Originally posted by superniceguy

Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

 I always chuckle when people say "Lifetime subs" hahaha. That is a garaunteed indication the game is a failure.  Don't say Lotro, TSW, or any other Lifetime sub game is successful because they are not.  Those games are barely hanging on.

Originally posted by Nitth

---

Originally posted by Istavaan
If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

---

Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

Not to speak for him, but I have an outlook that comes to a similar conclusion.

The cash shops and box fees in sub-free models are often criticised as "pay to win".  P2W is one of those horrible idiotic marketing slogans like "cloud" and "web 2.0" that don't really mean anything or rather are so subjective as to be useless for communicating a point.

From my perspective every game is pretty much pay to win.  In other words you must pay at some point or you will be restricted from content, restricted from leveling, held back, or excluded.  The fact is to enjoy any game to its fullest potential you will need to spend money.  Don't pay the sub - you're out of luck.  Don't buy the content in the cash shop - you're out of luck.  The money people have it over those that don't regardless of the model.

Sub-free games have mechanisms in place to encourage cash shop visitation (as do most sub-locked games now).  Games locked behind sub-only paywalls also have mechanisms in place (raid locks, limited dungeon token rewards, time sink grinds) to encourage you to sub longer.

The difference, to me, is that in a sub-free game the money I spend can be enjoyed without having to spend more money or losing access to the stuff I buy (content, items, boosts, cosmetics, etc).  In a sub-locked game I only get to enjoy what I've spent if I'm spending more (keeping my sub active).

I stopped enjoying Rift last fall.  My sub expires this March/April.  All the money I've spent ($300) on the game will be useless and restricted under the current model.  Not only that but the sub time I've paid for is wasted because I'm not playing the game a lot anymore.

In the end it all comes down to a couple factors.  What is the total cost of game play and what do I get (or lose) if I pay or stop paying.  So far all my sub-free games have been less expensive than my sub-locked games and I'm getting as good of an experience or better.  Sorry that was long winded.

---

Originally posted by Fearum

---

Originally posted by Nitth  

---

Originally posted by safire312 Pay as much, as u play, with cap payment method   Because a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before. I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.

---

  That model is very popular in Asia. Interesting how it can work in Asia but not other places..

---

 I would love that pay model.

---

In a perfect world i suppose the more payment models available to the consumer the better.

But i guess as someone else said, Developers and publishers already know in advance how much overhead they need to make up for and how much profits need to be produced in a given time frame.

I went with a sub model. I just do not like being nickle and dimed for every little thing. Extra character slot? Pay up please, need more bank space or another backpack? Open that wallet... Hate that sh*t.

As an aside, is it possible  for developers to have their F2P model and include a sub model, like most games do, BUT, make it so the person that subs has the game as it was before the F2P? If I am paying a sub I want it to be like it was, I don't want to get my Game Company Bucks each month to spend in the game store, I don't want ads in-game, just giveme the game I am paying for like it was before all this F2P BS came about...

Subscripton/p2p.

Cash shops are a cancer.

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by superniceguy

Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

 I don't think I would ever buy a LT sub, what happens if 1 year into the game they change a major core gameplay element you don't like so the game would be ruined for you? MMO's are always changing so a LT sub really doesnt make sense. 

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by superniceguy

Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

 I always chuckle when people say "Lifetime subs" hahaha. That is a garaunteed indication the game is a failure.  Don't say Lotro, TSW, or any other Lifetime sub game is successful because they are not.  Those games are barely hanging on.

They're no less successful than Rift is which also seems to barely hanging on.

---

Originally posted by Torvaldr

---

Originally posted by Nitth

---

Originally posted by Istavaan If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

---

Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

---

Not to speak for him, but I have an outlook that comes to a similar conclusion.

The cash shops and box fees in sub-free models are often criticised as "pay to win".  P2W is one of those horrible idiotic marketing slogans like "cloud" and "web 2.0" that don't really mean anything or rather are so subjective as to be useless for communicating a point.

From my perspective every game is pretty much pay to win.  In other words you must pay at some point or you will be restricted from content, restricted from leveling, held back, or excluded.  The fact is to enjoy any game to its fullest potential you will need to spend money.  Don't pay the sub - you're out of luck.  Don't buy the content in the cash shop - you're out of luck.  The money people have it over those that don't regardless of the model.

Sub-free games have mechanisms in place to encourage cash shop visitation (as do most sub-locked games now).  Games locked behind sub-only paywalls also have mechanisms in place (raid locks, limited dungeon token rewards, time sink grinds) to encourage you to sub longer.

The difference, to me, is that in a sub-free game the money I spend can be enjoyed without having to spend more money or losing access to the stuff I buy (content, items, boosts, cosmetics, etc).  In a sub-locked game I only get to enjoy what I've spent if I'm spending more (keeping my sub active).

I stopped enjoying Rift last fall.  My sub expires this March/April.  All the money I've spent ($300) on the game will be useless and restricted under the current model.  Not only that but the sub time I've paid for is wasted because I'm not playing the game a lot anymore.

In the end it all comes down to a couple factors.  What is the total cost of game play and what do I get (or lose) if I pay or stop paying.  So far all my sub-free games have been less expensive than my sub-locked games and I'm getting as good of an experience or better.  Sorry that was long winded.

---

I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?

---

Originally posted by Ambros123

---

Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

---

TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

---

Speak for yourself.

Well I can see there's no shortage of "p2p zombie" idiots commenting on these forums, apparently 2012 hasn't taught them a single thing.

Not only does P2P often crash as we've seen time and time again in 2012 but it certainly does NOT guarantee quality people as we've all seen from games like WoW. So My suggestion to those who are holding onto that dream in this continuing economic crisis is, dream on.

"The elitism is strong with this one", is what came to mind when I saw the first few comments on this thread. 

For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

What you typed right there is a far cry from some of these games with cash shops that sell obvious enhancers that affect gameplay. There is nothing in the shop at Blizzard that gives anyone an advantage over anyone else. To me that is a HUGE difference.

Originally posted by Slampig
I went with a sub model. I just do not like being nickle and dimed for every little thing. Extra character slot? Pay up please, need more bank space or another backpack? Open that wallet... Hate that sh*t.

 Yeah I know, losing a set amount on a regular basis is so much better than having a choice to spend or not.  I mean, why spend $2 for a backpack slot once and $4 for bankslots once when I can pay $15 a month, every month for as long as I play. /boggle

P2P is dieing, only 1 single P2P game has had more people playing than B2P games like GW1, GW2 is nearing that...and F2P games has made Nexon the second largest game maker on the planet, only EA makes more money and most of that is from console games.

Sure,there are plenty of MMOs with subs that are subpar with low amounts of players...but that is dropping. There have been too many SWTORs in the last 5 years. The quality just isnt there...and once western companies actually learn how to make a GOOD cash shop, with tons of vanity items, mounts and the like, they will be able to match Asian based F2P games in terms of income.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?

Yes, that's very true.  I really believe that any payment model or hybrid of them still requires them to put out a good game or people won't pay.

The latest evolution of the model I'm watching now is Funcom with TSW.  I think it's brilliant to combine box fee, no required sub, a premium status sub option, and the ability to buy permanent premium status.  How they do expacs in the future and how they monetization evolves could heavily influence the industry even if the title is very niche.  I have a huge amount of respect with how flexible and quick they have been to adjust to the market to make their game successful.

A payment model won't make a bad game good and successful, but the wrong payment model could hamper and hinder its success.

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

What you typed right there is a far cry from some of these games with cash shops that sell obvious enhancers that affect gameplay. There is nothing in the shop at Blizzard that gives anyone an advantage over anyone else. To me that is a HUGE difference.

And neither does CS like GW2.  Time efficency is not advatage P2W items, there are purely cosmetic Cash Shops.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

---

Originally posted by Ambros123

---

Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

---

TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

---

 

Speak for yourself.

I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.

---

Originally posted by Torvaldr

---

Originally posted by Nitth   I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?

---

Yes, that's very true.  I really believe that any payment model or hybrid of them still requires them to put out a good game or people won't pay.

The latest evolution of the model I'm watching now is Funcom with TSW.  I think it's brilliant to combine box fee, no required sub, a premium status sub option, and the ability to buy permanent premium status.  How they do expacs in the future and how they monetization evolves could heavily influence the industry even if the title is very niche.  I have a huge amount of respect with how flexible and quick they have been to adjust to the market to make their game successful.

A payment model won't make a bad game good and successful, but the wrong payment model could hamper and hinder its success.

---

Can agree entirely with that.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Well I can see there's no shortage of "p2p zombie" idiots commenting on these forums, apparently 2012 hasn't taught them a single thing.

Not only does P2P often crash as we've seen time and time again in 2012 but it certainly does NOT guarantee quality people as we've all seen from games like WoW. So My suggestion to those who are holding onto that dream in this continuing economic crisis is, dream on.

"The elitism is strong with this one", is what came to mind when I saw the first few comments on this thread. 

For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.

So the thing everyone complained about swtor at launch was the payment model? Nope it was lack of end game, ilum slide show,  no ui customisation, no lfg, poor engine etc.

Hardly anyone complained about the payment model until people started realising the quality of the game wasnt worth the payment due to them releasing the game in alpha shape.

So no swtors faults had nothing to do with payment model and had more to do with releasing an unfinished game on an engine that couldnt handle what they wanted players to use it for.

If subs weredead then no one would be using that model let alone the most succesfull game in the genre

Originally posted by Nitth

 

---

Originally posted by Ambros123

---

Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

---

TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

---

 

Speak for yourself.

Ohhh really... then how bout the constant threads that displeased players made when their LT sub was pretty much null n void, same thing that happened in SWTOR and STO LTers.  MANY were upset and really only the gullible would take a LTer sub.  TSW is a very light pop MMO and many of thier LTers left and signed the game off.  Two cross guilds games I know of had their TWS charters moved to active games which means it's a very small activity or members.  Case n point why I say LT subs are retarded and only the gullible will purchase.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Nitth

 

---

Originally posted by Ambros123

---

Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

---

TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

---

 

Speak for yourself.

I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.

Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.