[mod edit]

Originally posted by caetftl

 

It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 

 

Yeah, but you are assuming that all women do this.

I'm sure there are women who latch on to guys for support and do so by batting their eyelashes. So sure, I agree that if they want to be respected in game "for the abilities that the game requires" they need to step it up.

But since I don't know "every woman who plays games" I can't realistically (or with a straight face) say that they all do this as you indicate.

I bet dollars to donuts that the truth is that you just noticed women doing this in games and because these particular women distinguish themselvse in this fashion they stand out.

In some ways it's a difficutl thing to asses. Some of your post sounds so 1950's bakward thinking. But the truth is that there are women who use their wiles to get ahead. And there are women who have no problem being miss suzy home maker and letting their man bring home the bacon.

But there are women who are tired of being lumped in with these women and who do try to distinguish themselves on their own merit.

Lastly, maybe there aren't as many awesome women gamers because those who are worth their salt in anything they do, ply their abilities, time and effort in other activities that they think are more worthwhile?

I would be very interested in seeing some women stand up and say "well, these are our accomplishments".

My sense is that the women who act in a manner as  you suggest would be finding the fast track even if they were men. That it's not about them being women but about them being the type of people who use others to get ahead and since they are women they just use the tools at hand. That in fact, the men who use others to get ahead do so by using other methods.

Personally I feel articles like this do more harm than good. These generalizations do not make people aware of an existing problem. It only serves to highlight the negativity, and it makes all women seem like victims. There are hundreds and thousands of women gamers all across the world that have never been effected by sexism in gaming, but congratulations, now they will. You have taken a small number of women, and individual cases and applied it to an entire gender. 

This is no worse than homosexual or even racial issues. By making these isolated cases seem bigger than they are, you turn society against the "victims", and make people feel pity for them, and then it carries over to everyone associated with them. 

Please dont make more women victims in gaming. Women in gaming is a very real thing, and most are very happy with the way things are. They are in great guilds and communities, accepted by men and women alike, and share all the same interests and achievements as men do. Stop destroying that, and trying to make them feel like they are a lesser gender. This article is a travesty and should be removed before it causes any more harm. 

Well I read the article twice.  I had no clue about the names in the article or the situations of what the op talks about.  I had to dig hard on google to find anything about them in fact.  

I once had an interview at a local lawers office to work in their it department.  I was told if I was hired there would be no funny bussines, or messing around. I told the lady I been married for at that time 23 years, and never had a problem.  I was then told oh you dont understand other than the 2 male autorneys the rest of the staff was comprised of ladies between the ages of 20-46 and none of them married.  Needless to say I did not entertain that job offer.

I been playing video games for years.  It never once mattered to me who was on the other side of the keyboard. I try to treat all the folks I played with over the years the same.  I could care less if they were guys or girls, or girls with male toons, or guys with female toons. Until you get in vent in guild chat you never know. I beenin guilds where we had husband/wfie boyfriend/girlfriend members even some lgbt folks.   

I can only remember once one of our guld mates being harresed in general chat, and those 3 guys who did it picked up a 30 day ban.

The way I see it you can live a victim mentality and let folks make you the victim the rest of your life or you can stand up for yourself and say I not going to take it.  The choice is up to that person. 

I don't expect the game to do anything unless folks say somebody is harrassing them, and at that point it is an equal opertunity thing.   

Originally posted by aslan132

Personally I feel articles like this do more harm than good. These generalizations do not make people aware of an existing problem. It only serves to highlight the negativity, and it makes all women seem like victims. There are hundreds and thousands of women gamers all across the world that have never been effected by sexism in gaming, but congratulations, now they will. You have taken a small number of women, and individual cases and applied it to an entire gender. 

 

This is no worse than homosexual or even racial issues. By making these isolated cases seem bigger than they are, you turn society against the "victims", and make people feel pity for them, and then it carries over to everyone associated with them. 

 

Please dont make more women victims in gaming. Women in gaming is a very real thing, and most are very happy with the way things are. They are in great guilds and communities, accepted by men and women alike, and share all the same interests and achievements as men do. Stop destroying that, and trying to make them feel like they are a lesser gender. This article is a travesty and should be removed before it causes any more harm. 

Not sure about more harm than good.  As you can see there are people on both extremes just as with most topics.  But if it makes even one person think a little bit about their own behavior then it served a purpose.  Most won't change their attitudes of course, either way. 

The people that really feel that women are inferior aren't going to change their opinion over an article but the people who do so and don't even realize it might just look at what they are doing.

Why should a person stand up and say their not going to take it anymore?  It is that exact line of thinking that is a part of the overall problem.  If people practiced chivalry towards one another there would be no reason to have to stand up and defend yourself, stop putting the blame on the victim by saying their not doing enough to defend themself and start focusing on the real problem.

Thanks.

1) Women objectify male characters in games and media just as much as women. Anyone who claims otherwise is a plain liar. It's human nature that it goes both ways, get over it.

2) That list of "events" from 2012 is unfounded, uncited, and basically "he said, she said" drivel which does not in any way pursuade me to side with the author of this article. I am sure one could look for an obscure report of aliens abducting someone's spleen if they wanted to, get over it.

3) In an age of political correctness, civil quality, and equal rights everyone regardless of their sex, color, sexual preference or whatever; seriously need to get over it and quit hiding behind labels and whining. Life sucks, oh well. This isn't the 1950's, no one alive has ever owned a slave, women vote equally, and whites are the minority now.  Get over it

So like I said, people need to just get over walking on glass and move on. The Earth never stopped spinning and life goes on. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by caetftl

 

It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 

 

Yeah, but you are assuming that all women do this.

I'm sure there are women who latch on to guys for support and do so by batting their eyelashes. So sure, I agree that if they want to be respected in game "for the abilities that the game requires" they need to step it up.

But since I don't know "every woman who plays games" I can't realistically (or with a straight face) say that they all do this as you indicate.

I bet dollars to donuts that the truth is that you just noticed women doing this in games and because these particular women distinguish themselvse in this fashion they stand out.

In some ways it's a difficutl thing to asses. Some of your post sounds so 1950's bakward thinking. But the truth is that there are women who use their wiles to get ahead. And there are women who have no problem being miss suzy home maker and letting their man bring home the bacon.

But there are women who are tired of being lumped in with these women and who do try to distinguish themselves on their own merit.

Lastly, maybe there aren't as many awesome women gamers because those who are worth their salt in anything they do, ply their abilities, time and effort in other activities that they think are more worthwhile?

I would be very interested in seeing some women stand up and say "well, these are our accomplishments".

My sense is that the women who act in a manner as  you suggest would be finding the fast track even if they were men. That it's not about them being women but about them being the type of people who use others to get ahead and since they are women they just use the tools at hand. That in fact, the men who use others to get ahead do so by using other methods.

 

 

If they are tired of being lumped in, they have the power to go break the mold.  Until then they are just whining and :gasp: expecting special consideration without doing anything to merit it.

Go be a female gamer that doesn't ever talk about her sex.  Go outperform most of the male gamers and show you are a legitimately skilled gamer.  Then once you've acquired some good gaming accolades, tell your story. 

This reminds me of Dave Chappelle on Inside the Actor's studio.  Where he talks about how people are born with priveleges they may not even realize they have... female gamers are like this often, do they get a little extra benefit of the doubt on everything?  Yea... maybe they got that guild invite cause they were a girl, maybe joeblow helped tank their 5man to help them gear up, because they were a girl.  Most of them are naive or delusional and just tell themselves, "oh we are just being friendly that's how normal people act".  But we both know guys go outta their way to help the ladies, much moreso than they do for guy pals on average. 

It isn't backwards thinking, it is actually progressive to understand that all things are not exactly equal and that being liberal for the sake of being liberal does nothing.  Better to be objective and accept the facts for what they are, no matter how pretty or ugly they may be.  Show me top progression guilds with a female that is their top dpser, best tank, or best healer.  Show me a female LoL player that got to 2400 elo on her own without having to play support to some high elo male that carried her.  I want to see women prove they are badass gamers, they just have yet to do so, and the ones that have come close to those high accolades, all paint a bad picture because those are generally the ones that whored themselves out extra well to get carried that far. 

There are pigs in real life and there are pigs on the internet, the problem with the internet is that its in black and white.

I have to say I never new this was an issue. The groups I hang with must be more gentlemanly than most maybe.

Sexism is apparent in the culture. It is taught mostly as a culture or a roll to fill. From woman being paid less on certain jobs to men paying more on car-insurance than females. From girls only deemed to play with dolls and houses to boys playing with trucks and cars. From men willingly showing their full chest to woman willingly showing their breast tops and bellies in shirts.

If woman want more games to cater to their likes, then they will have to recruit more females into the game-making career and create the games they like. Not just based on what the male population is use to, but also in a way as not to come across as Censorship Ahoy Propaganda.

This can be a somewhat tricky issue, as the "sexism" can be easily be used as censorship in gaming (I do not support censorship). The most common and often used part being that woman are degraded because a female is wearing a skimpy outfit in a game. But in America the existance of things such as PlayBoy and Kahoots exist, and are not deemed as sexism but as entertainment for certain audiences(which can be either male or female now due to LGBT over-turning in West).

The average every-day entertaineer or singer is showing off her breast, butt, boob, or full body. It comes down to pay. Woman dress the way they do to mostly lure in men. Men are lured, pay the woman, and the company gets rich off the thousand of customers they attract. She enjoys the job she does, signs a contract, and is in no way "forced" to do anything she does not want to do out of her own free-will.

Sexism is a word to use carefully unless it is legitament found (denying a female a job based on her gender, firing her because she is a female, ect) as there is nothing wrong for a male to feel the natrual attraction towards a female. This should not be condemn and taught as "sexism" because on the flip-side, a female can be naturally attracted to a male by his attributes as well too. This is natural attraction of the human race, not sexism. If a female does not want the attraction she has a mouth to speak. If the guy cannot take the hint or persist, then it can be considered sexual harassment. Some woman are not afraid to put those who over-step their boundaries in their place as well.

The sexism comes into roll on how fathers (if they were present at all) in raising their sons. If they taught their sons to treat and respect people in society, then this would be less a problem. But you do have male pow-wows, just as females have their pow-wows as well.

I have seen though, more woman viciously tear other females down out of jealousy, downgrading or coventness just based on gender alone or competition. So no one is innocent in the case of sexism, nor should everyone be treated as gods or goddesses simply based on their gender alone(I refer this to men who bend over backwards for woman and get the rug treatment).

Originally posted by FatDrunk

That's another flip to the coin.

The new problems occuring now that woman are being put in the front-lines of army, there will be an increase of aggression or rape to her by her own 'team-mates' or sexual assault by the enemy.

There was a reason why woman weren't put in the front-lines, because of the gruseomness of it.

What?  Utterly irrelevent.  I mean there is a time and a place for that discussion, but I doubt this is it.  

Originally posted by mymmo
haha. men discussing gender issues...its so funny to behold. 

Why, they are one half of the issue? 

I'm confused what this is about, how women are treated in the industry or how they are portrayed in video games?

As far as the portrayal of female characters in video games i can totally understand a woman complaining about it but you need to keep in mind that until the past decade or so gaming has basically only had a male audience. I'm not saying women never played games, they just cetainly werent the majority of gamers.

Most video games are fantasy, so having beautiful, sexy female characters for the male audience makes perfect sense. Its not about being sexist. You wont see me going around crying about how all the male hero's in a game are so super buff and not fat and ugly like me. Some characters are but that goes both ways. The major heroes are usually "hot studs." Whatever, i can be an awesome "hot stud" kicking ass instead of a lazy fatty in my living room or bed room.

As far as the way women are treated in the world im just not gonna argue that. This is supposed to be about video games. I do not like the way women are treated in the real world, its not as bad as it was 50-70+ years ago but yes it is still bad.

I love women, guys are stupid and ugly so i do wish you the best in the world.

Ok first I'd like to say that I am a guy, and I play with both male and female players in my little circle of friends.

Couple of things:

1. I dont really care about anyone (male or female) outside of my friends (online and off). Call it a fear of having too many friends. Thats why I hate social media, too much oppertunity to meet new folks that I dont want to know.

2. Im not guilty of any of the negative "guy" behavior towards women, with the possible exception of not getting involved. But its not like I wish any gamers, female or male, ill.

3. I play games for fun and to escape reality. I could care less for politics or real world issues. Thats why I just say, F@#% everything and everyone and let the world ride its one way ticket in its handbasket to hell! Not my problem.

4. I dont believe in standing up for others. Im a selfish person and will only do that for me. Its everyone elses responsibility to watch their own ass. Im not running a daycare here.

5. Any serious threats or harm done to people (male or female) have a coarse of action to take and can utilize the courts. Again, not my problem.

6. If new laws are required to keep people in check, then the lawmakers can do so. I try to act at least civil or nice to anyone and everyone I meet. Im not an asshole, just a semi-anti-social and selfish person.

TL, DR : Not my problem, everyone can fend for themselves.

Originally posted by caetftl

 

 

If they are tired of being lumped in, they have the power to go break the mold.  Until then they are just whining and :gasp: expecting special consideration without doing anything to merit it.

 

Go be a female gamer that doesn't ever talk about her sex.  Go outperform most of the male gamers and show you are a legitimately skilled gamer.  Then once you've acquired some good gaming accolades, tell your story. 

This reminds me of Dave Chappelle on Inside the Actor's studio.  Where he talks about how people are born with priveleges they may not even realize they have... female gamers are like this often, do they get a little extra benefit of the doubt on everything?  Yea... maybe they got that guild invite cause they were a girl, maybe joeblow helped tank their 5man to help them gear up, because they were a girl.  Most of them are naive or delusional and just tell themselves, "oh we are just being friendly that's how normal people act".  But we both know guys go outta their way to help the ladies, much moreso than they do for guy pals on average. 

It isn't backwards thinking, it is actually progressive to understand that all things are not exactly equal and that being liberal for the sake of being liberal does nothing.  Better to be objective and accept the facts for what they are, no matter how pretty or ugly they may be.  Show me top progression guilds with a female that is their top dpser, best tank, or best healer.  Show me a female LoL player that got to 2400 elo on her own without having to play support to some high elo male that carried her.  I want to see women prove they are badass gamers, they just have yet to do so, and the ones that have come close to those high accolades, all paint a bad picture because those are generally the ones that whored themselves out extra well to get carried that far. 

I don't neccesarily disagree but I also believe that one doesn't t have to sit around and be a lump and say "oh well, I guess that's just how the cookie crumbles" throw up your hands with a gooffy grin and cue in stupid sitcom music. Sure there are differneces and sure there are inequalities but the gist is that we as a society should be working on treating each other better if not just staying out of each other's hair.

And as I've said, maybe most women who have ability are using their time in activities that are more real and rewarding to them than video games. Or maybe they just don't have the same drive or value different experiences. However, you are lumping in all women when I don't really believe all gamer women are "complaining".  Though just because someone, woman or no, complains about harrassment doens't mean that they aren't experiencing something real. I do think that gamer women, men, and whoever else shouldn't have to deal with crap. In a perfect world they wouldn't but apparenlthy the reality is that the internet, with its anonymity, allows people to show their true crappy selves.

Not discussing and empowering communities to start punishing the offenders is just lazy. Sure no one is going to change a person if they are racist or sexist or "whatever ist" they are but if groups start saying "hey, not cool, not acceptable" then maybe these communities will become a little less poison.

Here we go again... Lets get something straight, shall we? I speak for no one but myself (which should be obvious, but far too many people forget that), but as far as I'm concerned, people are people and gamers are gamers.  I really do make the attempt to treat people as *individuals*, not collectives.

That means that i'm NOT Politically Correct (PC) in the least.  I judge (yes JUDGE) people on their personal words and actions. Especially if the two do not match up.

Having watched PC (and the rise of its various labels "sexism", "racism", "anti semitism" and my personal favortite "ageism" to name but a few) from its start in the mid to late 60's (yes, I'm that damn old... ^^) I've watched in fascination as it has infiltrated, and spread through out much of the western power system and society.

Anyone familiar with whats known as "Rules for Radicals" could have predicted this course of events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

"Sexism" is simply one aspect of whats known as The Cause in some circles.  The current generation of what I call "Crusader Activists" are really the third generation of such types.  But unlike the first generation, who fought for equality (which I supported then, and now), the second and especially third generations fight for power (especially political power).

With that power, they seek to change society (and human nature) to conform to their personal dictates.

So, just what is "sexism"?  Here are the wiki definitions. Note also that it can apply to *both* sexes (especially since the rise of PC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

One of the problems that some of the third generation are facing is that of burn out, and push back.  It takes a real zealot to go through life with a "balanced" attitude... In other words with a chip on BOTH shoulders... ^^  Always being angry, and always being "offended", extracts quite a toll on people (male or female).

The push back aspect is obvious.  People will only take being pushed for so long, before they start to push back.  In this day and age its better known as blow back.  The Cause is not advanced by those who howl "sexism" at the drop of a garter... ^^

Does real sexism exist? Of course it does, and likely always will.  But that doesn't mean that its *worst* aspects shouldn't be confronted, and those expressing such shunned, or other wise dealt with.  But the petty aspects are just draining and damaging. 

Unfortunately zealots aren't known for their target discrimination, and as a consequence end up doing more harm than good.  Bottom line, lets treat each other as individual *people*, and at least attempt not to be thoughtlessly rude.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ScaryMonk

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ScaryMonk

 

I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response.  I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.    

In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all.  I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense.  What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game? 

 

ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.

yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.

As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.

Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.

My response would be, its a computer game, it is my downtime.  If I do not like the community for wahtever reason it is no longer escapism and I quit.  

If I see these issues in real life that is an entirely different matter, but I rarely see them in real life; certainly my workplace (its about a 50/50 mix) and the bars I go to afterwards are a little more enlightened than the general portrayal in this article.  

Yeah but monk, this is real life.

I know that's difficult for some to accept that logging into a computer game is anything other than escapism but humans are humans in any venue they choose to enter.

My circle of friends as well as my job are all above board and above and beyond as far as treating people well. I don't generally see this crap in my immediate circle. I have seen it in game and I have seen it out of game.

I've also seen people create drama and put themselves into the positon of "being a victim". I think they get off on it or need it to define them. I have seen people, and in this case women, walkking down the street and get harassed because they were chesty. And not even wearing revealing clothing.

So again, I believe the issue is recognizing when it's happenign and is a real problem (whether male or female but it seems that women have their own brand of harrassment that they have to deal with) and of course recognizing those who are all about drama.

It's lovely you want to be a knight in shining armour but essentially this isn't an issue about sexism or any other prejudice it's more about certain people basically not being comfortable within themselves.

Honestly if you get offended by morons on the internet calling you names about something beyond your control then really you have the problem with whatever it is.  Whether your black, asian, gay, a woman, have some lifelong condition, (like me), at some point it's my belief you have to come to terms with it and ignore those who would be negative towards you because of it.

People are aresholes online, many of them wind me up, but I never take it personally because they have no clue about me so how can they possibly know what hurts me? If I can I take revenge, I always try to anyway :D

No matter how many men condem other men for being sexist, or call out those who are offensive towards black people, they'll always be some other dick you bump into who will try and take advantage.  The only real way you beat bullies is to not let them have an advantage over you. For that to be you need to come to terms with who you are and who you could be with effort.  That way noone, no matter ingame or real life can limit you to a little moronic box.

Originally posted by Omnifish

 

It's lovely you want to be a knight in shining armour but essentially this isn't an issue about sexism or any other prejudice it's more about certain people basically not being comfortable within themselves.

Honestly if you get offended by morons on the internet calling you names about something beyond your control then really you have the problem with whatever it is.  Whether your black, asian, gay, a woman, have some lifelong condition, (like me), at some point it's my belief you have to come to terms with it and ignore those who would be negative towards you because of it.

People are aresholes online, many of them wind me up, but I never take it personally because they have no clue about me so how can they possibly know what hurts me? If I can I take revenge, I always try to anyway :D

No matter how many men condem other men for being sexist, or call out those who are offensive towards black people, they'll always be some other dick you bump into who will try and take advantage.  The only real way you beat bullies is to not let them have an advantage over you. For that to be you need to come to terms with who you are and who you could be with effort.  That way noone, no matter ingame or real life can limit you to a little moronic box.

 

It's not knight in shining armor. It's more about my belief that people need to leave each other the heck alone.

You might call it "Knight in Shining armor" but I call it living decently and treating others as decently as they deserve and not standing by while people are persectued. This might not be your way or you might not see eye to eye with the way it is enacted, but it is mine and it is the way of other people. Not everyone of course.

As far as getting called names, well, one way is to say "hey, man up nancy boy and just take it". That certainly is a strategy. I'm just not convinced that's the right strategy.

Having said that, the part I highlighted does resonate and is a very good point.