Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by techknowmama

Originally posted by steamtank

so it's are own fault we get harrassed ? because we chose to make a female character or a female name? so if I make a male character with a manly name I ll be safe right? .... but wait ....what happens when I need to use voice communication to warn my team mates their geting flanked, or when leading a raid ?

wow! just wow!

dont game with people on your team that care if you have a vagina or penis?

 

just a theory

I think you missed the point?

but thats just a theory to

no its exactly the point.

If I am in a guild with a bunch of teenagers, i expect them to act like teenagers.

I dont join a guild and expect them to change because of who I am.

 

Since when raiding I tend to enjoy a family friendly atmosphere because I think it promotes the best raid experience I dont join guilds that harbor many e-peen'ers.

If you are in a guild, and they dont respect you, you are in the wrong guild. They dont HAVE to change, you are choosing to associate with people who don't value you.

 

Im not going to have pity for anyone who subjects themselves to such treatment and then says I am a bad person for not stopping it. This game is their safe place as much as it is yours. MMO's are a beautiful thing, they are so big there is a guild for EVERYONE. but not every guild is for you, nor should it be.

 

You have ignore functions for any ingame chat, and for something above and beyond the realm of sanity you have report features.

 

In a video game you allow yourself to be a victim, its not the real world, you can choose who is around you.

You've hit the nail on the head, here.

It's not about civility, it's about power.  The moral supremacy of women is a vestige of the past, and society should be unfettered from those shackles as surely as any other "old world" social ideology.

Equality would dictate equal access and equal opportunity.  In the case of gaming, mission accomplished.  But, that's not enough.  This is a case where a group believes that they are entitled to special treatment, and should have the authority to force others to change their behavior to whatever suits them.

Make no mistake, that entitlement is about power.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by techknowmama

Originally posted by steamtank

so it's are own fault we get harrassed ? because we chose to make a female character or a female name? so if I make a male character with a manly name I ll be safe right? .... but wait ....what happens when I need to use voice communication to warn my team mates their geting flanked, or when leading a raid ?

wow! just wow!

dont game with people on your team that care if you have a vagina or penis?

 

just a theory

I think you missed the point?

but thats just a theory to

no its exactly the point.

If I am in a guild with a bunch of teenagers, i expect them to act like teenagers.

I dont join a guild and expect them to change because of who I am.

 

Since when raiding I tend to enjoy a family friendly atmosphere because I think it promotes the best raid experience I dont join guilds that harbor many e-peen'ers.

If you are in a guild, and they dont respect you, you are in the wrong guild. They dont HAVE to change, you are choosing to associate with people who don't value you.

 

Im not going to have pity for anyone who subjects themselves to such treatment and then says I am a bad person for not stopping it. This game is their safe place as much as it is yours. MMO's are a beautiful thing, they are so big there is a guild for EVERYONE. but not every guild is for you, nor should it be.

 

You have ignore functions for any ingame chat, and for something above and beyond the realm of sanity you have report features.

 

In a video game you allow yourself to be a victim, its not the real world, you can choose who is around you.

 

You've hit the nail on the head, here.

It's not about civility, it's about power.  The moral supremacy of women is a vestige of the past, and society should be unfettered from those shackles as surely as any other "old world" social ideology.

Equality would dictate equal access and equal opportunity.  In the case of gaming, mission accomplished.  But, that's not enough.  This is a case where a group believes that they are entitled to special treatment, and should have the authority to force others to change their behavior to whatever suits them.

Make no mistake, that entitlement is about power.

Agree entirely.  

Susan has every right to be angry about sexism. It's clearly an important issue to her.

We also shouldn't disregard her concerns simply because we do not see what it is she is talking about. We should try to zoom out and look at the entire issue before passing judgement on anything that is said about it.

I myself do not believe the problem is as broad and general as Susan seems to make out, and the article she has written is guilty of hypocrisy in many ways. I also feel like I'm being tarnished with the same brush as the minority of men guilty of such antisocial behaviour; that's offensive.

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Susan has every right to be angry about sexism. It's clearly an important issue to her.

We also shouldn't disregard her concerns simply because we do not see what it is she is talking about. We should try to zoom out and look at the entire issue before passing judgement on anything that is said about it.

I myself do not believe the problem is as broad and general as Susan seems to make out, and the article she has written is guilty of hypocrisy in many ways. I also feel like I'm being tarnished with the same brush as the minority of men guilty of such antisocial behaviour; that's offensive.

Let's be honest about it, the article is a rant based on very limited 'evidence'.  It is an issue that I have never encountered outside of the normal realms of trolling, which happens to everyone.  

Ms. Jonte,

I think I must live in my online games in a place where I don't hear all of these things.  I know they exist, I've heard too much about them for them not to exist, and I have told a few gamers making sexist or angry-about-women comments to cool it, were I in a group with them.  However, unless I am utterly ignorant and obtuse, I don't hear more than the off-the-wall comment with long periods of "cool, everyone's gaming" in-between.

With the fact this does exist, I can only say that, as with my Sociology class in college, right now, that I am shocked.  I was thinking I had a racist streak, a sexist streak, etc., but to hear it discussed in class, I can clearly say that I would be considered a religious defender of the races and sexes.  When it comes to homosexuality, not so much, but with the races and sexes, I am appalled at the things I've heard over the last few weeks.

When I am in the game, I am there to game, period.  I'm not there to bash anyone, period, and I will defend ANYONE, woman, man, black, asian, white, etc., ad nauseum who is being picked on, unless I recognize that it's just a good ol' fashioned ribbing, and then I'm more likely to drive on than get involved.

Rest assured, it is not ALL men that are doing this.  These games are about moving the mouse around and pushing buttons, more often than not, and the tactics and strategy of the game is not, necessarily, all that robust.  So, any PERSON who commits to doing the sorts of things you're talking about, shows in general that they are not all that bright, that they need a life, and are not really any sort of Human being I want to hang around with.

Perhaps my ignorance of these things, in general, puts me in the unique place of never NEEDING to commit to them to cultivate a false sense of bravado.

Originally posted by Tithenon

Ms. Jonte,

 

I think I must live in my online games in a place where I don't hear all of these things.  I know they exist, I've heard too much about them for them not to exist, and I have told a few gamers making sexist or angry-about-women comments to cool it, were I in a group with them.  However, unless I am utterly ignorant and obtuse, I don't hear more than the off-the-wall comment with long periods of "cool, everyone's gaming" in-between.

 

With the fact this does exist, I can only say that, as with my Sociology class in college, right now, that I am shocked.  I was thinking I had a racist streak, a sexist streak, etc., but to hear it discussed in class, I can clearly say that I would be considered a religious defender of the races and sexes.  When it comes to homosexuality, not so much, but with the races and sexes, I am appalled at the things I've heard over the last few weeks.

 

When I am in the game, I am there to game, period.  I'm not there to bash anyone, period, and I will defend ANYONE, woman, man, black, asian, white, etc., ad nauseum who is being picked on, unless I recognize that it's just a good ol' fashioned ribbing, and then I'm more likely to drive on than get involved.

 

Rest assured, it is not ALL men that are doing this.  These games are about moving the mouse around and pushing buttons, more often than not, and the tactics and strategy of the game is not, necessarily, all that robust.  So, any PERSON who commits to doing the sorts of things you're talking about, shows in general that they are not all that bright, that they need a life, and are not really any sort of Human being I want to hang around with.

 

Perhaps my ignorance of these things, in general, puts me in the unique place of never NEEDING to commit to them to cultivate a false sense of bravado.

There was really no need for that, surely?

What I don't understand is why people get all bent out of shape because a few vocal jerks venting their nonsense on the net.  I am not making excuses for their crudeness, but their entire intent is for you to pay attention to them.  The best medicine in this case is just to ignore them.  If you make it personel, you are just achieving their goal.

Kind of like that religious group that pickets military funerals, the best thing that anyone can do is to ignore them.  If they were not given all the attention the media gives them, they would soon stop.

You cannot stop people from being jerks, but if no one pays attention to them their intent will be defeated.

And after a mountain of comments I have to say that, from all the game sites I usually read, mmorpg.com has the most uninformed community so far.

Sorry dudes, but sexism is an issue. And it's not light or a thing that happens in isolated cases. And it has been debated deeply throughout last year in a way that if you still think it's not an issue, you've probably been living under a rock or at least haven't been reading any gaming sites. The numbers, debates, ideas, points, data, episodes are all there for everyone and pratically everywhere.

Anyway, let's see if this new writer can change some minds around here with time.

Originally posted by liadz

And after a mountain of comments I have to say that, from all the game sites I usually read, mmorpg.com has the most uninformed community so far.

Sorry dudes, but sexism is an issue. And it's not light or a thing that happens in isolated cases. And it has been debated deeply throughout last year in a way that if you still think it's not an issue, you've probably been living under a rock or at least haven't been reading any gaming sites. The numbers, debates, ideas, points, data, episodes are all there for everyone and pratically everywhere.

Anyway, let's see if this new writer can change some minds around here with time.

Hey there. We are some that are thinking a bit futher than "oh, Ivent seen this so called sexism. Its not a physcial thing so its not real! And btw, why dont we talk about men issues!!"  I for one have stoped to engange is discussions about gender issues on forum mainly because of what we can see in this thread :)

I dont believe that articles as this will change opinions. Information, solid arguments wont bit on opinions that many here have. Its a lost cause. But the context is slowly changing. The industry that are producing games are slowly understanding that by alienating a whole group (women) they are losing many customers...so we will see changes that will solve some alarming gender issues. 

Originally posted by Thebigchin

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Mueslinator

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.

 

It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.

because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.

And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.

 

How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.

 

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said woman dislikes you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

Basic human nature. Its as true for women as it is for men. Its down at the biological instinct level.  In most people, they aren't even aware of it.  You see the same thing in most other animals though out the world. Humans are part of that world, and what makes us the dominant species is our intelligence and the tools that flow from that.  But underneath of all that, we have the same biological drives.

Those color and influence much of our perceptions and interactions.  The two primary fundamental factors in human interactions are sex and power. Just about everything else flows from those two.

We are also a social animal, and we have elvolved to rely upon our pack to warn us of danger and assist us in hunting and gathering.  So your argument is slightly flawed.  

Not in the least. It addresses the reason for the observed behavior.  The social aspect is part of the development cycle as well.  Sex and power are inherently part of that social dynamic.

Originally posted by techknowmama

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Derros

Originally posted by Istavaan
Maybe women should stop blaming men for everything and take responsibility for their own actions. 

So women are responsible for being treated as second class citizens in some online/geek areas, gaming being one, how so?  By being born?

 

Ah I know the response, ive seen it to many times: "Well if they didnt keep bringing it up, it wouldnt happen! people are reacting! bla bla bla feminist agenda!"

 

yep if we just ignore a problem, it goes right away

 

Lets be honest now... brutally honest...   This is the internet, and MMOs and online games gives all of us 2 things. 1 is Anonymity... the other is Choice.

 

I've created female avatars... and I've played them.  I didn't feal like anyone treated me any more different.  I could have pretended that I was a girl.. but that would serve the desired purpose that I wanted special treatment. 

 

In online games more then any other facet.. women have the chance to be treated truly as equals... with nobody ever having to know they are women.   In comparison though,  sexism aside, racial stereotypes are just as prevalent.  For example, having a Screen Name with predominantly jewish connotations may reveal a much stronger and vile bias from an even worse crowd.  

 

I think pretending like women are suddenly victims in a world where they get to choose to be whatever they want, and still end up feeling like they are overly sexualized or are discriminated against - even though they choose their characters, they choose what they say, and they choose what and how they play, shows some naivety.

so it's are own fault we get harrassed ? because we chose to make a female character or a female name? so if I make a male character with a manly name I ll be safe right? .... but wait ....what happens when I need to use voice communication to warn my team mates their geting flanked, or when leading a raid ?

wow! just wow!

You made the choice to play with that team.  If you end up playing with misogynistic asshats thats your fault not theirs.  You can choose to be whatever you want to be in an online game, and block those you don't like.  Its the same with racial stereotypes, or nationalistic views.  I've played on games before with people from europe who insulted me for being "american" simply because of my accent.   I chose to block them, not suffer abuse...  or.. I could always play the victim.

We log into games to play in a fantasy world,  but we have a choice in our own lives not to live in one.  This is an online game, not your job where you don't have a block button, or a random encounter on the street where you can get physically harrassed.  Its in an environment where clicking the "block" button and the "report" button will have swift and immediate results.

Originally posted by liadz

And after a mountain of comments I have to say that, from all the game sites I usually read, mmorpg.com has the most uninformed community so far.

Sorry dudes, but sexism is an issue. And it's not light or a thing that happens in isolated cases. And it has been debated deeply throughout last year in a way that if you still think it's not an issue, you've probably been living under a rock or at least haven't been reading any gaming sites. The numbers, debates, ideas, points, data, episodes are all there for everyone and pratically everywhere.

Anyway, let's see if this new writer can change some minds around here with time.

"Uninformed"? Don't you mean un indoctrinated into the PC perspective on this issue?  Many people find the attitude and approach of the PC brigade to use one of their favorite words "offensive".  WAY too many people are using these various "ism"  labels, to advance their own personal agendas.

Yes, "sexism" does exist (and will likely always do so), and yes, some aspects need to be confronted, and those expressing them shunned, or other wise dealt with.  But lets not make it some type of Holy Crusade and turn it into yet another Them vs US mud slinging fest. That doesn't help either side to understand each other, and plays into the hands of those using this to advance their own agendas.

If you understand the various tactics being used, you would realize just how much control is being exercised over the public discussion of various issues ("sexism" being just one of many).  Just one of those tactics is known as framing (in this context framing the debate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)

From the Wiki.

"In the context of politics or mass media communication, a frame defines the packaging of an element of rhetoric in such a way as to encourage certain interpretations and to discourage others."

By determining what the "acceptable" bounds of a given topic is, one can limit the scope of any "reasonable" discussion of that topic.  Notice the weasle words "acceptable" and "reasonable"?  Who gets to define those?  That all ties back to those who have influence and power within the various social systems involved.

"Sexism" like many of the other "isms" are examples of real problems, that do exist, and need to be dealt with.  But wise people do not go about that in a fashion that is bound to be counter productive.  Nor do they obsess about all aspects of the various problems or give them equal priority. 

Lets all attempt to treat each other as people, and leave those with a chip on one or both shoulders to stew in their own anger.  Perhaps they will tire of that self imposed burden over time, and realize that there are better ways of dealing with the problems.

Originally posted by Cameron27

Originally posted by jimdandy26
Wow, way to generalize an extremely complex topic! Kudos!

I completely agree. The more I read the article, the consistent application of Men vs. Women just made this article into flamebait. The men who read this are going to have some sense of self-worth and be put off by the article to some degree just because it isn't specific enough. It's as if a news article generalized all of internet culture to be like 4chan.  Besides, let's be honest the majority of multiplayer games outside of MMO's pit people against one another. Those circumstances aren't known for bringing out the best in people in the first place.

I understand that. and that is where I'd draw the line. After competing it needs to be civil. Before and after. Insults or mocking is slung  in Halo or any PvP all the time. To disencourage the enemy. Normally just pisses them off but whatever. Another problem with sexism is a women's fault. When you say you're a feminist sometimes we go 'Oh god, No!' Because of the image potrayed br SEXIST females who think they're better than Men. Sexism works both ways ladies. I personalty PREFER to play with women because they tend to be easier going than the males I've met. But when push comes to shove. If you're a decent person. I'll play with you. Not everyone has this view. Than we got the fact of Trolls and griefing on the internet in some circles is a POSITIVE thing. Women: Look out for those cirlces. They're no good and if you want to complain about 'sexism' in them it's like complaining about the Racism in a Nazi convention. It's redundant. You need to fight for your rights and us men need to fight for ours. We need to be equal and that will be a long time. When all men and women decide to stop saying one sex is better. Than all of that sexim will start to dissolve. But over all. The blame goes like this

75% Male arrogance

25% Women Arrogance

After all .We men did run your lives for a good few centuries so it's kind of a cultural thing that you're not fully accepted yet. And it takes decades to change a culture.

Originally posted by Drolkin

Why should a person stand up and say their not going to take it anymore?  It is that exact line of thinking that is a part of the overall problem.  If people practiced chivalry towards one another there would be no reason to have to stand up and defend yourself, stop putting the blame on the victim by saying their not doing enough to defend themself and start focusing on the real problem.

 

Thanks.

Chivalry as a broad concept is an ideal. Even when chivalry was big amongst knights, they were often not genuinely chivalrous towards one and other, and there were very few knights in the land ;D It is a rarity now as it was then ;P Also, it is technically a masculine system of morality.

I also think that people could do with practicing some restraint and honest introspection in concern to such topics as sexism, racism, war, religion, politics etc, etc, probably before they try to express themselves with any degre of authority. The justification for the conclusion is as important as the conclusion itself. They should also realise that other people are free to come to their own conclusions, and no amount of dogmatic and rageful hypocrisy will alter that fact.

I, for example, believe that Susan is right to express displeasure over sexism. It is indeed a negative trait in our society, and it's something that we are broadly attempting to deal with. If you actually look at how far we've come over the last 100 years in concern to such issues as sexism, we live in a far more tolerant, open, free and equal society (globally) than we ever have at any other point in human history. To apply such broad strokes as to paint all men as chauvinistic and sexist is at once an insult to men who aren't that way inclined, and also a huge devaluation of the things we have achieved and the progress we have made.

I do not agree that it is prevalent in gaming circles any longer, and I also do not agree with her use of the word "tsunami". It is hyperbole at its finest. A tsunami is a significant natural disaster. When a tsunami impacts human civilization, it destroys the lives of thousands upon thousands of people. In recent memory, tsunamis and tidal waves have been significant, destructive and deadly forces of nature. The metaphor suggests that sexism impacts gaming with a similar degree of force; it clearly does not.

Sadly there are - on both sides - sensationalist and vocal elements to the sexism debate. #1ReasonWhy, for example, consists of a hell of a lot of "uh man bad" type content. More prevalent and centrist anti-sexism groups are largely encouraging people to be wary of #1ReasonWhy, which is quite telling.

Sexism is something we should deal with, just like most of the other isms, and that process is "ongoing". Articles like this, where the writer broadly paints all men with the same brush and plays up the severity of the problem to doubtful proportions, are not doing that process any favours. More balanced consideration and reasonable discussion, and less outraged outbursts and sensationalism is in order, I think.

Originally posted by dotdotdash
 

Have to ask, but is it "U"?  Am I right in that being what you meant?  Just curious hehe.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by dotdotdash
 

Have to ask, but is it "U"?  Am I right in that being what you meant?  Just curious hehe.

Yup, you got it ;D

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by dotdotdash
 

Have to ask, but is it "U"?  Am I right in that being what you meant?  Just curious hehe.

Yup, you got it ;D

lol I actually just now noticed your avatar once you replied.  I came into the thread again after I saw your username had made the last post.

Anyways, that's pretty sweet :)

Moral of the thread - Sexism Bad!  Creativity Good!

Treat them with respect bros. they don't want special treatment they have always wanted to be seen as an equals, which they are in everyway and many of them may even be better at gaming then guys. we need to change our thinking about female gamers, and we need to understand they just want play like us and have fun gaming and being competitive.

The problems come when young men who have always competed for a females attention start an all out "show us your picture or it's a lie" in ventrilio war. these guys you have to avoid and NOT show them your picture. I have seen female gamers leave guilds once the guys knew they were female. it's sad but at some point if you progress in a guild you are going to have to get on voice chat and the truth comes out.

which really should not make a difference in how they as a guild member should be viewed/traeted. if you nerds ever want to see on a dating site.."loves to PVP and loves online gaming' in a females profile stop making them have to regret being honest in an online game.

My girlfriend is a gamer she can talk with me about almost any subject on gaming. she runs a guild, she is pure awesome at raiding. but she had to go through allot of crap to be the best and earn respect as a gamer from the guys in the guild, which if it was another dude, she wouldn't have had to do if she was male.

Respect them, stop trying to date them or get pictures, it's just sad to watch my fellow males devolve back to our knucle dragger status.

Originally posted by LordZeik
I don't know whats worse. Trying to turn mmorpg.com into a platform for the lifetime network. Or attempting to find respect on the internet....Seriously, you don't find people writing articles on a girl showing off her body for the price of gear or equipment.... It doesn't mean all of them do it. But, based on the standards we're judging people off of several incidents. Should I be inclined to believe that they all do? Women get better treatment than men in mmorpgs. (if the community isn't volatile, i .e not talking about xbox live shenanigans.) Whats the topic going to be next week? How the gay/lesbian rights movement in pc games isn't making enough progress?

I think that was last weeks topic, maybe the week before. Check the SWTOR MakeB threads.