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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How long will MMOs hide P2W behind the veil of FTP?

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210 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 2:23:12 PM#41
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  newchemicals

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/06
Posts: 43

1/25/13 2:24:09 PM#42

My way is vote with my wallet.

I will pay for games with a monthly sub that does not have F2P.

Any F2P game I play I will never ever spend money on and do nothing but hog up hard drive space and go on their forums and demand more game access.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 2:24:22 PM#43
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Bossalinie
@Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition.

For you.

And others, including those who make a living by playing games.  Just because you have a different kind of income, doesn't mean others do not play games to compete, or do so to make their living.

Also, I'm not even sure why you'd respond with "For you."  Are you sure that Azoth does in fact use them as competition?  Or did you mean something more like "Not for me."  Azoth could have been referring to other people, best not to assume until you know for sure, eh?

So basically you understood exactly what I meant in my succinct two words, but you chose to harp on it anyway? ;)

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

1/25/13 2:24:34 PM#44
Originally posted by Bossalinie
@Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

1/25/13 2:25:47 PM#45
Originally posted by newchemicals

My way is vote with my wallet.

I will pay for games with a monthly sub that does not have F2P.

Any F2P game I play I will never ever spend money on and do nothing but hog up hard drive space and go on their forums and demand more game access.

Everyone does that. People only play/pay games they find fun. Otherwise, what is the point.

 

 

  Ezhae

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

1/25/13 2:26:50 PM#46
Dear OP, please do not talk in generic terms. Please say which MMOs exactly you have on mind, because recently, most of the F2P conversion I've seen and playtested didn't seem P2W at all. So... what in the seven hells are You talking about ? 
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/25/13 2:27:08 PM#47
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

If you don't think there is a lot disagreement on this forum regarding that, read the forum more.  Xp boosts alone will cause a 10 page thread on whether it's p2w.

Some say anything you can in a shop that you can get in game is p2w because your not earning it.  People say the 2 second differene in harvesting in FE between the f2p and the subscribers is a huge disadvantage.

People say all cosmetic items should be available in game, if you don't earn them they are pay to win.

People say that the body can repel rape sperm too, doesn't make them any less stupid for saying it.

Did you actually just compare a f2p or p2w game to rape or a stupid comment about rape made by a moronic politician.

"here's your sign"

No, I merely showed an example of what you should not take at face value. You honestly listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

I didn't say I agree.  I said there is a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes pay 2 win.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/25/13 2:27:43 PM#48
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bossalinie
@Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 2:28:18 PM#49
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

 

Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

El Psy Congroo

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/25/13 2:28:53 PM#50
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I didn't say I agree.  I said there is a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes pay 2 win.

Which is why you do not listen to morons, and correct them at every opportunity. If you honestly point out the difference to them and they continue to argue then they are either trolling, or stupid and not worth the effort.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

1/25/13 2:30:43 PM#51
Originally posted by jimdandy26

 listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

taking that one step further with an example

 

paying for ingame mounts with real cash

-- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5766

1/25/13 2:31:32 PM#52
OP, they will probably remain P2W for as long as P2P games remain P2W.  Maybe not that long.  P2P games might keep the corner on P2W long after sub-free games evolve.  There isn't much evolution left in the sub-locked restrictive rent-only paywall system except their cash shops continue to grow.

Curse you AquaScum!

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

1/25/13 2:31:33 PM#53
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Furcadia 1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

 I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

1/25/13 2:32:08 PM#54
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bossalinie
@Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5766

1/25/13 2:32:48 PM#55
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Furcadia 1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

 I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

Yeah, people must have hated that game.  Stupid F2P.  No one really likes those games or the payment model. <that was sarcasm>

Curse you AquaScum!

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 2:34:34 PM#56
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by jimdandy26

 listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

taking that one step further with an example

 

paying for ingame mounts with real cash

-- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

More preferable to me would be a system where a player could by a cosmetic mount look.  They would need to have earned the base mount through actual gameplay already - the purchasable cosmetic would only alter how it looked - not its stats such as speed, nor would it get the mount to a player sooner.

El Psy Congroo

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 2:35:01 PM#57
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Furcadia 1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

 I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

Never knew that. I have to check that out and see what the game was all about. Thanks for the info.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Skooma2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/08
Posts: 683

1/25/13 2:35:47 PM#58

At the outset I must acknowledge that I have not read every reply, so, if I repeat any thing previously stated, just say so.

 

F2P games do not descend from the heavens and install themselves on a computer.  F2P games are not the result of quantum mechanics causing the game to spontaneously exist.   Real people make these games.   They have to be paid.   Servers have to be used to allow people to play.  They are not free.  I can use more examples, but you understand the gist of what I am saying.

 

F2P =/= P2W.    The fact that people pay for things in a F2P game is what causes the game to remain open.   They have to make money some way. 

 

As a personal opinion, and not a dig at the OP, the original post seems to be from someone who enjoys F2P games (as do many people) but cannot afford to buy things from the in-game store, which causes  impecunious  people (look it up) to "fall behind" other players.   In summary, some people have extra money to spend on games; some don't.

Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

1/25/13 2:36:52 PM#59
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

 

Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

Free to PLay is an actual industry acknowledged payment model. P2W and B2W and terms that players have created to describe games but they are not actual categories. I'm sure you knew this, so I'm wondering why so much antagonism from you today. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/25/13 2:41:59 PM#60
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by jimdandy26

 listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

taking that one step further with an example

 

paying for ingame mounts with real cash

-- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

No, because cash is virtually never p2w. Its not something that you can't get in game as it is.

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jimdandy26

Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

 

The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

 

The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

 

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

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