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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect

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234 posts found
  Coman

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/29/04
Posts: 1957

1/26/13 10:14:20 AM#141
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Thebozz
Men don't really have a problem with women gaming, creating games, or being geeks.  Men have a problem with women invading their men time.  Every now and then guys like to be crude and vulgar.  They like to belch and talk sports and fart.  Men don't like women invading man time.  Men like to have activities they can do that their women won't want to participate in.  Everytime one of those activities sees more and more women, men react because they fear their women will also join the activity.  They fear losing man time. 

 

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

I am afraid I am no man then because none of those thing in his list appeal to me...not even a little. Beside that if you like to be crude, vulgar, belch, talk sport and fart you can still do that with a women around. But like many people (regardless of sex) they find it annoying and discusting. Beside talking sports, but I am sure the majority of women know more about sports then I do so they might even make for a better person to be online with then me :P

  TwoThreeFour

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2149

1/26/13 10:17:24 AM#142
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ScaryMonk
Originally posted by NorseGod

First-world problems in video games.

I play MMOs to take a break from social issues and other RL crap. Guess I can go back to doing what I did before I got interested in MMOs. :hiccup:

Exactly this.  

Dam when I play a game there are a bunch of pixels running around looking like either male or female (or a bit of both if anime) and I have no idea who the player controlling them is or what they look like.  Neither do I care unless we get chatting and group up regularly.  Yes there are always trolls, and idiots, they go on the ignore list.      

What games are people playing where all this sexism and bullying and general un-pc behaviour happens?

As for sexism in the workplace, I hardly think this is the forum for a reasoned debate on the subject.  

 

(...)

On the other hand, though there are women who get unwanted attention from dorks who never learned how to speak to people, (...)

That's a huge missconception, they do know how to speak to people, they just choose not to speak to them in the proper manner.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3463

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/26/13 10:31:30 AM#143

I can't help it. I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here...

Let's face it. When men and women mix, the whole atmosphere changes, wherever that may be. Men and women are different, no matter what people try to say. "Offensive" behavior was rarely an issue until women entered onto the scene. Ever wonder why men created "Boy's Clubs?" Simply so they did not have to check every word out of their mouth before utterance. Face it, most humans, let alone men, lack that ability. I know of few places where women have entered into that the whole atmosphere has not changed because of their presence. Sometimes, that change is for the better, but it is still change.

Trash talking is a huge part of gaming, I am sad to say. Especially in overly competitive epeen games. One can get a psychological edge if a player allows them to. Sure makes it easier to off the other guy if he is standing still weeping.

Some men tell other men they have small genitalia. They call other men fat or ugly or basement virgins. They may call other men pansies or inadequate in lovemaking. They tell other men how good or bad the other player's mothers or sisters are in the sack.

Women enter into this and expect the behavior to somehow magically change, simply because they are present. This will never happen. Assholes abound in these kinds of games.

Now, IRL situations where physical harassment can occur, this is a whole other can of worms.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3442

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

1/26/13 10:35:12 AM#144


Originally posted by Rednecksith
I'll just leave this right here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnIJ-ljctk


LOL nice


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  TwoThreeFour

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2149

1/26/13 10:38:20 AM#145
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I can't help it. I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here...

Let's face it. When men and women mix, the whole atmosphere changes, wherever that may be. Men and women are different, no matter what people try to say. "Offensive" behavior was rarely an issue until women entered onto the scene. Ever wonder why men created "Boy's Clubs?" Simply so they did not have to check every word out of their mouth before utterance. Face it, most humans, let alone men, lack that ability. I know of few places where women have entered into that the whole atmosphere has not changed because of their presence. Sometimes, that change is for the better, but it is still change.

Trash talking is a huge part of gaming, I am sad to say. Especially in overly competitive epeen games. One can get a psychological edge if a player allows them to. Sure makes it easier to off the other guy if he is standing still weeping.

Some men tell other men they have small genitalia. They call other men fat or ugly or basement virgins. They may call other men pansies or inadequate in lovemaking. They tell other men how good or bad the other player's mothers or sisters are in the sack.

Women enter into this and expect the behavior to somehow magically change, simply because they are present. This will never happen. Assholes abound in these kinds of games.

Now, IRL situations where physical harassment can occur, this is a whole other can of worms.

Trashtalking is indeed a large problem within competitive gaming, which is why League of Legends introduced the tribunal and honor initiatives. 

 

However, about sexism: the additional problem, as I see it, occurs when a person who is normally well-behaved among men change their attitude to a worse one when a female enters the group, and vice versa, 

  Mueslinator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/11
Posts: 78

1/26/13 10:59:06 AM#146
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.

 

It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.

because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.

And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.

 

How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.

 

  KaylettaJade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/06
Posts: 144

1/26/13 11:00:37 AM#147

Although I don't support the format (whiny, pointless blog) that the author used, I keep seeing people say "I've never seen it" and "It's only women who point out their gender" and such things. So for those who don't grasp why women have an issue with how they're treated in gaming culture, here's a few pictures that should help explain things.

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/god_that_kills.png

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/rapetonight.jpg

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/ThePeen.jpg

And then there is this one, in which the person is a male playing a female character:

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Dedterrorist.jpg

 

It's not being picked on that's the problem. It's not even the overcompetitve nature and subsequent bashing (especially in consoles) that's the problem. Have a problem with me? Think I suck at whatever I'm doing? Fine. Call me fat, ugly, stupid, say I live in my parents basement, accuse me of being a virgin. That doesn't even come close to bothering me because I've seen guys say it to guys, even to their friends. I've also seen guys accuse each other of fornicating with farm animals, dead bodies, children, and 2 liter soda bottles, and while seriously disturbed, I'm still not offended!

 

But don't threaten to rape me (1 in 5 women will be raped so that stuff isn't funny), don't threaten to stalk me, don't pick on your friends when they lose to a girl (believe it or not that isn't a freaking compliment to us), don't complain about female raid leaders who take it seriously (we're bitches when we do that, but a guy, well he's just getting it done the right way), don't talk about my vagina - whether I have one or not is not your freaking business, don't ask to see my tits, don't whisper me for nudes, and realize that even if YOU aren't doing any of this, someone else is. I know this because I've had every single one of those things happen to me personally.

 

I don't sit an whine about how piss poorly I've been treated in games because I'm a female. I don't hide my gender, but I don't carry it like a chip on my shoulder either. I don't carry a grudge against men, or anyone, over that stuff. Instead of getting angry, I just get even. I know how to screen capture, archive messages, save emails, and use the 'red-flag' words that make even that crappy GM who doesn't care take notice. Send messages like the links to me, I will do everything I can to get you banned.

 

You can sit there and say 'Sexism isn't the problem', but when men are threatening to rape women, cut up their vaginas, or rape then with knives so they can't reproduce, it is misogyny. I totally agree that the entire abusive nature of competitve gaming culture needs to be examined and fixed, but it is rife with sexism as well. I don't tell men to go build me a house or fix my car and I don't appreciate being told I belong in a kitchen making sandwiches.

  TwoThreeFour

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2149

1/26/13 11:03:33 AM#148
Originally posted by Mueslinator
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.

 

It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.

because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.

And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.

 

How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.

 

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said woman dislikes you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

  Ryowulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 672

1/26/13 11:04:47 AM#149
Just to point out what some fail to understand.  Your personal experiences are not necessarily the norm within the community at large.  Before decrying something as not existing or unimportant because you are unaware of it, maybe you should zoom out a little and look at the whole instead of focusing on just your little corner of it.
  bansan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 371

1/26/13 11:13:33 AM#150

People. This is a human problem, not a man problem. You flip it where a man tries to break into something that is the "domain" of women, and you will get the same thing.

People are jerks, and when you get them where they are with the dominant group, the ones with the nastiest tendencies will try to satisfy those tendencies. Not to mention the "gaming" community has a lot of people just at the cusp of adulthood. Children, and internet anonymity.

I don't propose to have a solution, but you have the define the problem properly. Men gamers don't need to treat women better. People just need to treat other people better.

  Mueslinator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/11
Posts: 78

1/26/13 11:18:51 AM#151
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said women dislike you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

 

Because that's just how the dynamic between men and women works for the most part. Women are the ones who are in charge of what is socially acceptable or not.

And your sentiment of "behave as you will, it's her loss". Yeah, try that in real life. See how long you last before you're labelled a creep, a loser, or a pig .

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

1/26/13 11:19:44 AM#152

This is a horrible article!! Full of sweeping generalizations about men and women!

Truth is, everybody gets some level of harrassment in online gaming, nobody is safe from it. Nothing will ever stop it, unless we have big brother watch us 24/7, like China does!!!!

It seems sensorship is the only thing that will make some female gamers happy, they have no idea what they are asking for.

  Mueslinator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/11
Posts: 78

1/26/13 11:21:13 AM#153
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Just to point out what some fail to understand.  Your personal experiences are not necessarily the norm within the community at large.  Before decrying something as not existing or unimportant because you are unaware of it, maybe you should zoom out a little and look at the whole instead of focusing on just your little corner of it.

Personal experience however is verifiable, at least to the person having experienced it. Another person talking about something is hearsay.

Say, does 'elevatorgate' mean something to you?

  TwoThreeFour

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2149

1/26/13 11:22:58 AM#154
Originally posted by Mueslinator
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said women dislike you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

 

Because that's just how the dynamic between men and women works for the most part. Women are the ones who are in charge of what is socially acceptable or not.

And your sentiment of "behave as you will, it's her loss". Yeah, try that in real life. See how long you last before you're labelled a creep, a loser, or a pig .

I pity that you cannot be yourself then at all times and that you have to hide in presence of women.  

  Thebigchin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/26/13
Posts: 9

1/26/13 11:23:37 AM#155

This is an article based on a handful of tweets out of a population of millions.  If I were to focus on the vocal minority and the internet trolls I could make a case for any sector of society being somehow unenlightened or bigoted in one way or another.  

For me the article has almost zero merit.  My first post so I thought I would start on a controversial note.  

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

1/26/13 11:23:41 AM#156
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Just to point out what some fail to understand.  Your personal experiences are not necessarily the norm within the community at large.  Before decrying something as not existing or unimportant because you are unaware of it, maybe you should zoom out a little and look at the whole instead of focusing on just your little corner of it.
 

But that is exactly the problem, on the womans side!

She sees every insult as a personal attack on her, and then assumes that this is some sort of giant plot against women as a whole.

I think these women need to also "zoom out" and see it is just as much a problem for men as it is for women. These jerks dont care about gender, they attack everyone, especially those who show any kind of weakness.

  User Deleted
1/26/13 11:32:45 AM#157
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Just to point out what some fail to understand.  Your personal experiences are not necessarily the norm within the community at large.  Before decrying something as not existing or unimportant because you are unaware of it, maybe you should zoom out a little and look at the whole instead of focusing on just your little corner of it.

Eh. That would be scary for many of the gentlemen here. Easier to nag about that its just a hoax. But then again it is always scary when you can feel the changes. An article like what we are dicussing atm wouldnt be real a couple of years ago. But slowly the gaming industry are learning that if they can attract women their custom base would increase wastley. Now the gaming community should only jump on the train as well...but that wont happen in a long time (see the comments made by the gentlemen's in this thread for a clear example)

  kathwynn

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/11
Posts: 3

1/26/13 11:37:40 AM#158

I know trolls are every where. Personally, I find gaming with women just  as enjoyable. Different perspective and all that. Trolls are going to do allthey can to rattle people cages. It is what they  do. The best thing to do in case of a troll. Is ignore or report when the the fool crosses  the sites TOS. and then let the Moderators and Admion take it from there.

 

As a gamer that started out as a table top.. Yes, I still enjopy it as well. The one thing my brothers, friends, and I all wanted as teens was to have some girls join us in our weekly gaming sessions. Even if it was only once or twice a month.

 

But in 1979 that was hard to come by in a small US town. Yes I am that old.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/26/13 11:41:06 AM#159
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Mueslinator
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.

 

It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.

because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.

And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.

 

How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.

 

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said woman dislikes you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

Basic human nature. Its as true for women as it is for men. Its down at the biological instinct level.  In most people, they aren't even aware of it.  You see the same thing in most other animals though out the world. Humans are part of that world, and what makes us the dominant species is our intelligence and the tools that flow from that.  But underneath of all that, we have the same biological drives.

Those color and influence much of our perceptions and interactions.  The two primary fundamental factors in human interactions are sex and power. Just about everything else flows from those two.

  Thebigchin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/26/13
Posts: 9

1/26/13 11:45:42 AM#160
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Mueslinator
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you? 

You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.

 

It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.

because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.

And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.

 

How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.

 

Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said woman dislikes you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss. 

Basic human nature. Its as true for women as it is for men. Its down at the biological instinct level.  In most people, they aren't even aware of it.  You see the same thing in most other animals though out the world. Humans are part of that world, and what makes us the dominant species is our intelligence and the tools that flow from that.  But underneath of all that, we have the same biological drives.

Those color and influence much of our perceptions and interactions.  The two primary fundamental factors in human interactions are sex and power. Just about everything else flows from those two.

We are also a social animal, and we have elvolved to rely upon our pack to warn us of danger and assist us in hunting and gathering.  So your argument is slightly flawed.  

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