Originally posted by Caliburn101

The answer is as clear as the nose on your face IF you take the time to look in a mirror.

YOU are jaded because you have been playing a particular type of game for years...

GAMES are less innovative currently due to the desire of umpteen companies to snatch a part of the cash cow WoW market without taking the kinds of risks that make accountants left eyes twitch.

These two zeitgeists have come together in the ‘perfect storm’.

BOTH will have to shift paradigm before you start feeling better.

Sorry...

It's to easy to just say someone is jaded or burnedout, sure some might. But speaking for myself I know for a fact I aint jaded.

I still enjoy and often look forward to other genre of games. This may be RTS games, FPS games, Puzzle games, Action/Adventure games.

Currently heavy into Farcry 3, but I do know I am sort of a minority in HOW I enjoy and play these games. The CoD series, while forums and what not are full with outcries I really enjoy each and every serie they put out, do I mind they are very linear, of course not as they have alway's been linear. MMORPG when started where not that linear, didn't have limited classes, limited gameplay alltogether. It actually had lots of different playstyles coming together.

But as said before stop the blame game towards developers, actually understand that much of today's MMO's scene has been asked for for years and years. Or this make believe gamecompany's only to snatch some cash from the WoW market.

I believe people who blame gamecompany's have not been with gaming aslong as they suggest, they have not experianced how frustrating it was to be constantly spammed by goldscam website, sure this still goes on today, but I have seen it less then in the old, mainly because gamecompanys have finaly put a stand towards those goldscam websites and decided that if money was to be earned by their game it should be earned by those who created/published the game. But now people start to blame the company's for taking their own money revenue?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Surprise, surprise if you made a game similar to those 9 years ago today, they would be boring and stale aswell. Sometimes its a matter of being among the first, not if you're good or anything.

That is an excellent point. Too bad nobody will listen and continue to claim the sky is falling.

I have played MANY MMOs over the years, some I have stuck with and some.....well it just took me logging in for an hour to not like.

I myself may be suffering from burn out, as I have yet to find any one game I feel the NEED to log into lately. 

And lately games released have only had partial mechanics I liked.  I'm not big into PVP gank fests, if there is a reason for PVP I am all for it, PVP just so some level 80 can come around and grief a level 10 isn't my idea of fun. 

I am big in to crafting, but lately it seems like it is click here and it's done...no thought what so ever. A system where you can combine X hilt with X blade for an invidual look, rare recipes that may lead to only a few being able to craft said item. SWG had a nice crafting system, didn't fool around much with Vanguards system but heard it was pretty nice.

Races to me are a biggie, but it seems like they are all the same.  Elf, Human, Dwarf....... Shadowbane had some fresh takes IMO. 

The lack of rewards, why do I have to look exactly like everyone else.  "Oh I see from your gear you also beat the caves of crap!" This leaves me a little depressed, especially when they claim to unique looks...make your toon they way you want it.

The fighting mechanics are just so unimaginitive also.  By dumbing down the system so everyone can be the same, it's just off-putting.  It seems like skills are just lack luster rehashes.

Again these are just my opinions.

Originally posted by zanebergeron

The lack of rewards, why do I have to look exactly like everyone else.  "Oh I see from your gear you also beat the caves of crap!" This leaves me a little depressed, especially when they claim to unique looks...make your toon they way you want it.

I take issue with this. This is just not true for many games. STO and DCUO are two good examples. In STO, you can turn off the look of the gear, and wear a uniform you design. There is a similar function in DCUO.

Heck, even in WOW, you can do transmorfigation to customize your look.

The fighting mechanics are just so unimaginitive also.  By dumbing down the system so everyone can be the same, it's just off-putting.  It seems like skills are just lack luster rehashes.

 

Which game are you talking about? I find plenty of games with fun combat mechanics. Diablo 3 (though not a MMO) is a good example. There are multiple viable builds for each class .. even different builds for different purposes, and you can do lock-down cc, or range kiting dps .. just in a wiz.

STO is another good example. The space ship combat is pretty fun. There is a meta game of how you configure your weapons, and you can fight broadside by using phasers on a cruiser, or maneuver hit and run with canons and topedoes on a escort.

I suppose your definition of fun is different from others but i wouldn't call games with extensive discussions and disagreement of how to optimize combat "dumb down" just because you don't like it, or lack the aptitude to understand the details.

 

 

Originally posted by zanebergeron

I have played MANY MMOs over the years, some I have stuck with and some.....well it just took me logging in for an hour to not like.

I myself may be suffering from burn out, as I have yet to find any one game I feel the NEED to log into lately. 

And lately games released have only had partial mechanics I liked.  I'm not big into PVP gank fests, if there is a reason for PVP I am all for it, PVP just so some level 80 can come around and grief a level 10 isn't my idea of fun. 

I am big in to crafting, but lately it seems like it is click here and it's done...no thought what so ever. A system where you can combine X hilt with X blade for an invidual look, rare recipes that may lead to only a few being able to craft said item. SWG had a nice crafting system, didn't fool around much with Vanguards system but heard it was pretty nice.

Races to me are a biggie, but it seems like they are all the same.  Elf, Human, Dwarf....... Shadowbane had some fresh takes IMO. 

The lack of rewards, why do I have to look exactly like everyone else.  "Oh I see from your gear you also beat the caves of crap!" This leaves me a little depressed, especially when they claim to unique looks...make your toon they way you want it.

The fighting mechanics are just so unimaginitive also.  By dumbing down the system so everyone can be the same, it's just off-putting.  It seems like skills are just lack luster rehashes.

 

Again these are just my opinions.

I find that your complaints about crafting are right on, crafting seems to be something that a lot of devs don't really put much thought into anymore. It is partly because, in my view, to get it right, it is not just about the craft itself but what social impact it has and what the player economy is like. A lof of the more recent games just put in an AH and forget about the player economy it seems.

What I loved about SWG's system was how fully fleshed out it was but it wasn't just the crafting itself. There was the trade aspect where you had to organize your homes/shops, set up your vendors, advertize your wares, decorate your shops to make a lasting impression, etc. Since tradeskills were reliant on other people, like armor crafters required scouts to get them hides, bone, etc., it meant that you were also incorporated into the player community. SWG was one of the few games where you could just be a crafter and you were considered a valuable person to have around even with 0 combat skills, and it was also fun. I didn't feel like I was hurting my character when I became a crafter in SWG.

There are very few games where I feel that way anymore. EVE is really about the only one.

Agreed with races, it would be nice to see some new ones, and as a female gamer, I am pretty sick of how most female characters look in games. I would like a change in not just how female bodies tend to be shaped, but also what the gear looks like. No more bikini and miniskirt stuff please... it is insulting and means that I am guaranteed to play only male characters in the game.

I don't really agree with what you said about customized appearance in all games. I think that is one area where there has been a lot of improvement actually.

Combat mechanics, well there again I disagree with you. TERA, EVE, WoW, ToR, GW2... they don't really play the same way do they ? I don't think so....

Developers haven't been taking many risks with MMORPGs lately.

I think Tera and B&S offer quite unique combat systems, I'd mention GW2 but somehow that game was a complete wreck as a MMORPG. Archeage will be brining a lot of different endgame content, while being quite common MMORPG in every other way. FFXIV is a mmorpg genre of it's own but the latest wowization might go bit too far but I'm still excited about it.

TESO is probably the next innovator in sense of taking everything popular from other MMORPGs, blending them with fun and intuitive combat system and a meaningful RvR.

But I do think the industry has learned their lesson and the traditional MMORPG is a thing of the past, we'll see more in upcoming years.

Originally posted by bcbully
Play Age of Wushu OP, problem solved. Everyday you will do things you have never done before in an mmorpg.

Such as?

Originally posted by Pala

Here is a perfect example how it happens:

I play world of tanks for a couple of years now and arty is dangeruous because it can hit you from above but you need to be spotted and out in the open for them to do it, but you get thousands of newer players complaining that arty is unfair, that it doesnt work like that in real life etc etc. So what Wargames does is implement a  nerf after nerf to arty to a point where hardly anyone plays it. OK listening to the customer right?

Well, essentially what happens is that light scout tanks with vision are no loger needed as there is no job for them, medium flanking tanks who try to find and kill arty become pointless also and all you are left with is heavys and tank destroyers - armor vs penetration. So you are effectively left with a dumbed down version of the game, with lots of gameplay elements taken out.

However max number of players online is growing and hitting new records!

As a company WG is doing the right thing and making more money, people who enjoy complex and more involving gameplay are losing out but they seem to be a minority anyway. This seems to be the general trend in MMOs from my perspective.

 

 

A remarkably insightful and succinct appraisal of the issue.

Bravo!

Originally posted by Quirhid

Surprise, surprise if you made a game similar to those 9 years ago today, they would be boring and stale aswell. Sometimes its a matter of being among the first, not if you're good or anything.

Actually first to market doesn't seem to matter much anymore.  It's first to follow up that usually does well.  In a lot of ways first to market is a disadvantage.  You put all the money and effort into R&D while the next guy just has to copy you and refine your idea.  You took the risk breaking new ground, the next guy just has to wait to see if you succeed.

Originally posted by GoldenArrow

Developers haven't been taking many risks with MMORPGs lately.

I think Tera and B&S offer quite unique combat systems, I'd mention GW2 but somehow that game was a complete wreck as a MMORPG. Archeage will be brining a lot of different endgame content, while being quite common MMORPG in every other way. FFXIV is a mmorpg genre of it's own but the latest wowization might go bit too far but I'm still excited about it.

TESO is probably the next innovator in sense of taking everything popular from other MMORPGs, blending them with fun and intuitive combat system and a meaningful RvR.

But I do think the industry has learned their lesson and the traditional MMORPG is a thing of the past, we'll see more in upcoming years.

uh?

Big financial risk to dump 200M into TOR to do voice overs, and it does not pan out.

Big financial risk to link a tv show to a MMOFPS (defiance).

Big risk to link a FPS to an existing MMO (Dust & Eve).

If those are not risks, what are risks?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GoldenArrow

Developers haven't been taking many risks with MMORPGs lately.

I think Tera and B&S offer quite unique combat systems, I'd mention GW2 but somehow that game was a complete wreck as a MMORPG. Archeage will be brining a lot of different endgame content, while being quite common MMORPG in every other way. FFXIV is a mmorpg genre of it's own but the latest wowization might go bit too far but I'm still excited about it.

TESO is probably the next innovator in sense of taking everything popular from other MMORPGs, blending them with fun and intuitive combat system and a meaningful RvR.

But I do think the industry has learned their lesson and the traditional MMORPG is a thing of the past, we'll see more in upcoming years.

uh?

Big financial risk to dump 200M into TOR to do voice overs, and it does not pan out.

Big financial risk to link a tv show to a MMOFPS (defiance).

Big risk to link a FPS to an existing MMO (Dust & Eve).

If those are not risks, what are risks?

I agree those that you mention are risks. I think good steps. I guess what I am looking for is the Next WoW for say in its hayday. I know it is not going ot happen any time soon.

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GoldenArrow

Developers haven't been taking many risks with MMORPGs lately.

I think Tera and B&S offer quite unique combat systems, I'd mention GW2 but somehow that game was a complete wreck as a MMORPG. Archeage will be brining a lot of different endgame content, while being quite common MMORPG in every other way. FFXIV is a mmorpg genre of it's own but the latest wowization might go bit too far but I'm still excited about it.

TESO is probably the next innovator in sense of taking everything popular from other MMORPGs, blending them with fun and intuitive combat system and a meaningful RvR.

But I do think the industry has learned their lesson and the traditional MMORPG is a thing of the past, we'll see more in upcoming years.

uh?

Big financial risk to dump 200M into TOR to do voice overs, and it does not pan out.

Big financial risk to link a tv show to a MMOFPS (defiance).

Big risk to link a FPS to an existing MMO (Dust & Eve).

If those are not risks, what are risks?

I agree those that you mention are risks. I think good steps. I guess what I am looking for is the Next WoW for say in its hayday. I know it is not going ot happen any time soon.

I think the nature of risks is that you don't know if it is going to pan out. If it is a sure thing, it is not a risk.

So we won't know .. until the risk pan out, and the next WOW arrives. Before that, everything just look .. risky.

As I said at the bottom of my post, these were my opinions and they aren't the same as everyones.

I may like X game, where you hate X.

Yes I agree they have moved forward in certain areas, look at what has happened (Not that I thought WoW had a great battes)But now it is dumbed down, at X level you get X Skill!  

To clarify what I mean is that each roles' skills are not much different from player to player. As for GW2 while I do still play it, and while the skills are ok, there isn't much difference besides what weapons you choose and the few traits.  Normally I prefer a warrior class, in GW2 I play an Ele. as my first and liked it enough to play it to 80.

Tera the combat mechanics were cool, the game itself was too linear. I didn't like being stuck as a lancer or staff user only.

I did like the customization of DCUO, I liked collecting items and making myself look how I wanted. Same with CoH and a few others.  Tera all the females and HA! even the males look they they should work at a brothel. I guess we just see females in fantasy to be tough enough not to need full plate amor, a chainmail bikini and bra are enough protection.

I guess I am just needing a good fantasy sandbox.  Archeage is a ways off, but there are a few I am watching.

Originally posted by zanebergeron

As I said at the bottom of my post, these were my opinions and they aren't the same as everyones.

I may like X game, where you hate X.

 

Yes I agree they have moved forward in certain areas, look at what has happened (Not that I thought WoW had a great battes)But now it is dumbed down, at X level you get X Skill!  

To clarify what I mean is that each roles' skills are not much different from player to player. As for GW2 while I do still play it, and while the skills are ok, there isn't much difference besides what weapons you choose and the few traits.  Normally I prefer a warrior class, in GW2 I play an Ele. as my first and liked it enough to play it to 80.

Tera the combat mechanics were cool, the game itself was too linear. I didn't like being stuck as a lancer or staff user only.

I did like the customization of DCUO, I liked collecting items and making myself look how I wanted. Same with CoH and a few others.  Tera all the females and HA! even the males look they they should work at a brothel. I guess we just see females in fantasy to be tough enough not to need full plate amor, a chainmail bikini and bra are enough protection.

 

I guess I am just needing a good fantasy sandbox.  Archeage is a ways off, but there are a few I am watching.

Well I know when I see that I'm certainly distracted long enough for them to get one swing in :)

Originally posted by Isturi

Im sorry but it seems that MMO games in general have fizzeled for me. Nothing new to explore to excite me to make me jump out of my chair and say OMG this game has my attention for several years to come.

Welcome to 5+ years ago.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid

Surprise, surprise if you made a game similar to those 9 years ago today, they would be boring and stale aswell. Sometimes its a matter of being among the first, not if you're good or anything.

Actually first to market doesn't seem to matter much anymore.  It's first to follow up that usually does well.  In a lot of ways first to market is a disadvantage.  You put all the money and effort into R&D while the next guy just has to copy you and refine your idea.  You took the risk breaking new ground, the next guy just has to wait to see if you succeed.

There's a lot of truth in that, I agree. The first attempt is rarely the best one. That is why I wrote "among the first" instead of "the first".

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Isturi
 

I think the nature of risks is that you don't know if it is going to pan out. If it is a sure thing, it is not a risk.

So we won't know .. until the risk pan out, and the next WOW arrives. Before that, everything just look .. risky.

And the risks are almost universally rejected by existing players...why can't we have Vanilla back? This was a great game before ToA. Damn them and their NGE.

MMO players talk a good game with regard to wanting innovation. But they don't walk the walk.

I think developers should NOT listen to the fans. Whiny moaning gits! It never works, all changes made to my favourite MMOs to please the players generall in the end ruined the game for me.

I dont want balance, or easy stuff, or even no bugs, I want challenging and fun gameplay otherwise all of that is irrelevant.