago and are dropping.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Yakkin

Originally posted by SirFubar

P2W = pay to be more powerful than the ones who can't spend money in the cash shop. That is the real definition of P2W.

If you REALLY stretch this definition, this could also apply to paid expansions in general. If you don't pay for the expansion, your character is permalocked at a lower level, which means less stats, poorer gear, and no access to higher level raids.

Word.

Cash shop games don't give free expansions.   They just add more content that has been monetized and/or increased the value of the current content that is already monetized.

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Originally posted by William12

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

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Originally posted by Bossalinie @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

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Posts like Blasphim's lead me to believe it's an entitlement thing for some people.

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It is and its just like real life.  You make 35k a year so you buy a Civic.  I make 200k a year so I buy a Hummer.    Is it rig

This generation thinks life is fair its not and just like life games are not fair.   This whole im entitled to be given free stuff is whats wrong with this country what happen to the hard working american way of life ?  I guess that died in the 60s.

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I do agree that in the real world of course if you make more money, you're going to have nicer things. But in a virtual landscape, why should the size of your bank account determine how better off you are?

Trust me, I know well enough to know that life is far from fair, but life =/= video games. What generation did it become acceptable that you didn't have to work your way to things, but instead could just buy them?

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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
When we realized that most people that have money had to work for it

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Or someone in their family did. But I am not trying to say that people that have money shouldn't enjoy it. I work at a pretty decent job, and I regularly enjoy spending my paycheck :)

What I am saying is, in a multiplayer game, especially one with any sort of competition or progression, it shouldn't matter that I ride a Harley, and you ride a moped. What should matter is how much skill we have, and how much effort we are willing to put into the game.

Originally posted by Arclan

MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

Funny  you say this Most companys now what the market is and most are nearly tooled from day 1 for F2P, thats why games like SWTOR come out fast with F2P, because they know what  the market is all of them do, I know because I have worked in the industry for a long time, but why not try P2P?? They do this because it does work, F2P has flaws, you see more B2P in the coming years because F2P is flawed due to hackers, cheaters etc.. F2P makes the job way to hard for devs to manage ...This is why B2P and P2P is way better then this F2P, to many gamers want crap for free, well get a job, or get a new hobby.

This drives me nuts how gamers think games should be free good make your own and let me play it for free and after all your hard work, you will see why they charge for it, so anyways the market is turning and will turn into B2p and some will keep B2P , F2P ois not gonna work and proven time and time again.

People think when they see F2p and then say the game fails, well your wrong , its what the market is currenlty and companies need to do what the market is asking for , but as I said it won't last, we are already seeing games going B2P more and more, we will continue to see it because it works, and it helps keep good communitys.

F2P offers nothing but lettiing the idiots in and no way to stop them , and continue to plague the industry with BS.

Originally posted by Blasphim

 

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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
When we realized that most people that have money had to work for it

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Or someone in their family did. But I am not trying to say that people that have money shouldn't enjoy it. I work at a pretty decent job, and I regularly enjoy spending my paycheck :)

What I am saying is, in a multiplayer game, especially one with any sort of competition or progression, it shouldn't matter that I ride a Harley, and you ride a moped. What should matter is how much skill we have, and how much effort we are willing to put into the game.

I can understand and appreciate the thought of all being equal in an MMO format.  But then I can also understand the other point of view that being this is my downtime, my relaxation time.  I just want to play and have fun and that doesn't include grinding.  I don't consider leveling grinding necessarily.

For example.  My very first mount in WoW, way back when it was 100 gold.  I hadn't spend a single copper peice and by the time lvl 40 had it I had at 20 gold.  Took me a week of grinding and farming to get that mount and in the end I wasn't proud of the mount, it was nothing special, a mild speed increase.

Right then and there I decided I'd never play like that again, my sole reason for playing was to relax and have fun.  That waasn't relaxing or entertaining.  I'd rather have just paid for it.  Still like the rest of the game which is why I didn't quit at that time. 

Now if there was a more enjoyable way to do it then I don't consider it grinding, but that was horrible.

Originally posted by troublmaker

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Arclan

MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

You'll spend as much as you choose to, nothing or lots.  It's your choice.

More choices re good.

That's the heart of a problem.

In Alcoholic's Anonymous you are taught that when you are addicted you are powerless.  For this reason you cannot choose to quit being an alcoholic but instead you have to let another aid you with controlling this problem.

A person who has an addiction to a video game is going to uncontrollably pay out.  It will not be their choice it will be an addiction based behavior.  The fact that it is not made to feel like money only encourages this addiction.

just because they peddle that bullshit on people in AA does not make it real, or make it a good example. People choose what they do.

there is no need to defend people who have no grip on their self control.

and demonizing video games, gamers, and companies are hobbies for people with very little awareness of... well... pretty much anything.

some of you literally make me sick.

Originally posted by Darkcrystal

This drives me nuts how gamers think games should be free good make your own and let me play it for free and after all your hard work, you will see why they charge for it, so anyways the market is turning and will turn into B2p and some will keep B2P , F2P ois not gonna work and proven time and time again.

 How so? May MMOs turned F2P and are successful. More players. More money. More content.

People think when they see F2p and then say the game fails, well your wrong , its what the market is currenlty and companies need to do what the market is asking for , but as I said it won't last, we are already seeing games going B2P more and more, we will continue to see it because it works, and it helps keep good communitys.

You think it won't last? F2P has grown in the last 3 years from 39 to 50% market share. I suppose nothing last forever, but it is not going away in a year or two. 

I don't know, but Path of Exile has the best FTP model I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Arclan

MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

When old games like that go F2P, I dont see how its P2W, unless your realllllly impatient. Its the natural process for a dieing game.

But look at games like LoL and PS2, those games have a nice model, but PS2 most definitly is P2W. But who cares if you love playing it?

PS2 is the only FTP games I have ever spent money on, because I find it extremely fun to play, and I want to support it. When it comes down to it, that is all that matters.

The sad part is, there are only a few companies willing to whip out something deep, something worthy of being called an MMO. So while FTP has its place, the others seem to have been forgotton. Maybe there is not room enough?

One game company I am watching is CCP, if Dust can sell well, they will have the means to develop World of Darkness. That game just might be a true MMO, hopefully!!

Originally posted by mmoDAD

I don't know, but Path of Exile has the best FTP model I've ever seen.

This is true, but I wonder how far will bank tabs and cosmetics go?

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Yakkin

Originally posted by SirFubar

P2W = pay to be more powerful than the ones who can't spend money in the cash shop. That is the real definition of P2W.

If you REALLY stretch this definition, this could also apply to paid expansions in general. If you don't pay for the expansion, your character is permalocked at a lower level, which means less stats, poorer gear, and no access to higher level raids.

Word.

Cash shop games don't give free expansions.   They just add more content that has been monetized and/or increased the value of the current content that is already monetized.

You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

• Forsaken World: Nightfall - http://fw.perfectworld.com/nightfall
• Perfect World: Sirens of War - http://pwi.perfectworld.com/sirensofwar
• Eden Eternal: Everwinter Knights - http://www.aeriagames.com/playnow/ee/expansion
• Pirate Galaxy: Illegal Mines - http://pirategalaxy.com/battles-for-illegal-mines-the-new-conquest-system

That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

1) F2P =/= P2W, though most P2W games are F2P.

2) Most of the examples cited are games that were once sub, then went F2P/P2W.

3) The idea that players who spend money on a "free" game shouldn't be rewarded for supporting the developer and/or publisher of that game is ludicris. However, the advantage that paying customers get should not be so overwhelming that customers who can't afford to shell out $$$ every month are marginalized from the game. Balance is the key. I don't mind someone who can only play on weekends shelling out extra dough so they can level faster. They have less playing time than I do, in the long run, I'll reach end game before they do. I do mind that weekend player shelling out for op pvp gear that makes him untouchable to all but those who also shelled out.

"Hey we've got this really cool game with above average graphics, good game play, and awesome pvp. But unless you spend at least $50~100 a week you'll have no chance in pvp. So you'll have to make due with pve only."

or

"Build a character, quickly level that character to max or near max. Use that charcter as a sugar daddy for the character that you really wanted to build so you can pvp as you level and get the rewards for specific levels. Because unless you do that you'll have to spend $$$ on your character for each progressive level to have any shot what so ever of competing. That way only veteran players and players who can afford to shell out can really play. New players who can't afford to spend a lot or want to actually play their first character and learn the game; what a loser."

Originally posted by Arclan

MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

First off F2P or B2P is the norm now and the Subscription model is a dieing trend proven by market statistics.  Companies that are taking a massive hit are doing so because they released with an outdated subscription model and when they fail to bring in millions of subsciptions and lose money they eventually go F2P, and usually start thriving again.

As for P2W, that is only an issue in Asian games or small studios.  Most Triple-A studios would never concieve of P2W.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

• Forsaken World: Nightfall - http://fw.perfectworld.com/nightfall
• Perfect World: Sirens of War - http://pwi.perfectworld.com/sirensofwar
• Eden Eternal: Everwinter Knights - http://www.aeriagames.com/playnow/ee/expansion
• Pirate Galaxy: Illegal Mines - http://pirategalaxy.com/battles-for-illegal-mines-the-new-conquest-system

That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

 

Cash shop based games can release content with no upfront cost, but still require players to purchase cash shop items to take advantage of the new content.

Simplest example is adding a new tier of equipment that requires players to upgrade with cash shop items. 

How is this free content if it still requires payment to progress through it?

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Loktofeit

You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

• Forsaken World: Nightfall - http://fw.perfectworld.com/nightfall
• Perfect World: Sirens of War - http://pwi.perfectworld.com/sirensofwar
• Eden Eternal: Everwinter Knights - http://www.aeriagames.com/playnow/ee/expansion
• Pirate Galaxy: Illegal Mines - http://pirategalaxy.com/battles-for-illegal-mines-the-new-conquest-system

That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

 

 

Cash shop based games can release content with no upfront cost, but still require players to purchase cash shop items to take advantage of the new content.

 

Simplest example is adding a new tier of equipment that requires players to upgrade with cash shop items. 

 

How is this free content if it still requires payment to progress through it?

A game could do that yes but is the new tier necessary? 

Of course you have to determine if the tier is actually necessary or you just want it.  I've never had the top tier of gear in any game I've ever played and have managed to play them very well.

Has any game done that?  Made the gear absolutely necessary?

A p2p game could do that just as easily.

Originally posted by Yamota
How long? Well as long as there are jackasses willing to spend houndreds on virtual items. The whole reason F2P/P2W took of is because there are some gamers with more money than sense.

I think these games need only a very very small percentage of whales. So i doubt this phenomenon is going away any time soon. There are always some who is willing to spend a lot on a game.