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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

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238 posts found
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/23/13 12:27:46 PM#141
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Phelcher
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

They are coming.

To fall into the very same "themepark trap". I really cannot wait for the excuses to come rolling in from the sandbox crowd when they fail just as spectacularly.

Thats going to be quite interesting... After hearing them go on (and on...) about sand boxes, it will be fascinating to hear the excuses that get offered up... ^^

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/23/13 12:30:17 PM#142
Sir, I believe I like the cut of your jib.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 12:48:42 PM#143
Originally posted by MurlockDance

I think you guys are confusing the fact that you can choose to be self-reliant with being forced to be self-reliant. I prefer the former, and I usually choose to hang out with other players since the whole point of MMOs is to be sociable... I certainly would not pay a subscription for a lobby game, and I would not pay 60 dollars for a game like ToR with the entire world part ripped out, or forced to be single player.

 

TOR is F2P. SP games are $60 a pop. You don't play those?

  Thelric

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/11
Posts: 26

1/23/13 12:50:46 PM#144

I like my open world populated. I personally avoid overly populated points and meet more people outside exploring than inside. Just because one has a particular experience, this does not speak for the rest since we all have different playstyles. More is better than less in an MMO.  Rather than making it less of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game and taking from the idea of senseless waiting and grouping up in Player Hubs like FPS games do...I'd rather see the world populated by not just gamers, but more player content.

What we need is not less places to explore along others, but more things to do to make players constantly move about. There's always room from improvement in what can be done to give players a purpose in the gaming world. This is something that has always been lacking in most mmo's. What the OP has experienced is certainly a lack of purpose for players to be waiting around just to do mindless raiding over and over. Games such as wow have gotten caught up in the gear grind. It's nothing new. I personally avoid that sort of gameplay. If there is nothing to do in the open world because devs spent most resources making dynamic content in instances, ofcourse player activity is going to move towards those instances.

In the other hand, if developers start concentrating on the player experience in the open world. There are things such as easter egg hunting such as collectibles, resource gathering system in place which can be ranked up extensively, random rare resources to hunt for, hidden loot through puzzles, or even worth while world encounters among other more well thought out ideas for those looking for a challenge. The development of new ideas in MMO's needs to continue, not stop.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 12:51:10 PM#145
Originally posted by laokoko

I never really get why people care that the world is empty. 

I understand for pvp you need people to play with.  But take GW2 for example, who even care if the world is empty or not.  There isn't even much to do in there. 

I mean, most of the dynamic event are soloable.  Those that have champion mob you can just skip it, it is no big deal.  I mean other people play dark fall before, do you ever hear them say, "oh wow, there is a monster I can't kill and no one want to kill it".

And people keep saying exploring.  What is there to explore if you already been to a place.  It is not like some random thing pop up and you get excited.  To me virtual world is boring and unexcited unless it have pvp. 

That is the point. It is about gameplay option. A virtual persistent world is useless if you don't have compelling gameplay in there.

And this idea about exploration is just meh ... the first time is exploration, the second time is commute. And few devs can make interesting big world that you can explore for any significant amount of time. Also .. endless terrain is not interesting.

But i digress. Even if you want to explore, there is no need to have a persistent world. An instance with the size of SKYRIM will suffice.

  RefMinor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

Hipster

1/23/13 12:51:54 PM#146
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Phelcher
Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

They are coming.

To fall into the very same "themepark trap". I really cannot wait for the excuses to come rolling in from the sandbox crowd when they fail just as spectacularly.

Thats going to be quite interesting... After hearing them go on (and on...) about sand boxes, it will be fascinating to hear the excuses that get offered up... ^^

Actually I was referring to both sandbox and themepark, eso will be a themepark but they won't be neglecting the virtual world side of things, Narius is mistaken if he thinks the future is AAA lobby based MMORPGs.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 1:09:46 PM#147
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

Actually I was referring to both sandbox and themepark, eso will be a themepark but they won't be neglecting the virtual world side of things, Narius is mistaken if he thinks the future is AAA lobby based MMORPGs.

May be .. no one can predict the future perfectly. However, if you look at the past, i don't see virtual world a huge reason for success in online games. Look at what are successful lately in online games ...

- LOL

- WOT

- Diablo 3

- Borderland 2

....

None has a persistent online world. The only one that comes close is PS2 ... and mainly because it is pvp. We will see how firefall will flare with large scale TPS pve.

And if you talk about the future, you don't think the next Diablo expansion, Borderland, PoE, Marvel Heroes ... are going to AAA lobby base? Surely there may be some vritual world games, but if you seriously believe there is a gaming future without these lobby games, i have a bridge to sell you.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2539

World > Quest Progression

1/23/13 1:12:44 PM#148
Im anxiously awaiting the next way this same subject can be asked. I think it's up to five now if I'm not mistaken, each culminating to the same outcome. We all have our preference and viewpoint regarding, well, everything in life and this is no different. Want a "majority view"? Either put polls up asking if others agree or look to entities that may know real numbers. Like, say, Blizzard. If an instanced world with no one in it is what most players want or care about why did Blizzard implement CRZ? That fact alone answers this thread.
  RefMinor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

Hipster

1/23/13 1:15:51 PM#149
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

Actually I was referring to both sandbox and themepark, eso will be a themepark but they won't be neglecting the virtual world side of things, Narius is mistaken if he thinks the future is AAA lobby based MMORPGs.

May be .. no one can predict the future perfectly. However, if you look at the past, i don't see virtual world a huge reason for success in online games. Look at what are successful lately in online games ...

- LOL

- WOT

- Diablo 3

- Borderland 2

....

None has a persistent online world. The only one that comes close is PS2 ... and mainly because it is pvp. We will see how firefall will flare with large scale TPS pve.

And if you talk about the future, you don't think the next Diablo expansion, Borderland, PoE, Marvel Heroes ... are going to AAA lobby base? Surely there may be some vritual world games, but if you seriously believe there is a gaming future without these lobby games, i have a bridge to sell you.

You are the one telling people that MMOs will become lobby based, I am not trying to push virtual worlds into non MMOs, ESO, EQ:Next, Archeage amongst others are not your favoured lobby games but are full AAA MMORPGs, the virtual world continues, whether you sell your lobby based bridge to anyone here or not.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 1:28:56 PM#150
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

You are the one telling people that MMOs will become lobby based, I am not trying to push virtual worlds into non MMOs, ESO, EQ:Next, Archeage amongst others are not your favoured lobby games but are full AAA MMORPGs, the virtual world continues, whether you sell your lobby based bridge to anyone here or not.

What do you mean by "will"? Aren't a lot of MMO already have lobby based gameplay. I didn't say all of them, did i? But isn't it true that there are many MMOs with lobby-based gameplay?

In fact, almost all end-game pve gameplay in WOW, STO, DDO ... (and a long list of MMOs) are lobby based. Do you disagree?

  Myria

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 550

1/23/13 1:50:57 PM#151
Originally posted by nariusseldon

In fact, almost all end-game pve gameplay in WOW, STO, DDO ... (and a long list of MMOs) are lobby based. Do you disagree?

It's not clear if you even know what "lobby based" means or not. It does not, in point of fact, mean 'a game that has instances'. It does not even mean 'a game that can be played as essentially lobby based if I want to play it that way'.

Multiple persons in this thread have stated that they do not in fact play their MMO of choice anything like a 'lobby game', games you say *are* lobby games.

Until and unless you can provide actual evidence -- not your assumptions, not your surmises, and not "that's what my guild did in game X some indeterminant time ago and it's pretty clear that I never really played the game at all" assertions, actual evidence that a majority, or even significant minority, of the playerbase never goes into the game world -- I'll take their assertions far more seriously than I take your self-serving assumptions.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

1/23/13 1:53:43 PM#152
Originally posted by laokoko

I never really get why people care that the world is empty. 

I understand for pvp you need people to play with.  But take GW2 for example, who even care if the world is empty or not.  There isn't even much to do in there. 

I mean, most of the dynamic event are soloable.  Those that have champion mob you can just skip it, it is no big deal.  I mean other people play dark fall before, do you ever hear them say, "oh wow, there is a monster I can't kill and no one want to kill it".

And people keep saying exploring.  What is there to explore if you already been to a place.  It is not like some random thing pop up and you get excited.  To me virtual world is boring and unexcited unless it have pvp. 

Yes, in the virtual world created by ArenaNet...

 

GuildWars2 failed, because as you got older and explored more, the frontier has safety harlets everywhere like in the earlier "zones". So as you traveled off away from society, things never got harder, they only stayed reletive to your level, never incresing in difficulty.

 

But why pick GW2 to discuss... it cost nothing to play and was meant to be all YOU wanted. Imagine of that open area had not lookout points, no safety and you were left to explore without harbor. 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

1/23/13 2:00:01 PM#153
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

You are the one telling people that MMOs will become lobby based, I am not trying to push virtual worlds into non MMOs, ESO, EQ:Next, Archeage amongst others are not your favoured lobby games but are full AAA MMORPGs, the virtual world continues, whether you sell your lobby based bridge to anyone here or not.

What do you mean by "will"? Aren't a lot of MMO already have lobby based gameplay. I didn't say all of them, did i? But isn't it true that there are many MMOs with lobby-based gameplay?

In fact, almost all end-game pve gameplay in WOW, STO, DDO ... (and a long list of MMOs) are lobby based. Do you disagree?

Dude...

 

Give ur troll a rest. You post history is all anyone needs to read, to see how little you know about MMORPG's.  In every post you constantly say that the best games and where everything is headed is instanced rooms, with action PvP..

So either stick by your premonitions and take the heat for all your thread-crapping, or STFU..! You cannot come into every thread and incessantly keep telling people how things are going to be, then say "I am not saying that"...   when you've puked that same idea in every thread.

Lets face it, you only know World of Warcraft and have no understanding of Dungeon & Dragons...

 

Your a kid gamer who likes to be entertained, you are not out seeking adventure.

All you want (You've repeatedly told everyone this), is to sit in a game and told when you can enter a room and fight... you like to sit in a lobby. But there is more to World of Warcraft than a lobby... it just become a lobby game, because you have not realized the game is boring now and you should've stop playing that kiddie game about 5 years ago. Once you graduate from the idea of WoW you will see that open world design is the future, is what we all yearn again..

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Hedeon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/27/05
Posts: 927

1/23/13 2:36:46 PM#154
Originally posted by Myria
Originally posted by nariusseldon

In fact, almost all end-game pve gameplay in WOW, STO, DDO ... (and a long list of MMOs) are lobby based. Do you disagree?

It's not clear if you even know what "lobby based" means or not. It does not, in point of fact, mean 'a game that has instances'. It does not even mean 'a game that can be played as essentially lobby based if I want to play it that way'.

Multiple persons in this thread have stated that they do not in fact play their MMO of choice anything like a 'lobby game', games you say *are* lobby games.

Until and unless you can provide actual evidence -- not your assumptions, not your surmises, and not "that's what my guild did in game X some indeterminant time ago and it's pretty clear that I never really played the game at all" assertions, actual evidence that a majority, or even significant minority, of the playerbase never goes into the game world -- I'll take their assertions far more seriously than I take your self-serving assumptions.

will have to disagree with you, the time when you close a set number of people into their own personal version of a "part of the world" it is lobby based gaming, just without a handy instant run tool...which is not a quality.

I do like to have major quest updates in instances, in more or less hard to reach places...the travel to the instances in a group/raid should be a must imo.

  Swiftrevoir

Novice Member

Joined: 8/13/05
Posts: 162

1/23/13 2:57:15 PM#155
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Swiftrevoir
When and if this ever happens to MMOs I will be back on a full diet of UnmassivelySingleplayerOfflineRPGs.  I have quit several MMOs already that just had the feel of being in a lobby waiting for action.  When this happens with a game I go back to prancing and gallivanting in games like Skyrim......and have a BLAST!

wait .. why? If you like SKYRIM, why discriminate against MMOs that play like SKYRIM? Shouldn't you like that instead?

Personally i would play MMOs like a SP game if it plays as a fun SP game.

I think what I said was being taken out of context.  Skyrim never puts you in a lobby.  While you're able to warp around using the map I still prefer to travel manually a lot of the time.  I would love to play an MMO that plays like a single player RPG.  I'm not sure why you think I was descriminating against it. 

What I meant was that if MMOs take out the sense of exploration and adventure....I will not play MMOs.  Period.  I will play my single player games and if I want to play online I'll most likely just keep playing the FPS games I have lying around.  Chivalry, Planetside 2, ect.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 3:24:46 PM#156
Originally posted by Phelcher

 

But why pick GW2 to discuss... it cost nothing to play and was meant to be all YOU wanted. Imagine of that open area had not lookout points, no safety and you were left to explore without harbor. 

Because it is one of the successful MMOs released recently.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 3:34:56 PM#157
Originally posted by Swiftrevoir
 

I think what I said was being taken out of context.  Skyrim never puts you in a lobby.  While you're able to warp around using the map I still prefer to travel manually a lot of the time.  I would love to play an MMO that plays like a single player RPG.  I'm not sure why you think I was descriminating against it. 

What I meant was that if MMOs take out the sense of exploration and adventure....I will not play MMOs.  Period.  I will play my single player games and if I want to play online I'll most likely just keep playing the FPS games I have lying around.  Chivalry, Planetside 2, ect.

ah .. i get you. If adventure & exploration is what you want, then you should play your game short term, and stop when you consume the content.

For example, if you play STO and follow the mission episodes, there are plenty of adventure and exploration .. just because the content is new. When you get to end-game, the only thing left is progression and repeated content. In that sense, you can always play the "leveling" part of the MMO for exploration and adventure.

The same is true for almost any themepark MMO.

Or you can play SP games. In fact, if you want exploration and adventure, you can play MMO like SP games.

  Swiftrevoir

Novice Member

Joined: 8/13/05
Posts: 162

1/23/13 4:25:10 PM#158

Whether or not I have seen every inch of the world in MMO X it still has to be there.  I have to know I can ride my horse to that particular vista I've become fond of and look out and reminisce over the good times I've had in the past.  Maybe I don't do this too often but I know I love the freedom to do so.  And the new tinies that are catching up to me who are traveling through the same lands should not be deprived the same luxury.  Where it would not be me at the top of the vista, it would be them in my stead.   

I do love endgame in my MMOs but I still make use of the older content in some fashion or another.  It may not be the desired use but I'm a romantic at heart and I love to take in sights and dream.  I do this in real life too.  I don't hike very often but when I do I sometimes like to go back to the same areas I've visited before.  It may be the same place but I'm a different person at that point so the land around me changes perceptually. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  1/23/13 4:32:14 PM#159
Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

Whether or not I have seen every inch of the world in MMO X it still has to be there.  I have to know I can ride my horse to that particular vista I've become fond of and look out and reminisce over the good times I've had in the past.  Maybe I don't do this too often but I know I love the freedom to do so.  And the new tinies that are catching up to me who are traveling through the same lands should not be deprived the same luxury.  Where it would not be me at the top of the vista, it would be them in my stead.   

I do love endgame in my MMOs but I still make use of the older content in some fashion or another.  It may not be the desired use but I'm a romantic at heart and I love to take in sights and dream.  I do this in real life too.  I don't hike very often but when I do I sometimes like to go back to the same areas I've visited before.  It may be the same place but I'm a different person at that point so the land around me changes perceptually. 

You certainly are a romantic, and differ from most players i know, including myself, who cares more about optimizing the build's combat effectiveness and progression (level, gear, .....).

At the same time, i don't think you even need a MMO to do all that you describe. What you said can be done in SKYRIM. In fact, it is probably BETTER done in a SP open world game because the world can "remember" your specific actions.

 

  RefMinor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

Hipster

1/23/13 4:45:21 PM#160
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

Whether or not I have seen every inch of the world in MMO X it still has to be there.  I have to know I can ride my horse to that particular vista I've become fond of and look out and reminisce over the good times I've had in the past.  Maybe I don't do this too often but I know I love the freedom to do so.  And the new tinies that are catching up to me who are traveling through the same lands should not be deprived the same luxury.  Where it would not be me at the top of the vista, it would be them in my stead.   

I do love endgame in my MMOs but I still make use of the older content in some fashion or another.  It may not be the desired use but I'm a romantic at heart and I love to take in sights and dream.  I do this in real life too.  I don't hike very often but when I do I sometimes like to go back to the same areas I've visited before.  It may be the same place but I'm a different person at that point so the land around me changes perceptually. 

You certainly are a romantic, and differ from most players i know, including myself, who cares more about optimizing the build's combat effectiveness and progression (level, gear, .....).

At the same time, i don't think you even need a MMO to do all that you describe. What you said can be done in SKYRIM. In fact, it is probably BETTER done in a SP open world game because the world can "remember" your specific actions.

 

Really it boils down to the fact YOU don't like MMORPG's, maybe you should try a game like D3, that would suit you better.

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