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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect

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234 posts found
  Terranah

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3618

1/25/13 12:44:24 PM#41

So I work with a profession that is greater than 90% female.  You know how many times I've seen or heard sexist behavior coming from a woman?  Many times.  Many, many times.

 

To be specific, I've had my ass rubbed at work and my penis and balls grabbed/rubbed by more than one female coworker over the years.  I had one female coworker who repeatedly made jokes about small penises and joking how small she thought my penis was.  Finally one day I pulled her aside privately and said, "I don't why you keep talking shit about my penis, I never say anything about your fake boobs, how would that make you feel ? ...but if you want to see my cock I'll whip it out right now and you can see for yourself.  But just to give you a little warning, it's not that small.  In fact, I think you'll be surprised to find out it's a lot bigger than you think."  She declined, and after that she never mentioned my dick size again.

 

Now I'm not going to say there is no sexism.  There's lots of it to go around.  What I've found from personal experience is whoever is in power usually is the one doing the offending.  It's not so much a man thing, as it is a human thing.  We'll hate each other because of the color of skin, gender, sexual orientation...or hell, if we can't find something to hate we'll make some shit up.  That's just the way a certain contingent of the human race operates.

 

OP says, 'I'm angry' several times in her article.  Whatever fuels your day.  Now, I'm going to shut this crap out of my head and indulge in some escapism.  Later.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17532

1/25/13 12:45:22 PM#42
Originally posted by ScaryMonk
 

Yeah but Sov, I have never seen this occur in any computer game I have played.  I have seen all kinds of trolls but I have never been in a position for this to be an issue.  The internet is like the wild west, if you do see it happening by responding you will generally only feed the trolls.  Yes it is wrong, yes it should result in a ban if necessary, I am not in a position to police either of these things in a game, unless I threaten them with my wand of great evocation.  

lol, ok point well taken and you are correct, perhaps feeding the trolls in some cases is not the answer. I do think that if one is in the position to say something, guild leader or officer, etc then they should. As I've said, I have seen it and in a funny circumstance was at the receiving end. Actually I had a guy hit on an alt in lotro though in his case he was at least nice about it.

Sorry I inferred anything negative toward your character. I just have concerns when people hear of things that are bad and instead of approaching it with the idea that it could be a real issue they lash out and attack or turn a blind eye because they aren't equipped or are unwilling to admit that there are issues.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/25/13 12:48:05 PM#43

Anyone catching Nerd Reality Television? All "gamer press girls", apparently, have pink hair. Except the ones that are blue.

Gooo pink!

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  GallifreyanRefugee

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 1

1/25/13 12:54:30 PM#44
MMORPG.com has earned my respect for being forward-thinking enough to hire someone to write about this issue. Good article, looking forward to future work. [Ignore the haters. If anything, they're proving your point.]
  kadepsyson

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 1:01:34 PM#45

I feel this is a very important topic to cover.  It should get more attention.

I also feel women can be sexist just like men can be sexist.  I like to think they are equals.

El Psy Congroo

  Gamayun

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 73

1/25/13 1:20:12 PM#46

I'll put these three links here, because they illustrate the topic well:

-Anita Sarkeesian at TEDxWomen 2012

-Ill Doctrine: All These Sexist Gamer Dudes Are Some Shook Ones

-Every message is the same. I’m always either fat and ugly, or a slut.

 

 

I expect a lot of comments will be about how sexism in gaming doesn't exist, how it's not a big issue at all, and how actually men suffer more than women in that regard. 

 

Le me reply to that with a LOL in advance. 

 

Rudeness and plain harassment in games are not gender neutral, and are not equally tallied. There's a whole spectrum of behavior and insults that women are subjected to and men aren't. The insults are usually connected to female sexuality and body (sexual objectifying of women gamers, disacknowledgment of women's right to express themselves and to freely accept/reject romantic or sexual advances) and to the idea of female inferiority and extremely locked gender roles. 

 

Anyway, one part of the problem is the representation of women (heavily idealized and sexualized body and armor in comparison to male characters) , still often restrictive roles of female characters in games. The other is the community, where intolerance and disdain for females, various minorities... (the "Other"), already present outside the internet, become even more problematic in an environment without personal responsibility and with a tradition of excluding women. 

 

Sure, there are women who conform to and agree with the currently predominant (male?) gamer mentality, because we're all affected by the same and constant messages by the media and the society, and there's always the pressure to fit in the group, but that doesn't make sexism right or good.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17532

1/25/13 1:22:39 PM#47
Originally posted by kadepsyson

I feel this is a very important topic to cover.  It should get more attention.

I also feel women can be sexist just like men can be sexist.  I like to think they are equals.

To that I agree.

Years ago I went in for a 2nd interview for a job and the office manager said to me "now, just to let you know, we don't tolerate sexual harassment or unprofessional behavior here" And I said "you have nothing to worry about, I'm always professional and would never think of harrassing or making anyone here uncomfortable".

To which she responded "oh no, it's not you we are worried about, it's mostly women here."

However, everyone was very professional so it never was an issue.

  ScaryMonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/13
Posts: 102

1/25/13 1:24:03 PM#48
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ScaryMonk
 

Yeah but Sov, I have never seen this occur in any computer game I have played.  I have seen all kinds of trolls but I have never been in a position for this to be an issue.  The internet is like the wild west, if you do see it happening by responding you will generally only feed the trolls.  Yes it is wrong, yes it should result in a ban if necessary, I am not in a position to police either of these things in a game, unless I threaten them with my wand of great evocation.  

lol, ok point well taken and you are correct, perhaps feeding the trolls in some cases is not the answer. I do think that if one is in the position to say something, guild leader or officer, etc then they should. As I've said, I have seen it and in a funny circumstance was at the receiving end. Actually I had a guy hit on an alt in lotro though in his case he was at least nice about it.

Sorry I inferred anything negative toward your character. I just have concerns when people hear of things that are bad and instead of approaching it with the idea that it could be a real issue they lash out and attack or turn a blind eye because they aren't equipped or are unwilling to admit that there are issues.

I had a similar experience in vanilla wow.  It took me many hours of playtime to realise he was hitting on my female character as I only ever saw it as a bunch of pixels.    

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7274

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

1/25/13 1:27:55 PM#49
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by Istavaan
Maybe women should stop blaming men for everything and take responsibility for their own actions. 

So women are responsible for being treated as second class citizens in some online/geek areas, gaming being one, how so?  By being born?

 

Ah I know the response, ive seen it to many times: "Well if they didnt keep bringing it up, it wouldnt happen! people are reacting! bla bla bla feminist agenda!"

 

yep if we just ignore a problem, it goes right away

 

Lets be honest now... brutally honest...   This is the internet, and MMOs and online games gives all of us 2 things. 1 is Anonymity... the other is Choice.

 

I've created female avatars... and I've played them.  I didn't feal like anyone treated me any more different.  I could have pretended that I was a girl.. but that would serve the desired purpose that I wanted special treatment. 

 

In online games more then any other facet.. women have the chance to be treated truly as equals... with nobody ever having to know they are women.   In comparison though,  sexism aside, racial stereotypes are just as prevalent.  For example, having a Screen Name with predominantly jewish connotations may reveal a much stronger and vile bias from an even worse crowd.  

 

I think pretending like women are suddenly victims in a world where they get to choose to be whatever they want, and still end up feeling like they are overly sexualized or are discriminated against - even though they choose their characters, they choose what they say, and they choose what and how they play, shows some naivety.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  bliss14

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 535

Ahh devil ether.

1/25/13 1:30:49 PM#50
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by caetftl

[mod edit]

[mod edit]

It reflects more on the idiots giving people "free loot" than the girls getting it.  Do the guys expect a happy ending or something that night?

  felbladex

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/08
Posts: 34

1/25/13 1:32:42 PM#51
Originally posted by Derros

1) Men are pigs when in a large group of other men.  I as a man know this

 

2) Annonimity of the internet allows for 1 to be exponentially increased in severity

 

3) some men view videogames as the "last bastion of maleness" for what reason I have no real idea.

 

I really feel bad when I hear stories like the one you mentioned.  If anything men should want MORE women to be part of "gaming" culture, why not?  more women who have more things in common with you, more friends, more potential girlfriends who share more interests. 

 

They arent going to turn games into My Little Pony (and admit it MANY of you would actually play that)  My wife loves Halo and Metal Gear.

 

THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF

 

To be fair, men treat each other at crap on the internet as well, women just invoke the "Other" or "Not Like Us!" response that has plagued human history.

 

 

Just to point out a fact. My group of friends and no one that I hang out with (whether in large groups or not) are pigs or do/ talk about anything sexist. It's not just that, but I actually associate with people that are bigoted in any way and if someone does come into the fold of the many of us that exhibits such behavior, they get chastised pretty heavily into no longer expressing such prejudiced views around us or just not associating with us. So the whole "Guys are pigs when around each other" goes out the window and turns into "Knuckle dragging guys are pigs when around other similar mouth breathers."

 

The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19400

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/25/13 1:33:55 PM#52
I have never heard of any of the incidents mentioned in the article. Guess they would have been buried on the off topic forums since most have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Mimzel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/07
Posts: 372

1/25/13 1:34:08 PM#53
Sex is only relevant in a few aspects of my life. Mostly regarding sex. I try to keep things honest, and I meet people. Human beings. Some good, some bad - all of them are men or women.
  kadepsyson

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 1:38:02 PM#54

Personally, I find sexism articles written by men to be very interesting.  It is a perspective that isn't as widely seen.  I don't care if the man writes about men being sexist, women being sexist, or both.  I just feel that articles written by men about sexism can be extremely important to show that it isn't just women who see and deal with this.  Both men and women see and deal with this, and they both should write about it and fight it.

 

Honestly though, it is just as sexist to call a woman you've never seen fat and ugly becuase she's a woman, as it is to say all men are pigs who treat women poorly.

El Psy Congroo

  bliss14

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 535

Ahh devil ether.

1/25/13 1:38:25 PM#55
Originally posted by Kyleran
I have never heard of any of the incidents mentioned in the article. Guess they would have been buried on the off topic forums since most have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

Google Jennifer Hepler.  She worked at Bioware.  There is a link somewhere to the tweets she was getting.  Some really tough guys out there had very nice things to say to her.

  Slukjan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/11
Posts: 241

1/25/13 1:39:38 PM#56
Most men that make sexist remarks and stuff are just doing it to get a laugh.  They are what you call "trolls"...making comments just to get a rise our of the person.  I am not sexist and love and respect all women...but somtimes I chuckle at sexist remarks.  You have to admit...sometimes its funny.  But just when it is generalizations like "my wife is too busy doing laundry to play video games".  Stuff like that can be humorous and sometimes its meant to be a joke cracked by a wise guy and not a serious statement.  Comments about rape and violence or threats, however, are not cool.
  Kniknax

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/01/05
Posts: 560

1/25/13 1:39:59 PM#57

Theres millions of people playing games online, and millions of more geeks who prefer movies and tv shows. Your report of a few individuals bullying their fellow players, or even a few hundred sexist people making horrible tweets - this is in no way indicative of men in general!

I know lots of men and women gamers, and have done since I started back in the days of Doom, and I have never heard anyone make sexist remarks. If anyone did, I would be mortified.

Maybe it depends on who you hang out with, just like in real life.

Besides, I've never met an MMO'er who didnt want their partner to join us in our addiction, it makes life so much easier!! :)

"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright

  IG-88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/12
Posts: 134

1/25/13 1:42:11 PM#58

I have no idea what games OP referes to, and the whole thread looks like flaimbait.

 

My main character is a female and has been around for severar years, and never, ever has she/me been subjected to remarks of a sexual kind, being treated different (in a negative way) because of gender or otherwise.

Sure, there have been invites to ingame marriage, flirts  etc, but never anything negative.

Regarding loot, nope, never been given stuff for free becasue of gender.

 

Generalizing like OP does, is a bad thing.

 

  caetftl

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/29/12
Posts: 359

1/25/13 1:46:22 PM#59
Originally posted by bliss14
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by caetftl
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It reflects more on the idiots giving people "free loot" than the girls getting it.  Do the guys expect a happy ending or something that night?

 

It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 
 
  kadepsyson

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 1:51:07 PM#60
Originally posted by Slukjan
But just when it is generalizations like "my wife is too busy doing laundry to play video games".  Stuff like that can be humorous and sometimes its meant to be a joke cracked by a wise guy and not a serious statement.

Sometimes my girlfriend really is too busy doing laundry to play video games...

Other times I am too busy doing my own laundry to play video games...

but either way, we both find plenty of time to play video games together.

 

I'm not sure why the article didn't touch on any of the sexism directed towards men in 2012.  It may not have caught as much attention, but it was there.  I feel that an article about sexism should treat the topic with equality - like how people are supposed to be treated.  So in other words, I'd like to see both the sexist things men said and did, the sexist things women said and did, and perhaps have the article touch on the good that can and did come out of it, such as greater attention brought to the subject.

I am not sure why the article is titled sexism - when it could have been retittled "hatred towards women" just as easily without the article needed to be rewritten.  If someone were to write an article about sexism but not focus on just how women were treated badly by men, I feel that would be a very important topic to read.  Cover both sides of it, cover the bad, cover the good.

It's an important topic, and by just covering women, the author seems to be taking sides rather than covering the whole issue of sexism in gaming.

 

Note that these are my personal feelings about the article, and it has nothing to do with the author as a person.  I want this issue brought to attention, but done so with greater care.

El Psy Congroo

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