Originally posted by bcbully

I just don't think this is right guys.

 

People don't build mmorpgs unless they are gamers. I would rather these guys try than get another clone from one of the AAAs.

 

This guy is more like us than them.

..Did you read all the links and closed threads?

This isnt just a "Lack of experience" this is a "Bait and switch" and a ton of misrepresentation and lies. This is about taking 90 thousand Dollars selling a product and then saying the product folks "invested in" is not feasable and it must be done differntly (and rquires more money)

-This is about misrepresentation , not just lack of experience.

Originally posted by RPGForever

Originally posted by Venger

 

Is it a risk? Yep, but the time has come to put up or shut up.

 

 

Excuse me, are you asking me to shut up in a place intended to express opinions?. Excuse me, I do not have any need to take risks, I am a gamer not a Wall Street investor.

Well I don't think anyone else should be risking my money so I'm pretty sure I was taking about myself.  I thought that was pretty clear about that.  Apparently not.

Originally posted by Jacxolope

 

Hmmm- Isnt that exactly what jason Appleton is? An "Armchair Designer and expert at everything" who is now using other peoples Money and changing everything up now that Money is in hand?

I think any of us here could do the same- Some of us are also "game designers" and "idea guys" who first want a solid design before asking for money. I too could cut and paste, pay for facebook likes, lie and hype and promise the World. I too could promise a F2P game which does all and then (once getting 90K) say "oops, my bad..Going to need a Monthly with that"

-That is called Shady in my book and folks have a right to know.

Some of us also want our projects on KS and with all the scamming (and potential scamming) lies, etc...People will have been burned too many times before we are ready. Jason (evidently) wasnt ready.

EDIT: -But as you said- Its your right to spend your money however you wish (and everyones)- You can throw it out the window for all I care (and I think you have, in this case) but time will tell. Its  our right to try and inform people of what we know, suspect and have seen.

No an arm chair designer is someone who sits on their ass and shots at the rafters how they could do better.  Jason is at least trying.

When you get your project up on KS let me know and I'll check it out.  The rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time with.  

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by Jacxolope

 

Hmmm- Isnt that exactly what jason Appleton is? An "Armchair Designer and expert at everything" who is now using other peoples Money and changing everything up now that Money is in hand?

I think any of us here could do the same- Some of us are also "game designers" and "idea guys" who first want a solid design before asking for money. I too could cut and paste, pay for facebook likes, lie and hype and promise the World. I too could promise a F2P game which does all and then (once getting 90K) say "oops, my bad..Going to need a Monthly with that"

-That is called Shady in my book and folks have a right to know.

Some of us also want our projects on KS and with all the scamming (and potential scamming) lies, etc...People will have been burned too many times before we are ready. Jason (evidently) wasnt ready.

EDIT: -But as you said- Its your right to spend your money however you wish (and everyones)- You can throw it out the window for all I care (and I think you have, in this case) but time will tell. Its  our right to try and inform people of what we know, suspect and have seen.

No an arm chair designer is someone who sits on their ass and shots at the rafters how they could do better.  Jason is at least trying.

When you get your project up on KS let me know and I'll check it out.  The rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time with.  

-Oh, my project will be awhile (but there are screenshots I have posted - Real ones- If you care to find them in my posts). I guess the difference is that I am not a profesional and am not biting off more than I can chew. I am shooting for a 2D RPG (not MMO) since I am self taught and have an actual Job which demands much of my time. The last thing I want to do is opverpromise, underdevelop , take peoples money and change things and possibly have nothing to show at the end.

-I will not place my project on KS until I know I can finish it in the manner promised.

Right now I am working with an Artist (since my Art is pretty crappy and is 'placeholder') to redo enough of the assets to make a fully functional demo. Then I have to decide (based on how long the Demo takes) whether in fact it can be finished and is worth it to do so.

-But see, this isnt about me (really) or anyone else for that matter. I know my limits (most do) and will not take a dime until I am sure I can manifest what is promised and in a quality way. At this point I am unsure if its even possible and I have a "good name" that I want to keep and do not qwant to be associated with scams and such.

-Jason is an Armchair Developer with less knowledge than myself- He just took 90 thousand dollars and then changed the rules- I am an "armchair developer" who is going to be looking at a FAR Lower amount , with rules which will not change and a project I have the capabilities to complete- If I am have the slightest hesitation that I am unable to do what I say- I will not be on KS or look for any other funding and will just use this experience to "learn".

Even my "Artist" is a local Tatoo Artist who has never worked in game development (but is damn good) and is currently learning to animate sprites. We are total amatures and self taught and may not have the capabilities to produce anything worth buying- But we are alsp honest with ourselves and know our limits.

EDIT: The quickest I imagine we will have a Demo will be 6 months or so. I will keep you posted though. =)

Originally posted by Venger
Well when you get something I'd love to check it out.  Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it. 

The "emotional" ones seem to be Applegate and followers.

I/We were merely pointing out lies and inconsistincies. The fact is a certain thing was promised before taking a dime, now that more money has been recieved (than originally asked for) he/they have changed everything. IMHO a "contract" of sorts happened upon the first dime recieved.

-The rest was just pretty funny (like the threats and such)

-Absoulutley I will be pimping the Hell out of my game if and when I know its really feasable. Right now it looks terrible =P

But yes, we can agree to disagree. frankly I hope this all works out (for the people who put up money like yourself)- Its a cool idea. A modern UO would be a blessing since I have all but given up on MMOs these days. =/

Originally posted by Venger
Well when you get something I'd love to check it out.  Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it. 

This guy has a point.

Originally posted by RPGForever

Originally posted by Venger
Well when you get something I'd love to check it out.  Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it. 

This guy has a point.

Does he?

When I begin asking for Money I expect srutiny, questions and people to dig into my past and review statements I have made. This is what has been done with gred Monger and jason Appleton. He isnt funding this himself but is asking for miney, has lied and exagerated his past and acted childish when called out on these things.

He has made promises, collected money and changed the rules mid-game.

Again, this isnt about me- My point in even bringing this up was the "armchair developer who thinks they are an expert on everything" statement (which is exactly what Appleton is)

He went from wanting to make an Ipod game to a full fledged 3D MMO to asking stupid questions on the Unity forum to collecting peoples money withing a very short amount of time- Then he ggot emotional when called out and threatened to sue folks (using KS Money) and then flat out threatened a Poster on this board.

-I am saying it now- There will be no game by April and alot of pissed off people who were burned... Look at MO (who actually sold stock rather than beg for cash- Stock which had the potential to gain in value) they had a far more experienced team, more money and far more time- You are being promised a UO inspired MMO which is going to be out in a few Months without so much as a video and a few screenshots of purchased assets.

People have a right to know.

Again, I am not a proffesional dev, I am not begging for your cash and I am not even sure its possible to make a fully functioning game (that works and is fun to play) - I am not making promised nor claiming a thing other than the fact that I am attempting to do something and I will be damn sure it can be done before asking for any money.

-If every KS project had this philosophy there would be far more people willing to pitch in and help developers.

This isnt about me, or anyone else but the one who has already broke promises after getting money, and seems like a scam artist and has been caught in lies, misrepresentaion and half truth. I fully EXPECT my (or anyones) words, internet postings and past to be scrutinized once asking to fund a game with other peoples money.

-You dont see the shadyness in anything listed? Fine. Others do and we have the right to discuss these things and warn others.

EDIT- I am trying to multi-task here and that post was a bit rambling.

I would never start a KS project in order to "make my game"- I guess my point is that "my game" (if and when I EVER reach that point) will be already "made" for the most part but with "placeholder" grahics and assets. Kickstarter would be used to replace those "placeholders" with assets of far superior quality, add music, better sounds and such... As someone (like myself and jason Appleton) who has Zero experience with game development, I do not want to "rip people" off. I do not want to make "promises" which I cannot fulfill nor do I want to bite off more than I can chew.

-Going from no experience to a full fledged MMORPG is something. But his "past" is out there, his postings out there, his lies are out there, his "changing of the rules" AFTER taking money IS OUT THERE. These things ALONG with no experience should be closely examined. He reminds me of a bad used car Salesmen. He has duped people out of almost 100K already selling something which (as he already has admitted) isnt going to be what he has said. he has doubled land parcels (effectivly making everyones parcel's worth half) and God only knows what he is going to do next. And this hurts everyone who ever hopes to use KS for additional funding.

Originally posted by Jacxolope

Originally posted by RPGForever

Originally posted by Venger
Well when you get something I'd love to check it out.  Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it. 

This guy has a point.

Does he?

When I begin asking for Money I expect srutiny, questions and people to dig into my past and review statements I have made. This is what has been done with gred Monger and jason Appleton. He isnt funding this himself but is asking for miney, has lied and exagerated his past and acted childish when called out on these things.

He has made promises, collected money and changed the rules mid-game.

Again, this isnt about me- My point in even bringing this up was the "armchair developer who thinks they are an expert on everything" statement (which is exactly what Appleton is)

He went from wanting to make an Ipod game to a full fledged 3D MMO to asking stupid questions on the Unity forum to collecting peoples money withing a very short amount of time- Then he ggot emotional when called out and threatened to sue folks (using KS Money) and then flat out threatened a Poster on this board.

-I am saying it now- There will be no game by April and alot of pissed off people who were burned... Look at MO (who actually sold stock rather than beg for cash- Stock which had the potential to gain in value) they had a far more experienced team, more money and far more time- You are being promised a UO inspired MMO which is going to be out in a few Months without so much as a video and a few screenshots of purchased assets.

People have a right to know.

Again, I am not a proffesional dev, I am not begging for your cash and I am not even sure its possible to make a fully functioning game (that works and is fun to play) - I am not making promised nor claiming a thing other than the fact that I am attempting to do something and I will be damn sure it can be done before asking for any money.

-If every KS project had this philosophy there would be far more people willing to pitch in and help developers.

This isnt about me, or anyone else but the one who has already broke promises after getting money, and seems like a scam artist and has been caught in lies, misrepresentaion and half truth. I fully EXPECT my (or anyones) words, internet postings and past to be scrutinized once asking to fund a game with other peoples money.

-You dont see the shadyness in anything listed? Fine. Others do and we have the right to discuss these things and warn others.

EDIT- I am trying to multi-task here and that post was a bit rambling.

I would never start a KS project in order to "make my game"- I guess my point is that "my game" (if and when I EVER reach that point) will be already "made" for the most part but with "placeholder" grahics and assets. Kickstarter would be used to replace those "placeholders" with assets of far superior quality, add music, better sounds and such... As someone (like myself and jason Appleton) who has Zero experience with game development, I do not want to "rip people" off. I do not want to make "promises" which I cannot fulfill nor do I want to bite off more than I can chew.

-Going from no experience to a full fledged MMORPG is something. But his "past" is out there, his postings out there, his lies are out there, his "changing of the rules" AFTER taking money IS OUT THERE. These things ALONG with no experience should be closely examined. He reminds me of a bad used car Salesmen. He has duped people out of almost 100K already selling something which (as he already has admitted) isnt going to be what he has said. he has doubled land parcels (effectivly making everyones parcel's worth half) and God only knows what he is going to do next. And this hurts everyone who ever hopes to use KS for additional funding.

There is a HUGE difference between between the game being released in a few months like your saying and us saying that the ALPHA TEST is going to be in April. ALPHA TESTS are nothing more then testing key systems. It's NOT the full game and chances are the full world won't even be finished by then. It's just a chance for us to test some of our systems and Stress test our servers nothing more and nothing less. 

Once we see how the Alpha goes we will be figuring out the Beta date then depending how that goes then we will decide on a Launch date. More then likely the release date is still a year away or possibly even more but we will be doing our best to get the game released as soon as possible.

No where did we ever say that the Game would be released in April!

-My Bad for mistyping and misunderstanding.

I appologize for also spreading bad information- I had thought I had read that somewhere but upon looking closer I was mistaken (and badly, at that)

-That sounds much more realistic and honestly was one of my issues. I was thinking (again, mistakenly so-) that this was being rolled out in April. From drawing board to full fledged MMO in a few months.

Again, my mistake. For that I am sorry.

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by Jacxolope

 

....

No an arm chair designer is someone who sits on their ass and shots at the rafters how they could do better.  Jason is at least trying.

When you get your project up on KS let me know and I'll check it out.  The rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time with.  

this is what i think too. at least he is trying. i guess he really wants to. hope it has continiuty

This is a very common mistake I've seen Jac, in that, too many people are putting out far too many assumptions or mixed "facts" about things I've said for others to read and assume are accurate and then continue perpetuating these "facts" until someone finally looks for themselves.

I honestly lost count of how many mis-interpreted "facts" have been used in various posts focused on bashing the game or myself that are completely un-true or very twisted versions.

The way I see it, there isn't much reason for a great deal of the "hate" and the only way people can justify blowing up with long winded rants is to support it with things made up or twisted around and then keep repeating it in every possible thread.

My team is on task day and night to make progress on the game. I think something a lot of people assume as well is that this game will be like Wow or other AAA titles built with multi million dollar budgets. If I had access to those resources, I guarantee I'd develop the next big MMO because I know what players want because I am one and have been one for decades. I'm attempting to show the big players in the industry that there is still demand for what we are building and that the community will support it. We aren't trying to build the next big MMO with our small budget. We are building something with the key elements needed to enjoy the features many of us have grown to love and appreciate in an MMO.

I'm honestly looking forward to the time when the community here is able to see all we are doing and rather than constantly trying to bash me or the game, they will see that not only were they wrong about so much of what they have tried so hard to ear down, but that they will be as vocal about our successes as they have been our assumed faults.

As many have seen, I can get pretty fired up, but I also don't hold grudges. Someday, I do believe the community here will come together and appreciate what we have done. At least I hope.

Originally posted by Mogus

This is a very common mistake I've seen Jac, in that, too many people are putting out far too many assumptions or mixed "facts" about things I've said for others to read and assume are accurate and then continue perpetuating these "facts" until someone finally looks for themselves.

I honestly lost count of how many mis-interpreted "facts" have been used in various posts focused on bashing the game or myself that are completely un-true or very twisted versions.

The way I see it, there isn't much reason for a great deal of the "hate" and the only way people can justify blowing up with long winded rants is to support it with things made up or twisted around and then keep repeating it in every possible thread.

My team is on task day and night to make progress on the game. I think something a lot of people assume as well is that this game will be like Wow or other AAA titles built with multi million dollar budgets. If I had access to those resources, I guarantee I'd develop the next big MMO because I know what players want because I am one and have been one for decades. I'm attempting to show the big players in the industry that there is still demand for what we are building and that the community will support it. We aren't trying to build the next big MMO with our small budget. We are building something with the key elements needed to enjoy the features many of us have grown to love and appreciate in an MMO.

I'm honestly looking forward to the time when the community here is able to see all we are doing and rather than constantly trying to bash me or the game, they will see that not only were they wrong about so much of what they have tried so hard to ear down, but that they will be as vocal about our successes as they have been our assumed faults.

As many have seen, I can get pretty fired up, but I also don't hold grudges. Someday, I do believe the community here will come together and appreciate what we have done. At least I hope.

 

Mister Appleton with all my respects wanted to ask you what made you change your mind. I was following you in your forums since you said your were not writing here anymore. Do not take me wrong I am not saying you should not write here due to what you said just perhaps there is a good reason for you to return. What you have outlined in you website about how the game will be is really good and the kind of game I would love to play since I have always prefered the economical aspect of games such as gather, farming and craft. If your idea is finally developed and the game is launched you will succeed and all this you are now passing through will be forgotten with the shine of your winning.

If things can remain civil, I'll make myself available in case legitamate questions pop up.

It's when someone is asking a loaded question under a sea of speculative nonsense that I simply can't stomach.

If everyone plays nice, I'll be available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi18CnpcvPk

Ever see a fat guy throw a leg kick? haha

That video was shot in the old gym I used to own. It's more funny than anything else but some of you might get a kick out of it. :)

In order to keep the flow of information rolling I would also like to add the following article to the list of resources here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/893/feature/7055/Jason-Appleton-Responds-to-Controversy.html

Yes we have made some mistakes in the past. We aren't perfect and we will make mistakes. But I would like to think that we can start put some of the past behind us and really start working toward the future.

This morning I was looking up some Youtube videos about Greed Monger and I came across some comments on one suggesting that I was actually a Fake ID of Jason's If the person who made those suggestions are on these forums I would like to assure you that that is compeletly false.

Ok So who exactly is James Proctor? Well I'm a 28 year old Gamer from Portland, Maine. When I was 19 or 20 I was going through some issues in my life and I wanted nothing more then to create a Virtual World I could get lost in. I started Researching MMOs and looking into what I would need to Know in order to create my own. I started Learning C++ and C#. My Journey would also take me to Python, Java, JavaScript, and other languages. I continued to study Programming while also forming an idea for my "Perfect" MMO. 

Over the years I have had the chance to meet and work with many professionals in the Gaming industry some of which I still have contact with to this day. They include employees from Sony as well as freelancers working on the BioShock games and include every aspect of Game Development from art, to music, to Programming, to Design. 

Fast forward to October of 2012... In October I was in between personal projects using Unity3D. I was on the forums browsing through what other indie developers were working on trying to come up with a small scale project I could start working on. I came across a Post by a Guy with the Forum name ElectricCrow. The post really jumped out at me because alot of the ideas listed for it were the ideas I had hidden away in my Game Design Document for my Perfect MMO. I contacted ElectricCrow (Jason) and we started talking. Soon after that I found my self on the team helping to get things setup and ready for the KickStarter Campaign.

Jason gave me my first task which was to take the assets he had and create a little town with some furnished houses he could use for the KickStarter Video. I added many things to that scene both from a world building perspective and from a Programming Persepective. Many of which were never seen in that video. I created a Deer AI and Wolf AI. The Wolf AI had needs modeled after the AI from the Sims games. They needed to Sleep, to Eat, When their hunger got to low they would go hunt the deer to increase their hunger... Little small things yet things that added life to the world were added that were never shown in the video. I spent a good bit of time working on that demo. 

Well that's pretty much all about me. Now I find my self living my dream as the Lead Programmer for Greed Monger just as much a real person as the day I entered this world. Below is also a link to my personal Facebook page. I have most everything private on it but you should be able to see the date I joined which was January 31st 2009 A LONG time before Greed Monger came to be. You will see that I was a member of the Class of 2004 at Deering High School here in Portland Maine. Also feel free to add me if your on facebook as well! - http://www.facebook.com/JamesProctor2011

Originally posted by Mogus

If things can remain civil, I'll make myself available in case legitamate questions pop up.

It's when someone is asking a loaded question under a sea of speculative nonsense that I simply can't stomach.

If everyone plays nice, I'll be available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi18CnpcvPk

Ever see a fat guy throw a leg kick? haha

That video was shot in the old gym I used to own. It's more funny than anything else but some of you might get a kick out of it. :)

Lol don't mess with this guy, you can get a broken leg, that is the hidden message lol.

Hello Jason, and other members of his team that post here. i wont waste any time:  What Jason is doing with "Greed Monger" is something that i could see myself doing. Why? Because the ability to lead people, be creative, communicate, delegate, and manage talent is not something everyone can do well. Im sure you might be thinking youve heard this kind of statement before by people supporting "Greed Monger", but i can assure you i am not a fanboy or a naysayer.

I think that if i had the resources ( money and connections) i would aim to make an mmo and bring together some great rising minds to help me make it a reality. The way i see it is, a great idea for an mmo and real design elements and fun systems are just as important as the programmer that codes it, or an artist that can bring it to life.

Some of us excel and succeed as communicators, mediators, creators, managers, and so on. The point im trying to make is simple, "Times have changed, a guy with a great idea is now just as important as a guy with technical skills. The project that succeeds is not the one made up of 30 yr industry pros only, its the project thats listens to customers, adapts with time, and maintains a solid buisness model"

I think a lot of the bad blood here has to do with people saying to themselves "What gives him the right? what makes him so special, why should he get to make the mmo of his dreams? why? just becuase hes rich and has all these connections means he can get away with this?" this type of thinking is based on personal emotions, and doesnt make for a real valid debate basis.

I wasnt able to hook into the kickstarter for "Greed Monger" for personal finance reasons at the time, but i sure was considering helping out. In the end all i have to say is this: "Surrounded by professionals in a working environment "The guy that knows how to talk to people" can become even more valuable than who hes talking to."

PS. a few questions now that you guys are here:

1. Will you choose to involve testers as early on into the project as possible to ensure you get the most out of the alpha/beta stages

2. will your buisness model and pay options reflect the expected longevity of your title? if yes, how so?

3. what will you guys be doing to maximize customer and tester feedback? do you have faith that your forum Mods are good enough/ enough of them currently to give you the real collection of data you need?

4. what is the current state of your systems designs? even if only on paper, if you could give a %, what is the current % completion would you estimate of all the systems and important mechanics?

5. If nothing really stands in your way "technically: server tech, art, assets, engine" then what ARE your primary focus' current or down the line?

Thanks for your time,

Unkillable

Originally posted by Jacxolope

-My Bad for mistyping and misunderstanding.

I appologize for also spreading bad information- I had thought I had read that somewhere but upon looking closer I was mistaken (and badly, at that)

-That sounds much more realistic and honestly was one of my issues. I was thinking (again, mistakenly so-) that this was being rolled out in April. From drawing board to full fledged MMO in a few months.

Again, my mistake. For that I am sorry.

Takes a big person to admit when they are wrong, I commend you.

Originally posted by Unkillable

PS. a few questions now that you guys are here:

1. Will you choose to involve testers as early on into the project as possible to ensure you get the most out of the alpha/beta stages

2. will your buisness model and pay options reflect the expected longevity of your title? if yes, how so?

3. what will you guys be doing to maximize customer and tester feedback? do you have faith that your forum Mods are good enough/ enough of them currently to give you the real collection of data you need?

4. what is the current state of your systems designs? even if only on paper, if you could give a %, what is the current % completion would you estimate of all the systems and important mechanics?

5. If nothing really stands in your way "technically: server tech, art, assets, engine" then what ARE your primary focus' current or down the line?

Thanks for your time,

Unkillable

#1. Yes, we will be letting in trickles of KS Backers as early as possible to help us with testing.

#2. Yes, at launch we will have 6,000 Player Parcels of Land spoken for by approx 1,500 people. So, provided we do what we plan to do in the development of the game, we expect demand for land parcels to be high which will of course be cause for a secondary market of which we will make 15% of the final sales of such parcels as a fee for transferring permissions.

We are looking at some other options as well that will be discussed openly once we are further in development.

#3. We wont just be relying on forum discussions for feedback. We will have means in place for private communication with our testers. 

#4. We have people working on many elements of the game. Some are focused solely on completing the transition into Hero while others are building the world and developing the systems for the game either using already imported assets or using placeholders. Due to what comes stock in Hero, I'd say we are already further along than we were originally using Unity. At the same time, with Hero, we are finding many new options unfold as we further implement the systems we had in Unity and are furthering our development into those directions as well.

#5. I'm not sure what you're asking. What is our primary focus down the line? In regards to what?

Thanks!