Originally posted by xerax

Originally posted by JamesP

I'm sort of confused here.

In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.

 

Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...

 

I just really fail to see the logic in all of that? 

 

James, you and I seem to have a very different way of doing business.

When I make a promise to a client or an investor their is only one evaluating question. Did or didn't i deliver on that promise. "Why" is irrelevant to my customer most of the time.

This is an industry where consumers have been cheated , ripped off / had change forced on them or out right lied too on numerous occasions. Sure there are haters and fanboys in equal measure but the vast majority of us are just suspicous / jaded consumers who will run a mile at the first sign that a developer is not delivering what was promised for whatever reason.

I want to offer you a couple of tips which i would like you to atleast consider:

Manage expectations, only offer what you know you can deliver. if something isn't certian don't mention it. People will love you for over delivering later.

Don't ever try to agrue with haters however "right" you are it will never help the situation.  Some of your potential customers may just read 1 or 2 posts in a thread in which you get angry and decide your a nutter because they havn't read the other posts which illicited that response from you. This is particuliarly important in an international forums because acceptable standard of behaviour very hugely arround the world. Getting angry is not nearly as acceptable outside the US in the business world.

 

Since the original post he responded to was likely mine,  all I'm going to say on this point is,  (as someone who works with Unity for mobile development),  if the licensing fee was a problem (which is actually not that bad as Unity is great for Indie development)  that should have been a red flag prior to a crowdfunding campaign.  

Unity has never been shady about its licensing fees,  and their technical and sales staff have run a number of demos as well as hosted developer meetings here (in Houston).  

Now, considering Jason mentioned that he was ignorant of the fact that his engine could not complete the desired results based on James' recommendations,  I'm not saying it isn't understandable why a change was made.  1) Developers like working with products they are more familiar with.  2) Any excess of programming in Unity to get a desired result could cost more in the long run depending on what that result is.  Thats part of the reason to use an engine, to cut costs on building from scratch.  

The "logic" of it all, was that it was a poor initial decision, one that a Kickstarter Campaign was run on.  I personally have no stake in the game either way,  but I would say, if I were an "investor" in this product,  I would be wary.  Lack of information including the stage of development,  concrete timetables on when updates or products can be expected, and the intention of additional kickstarters in lack of these is more of a red flag then a green light.  

If nothing else, at least, maybe, Greedmonger can see my point.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by xmenty

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

I'll rather give my money for this game than whatever WoW clone themepark lobby-crap comes out next. If this game is never released, I would still be in the same situation - with only 100% shit MMOs to play, or nothing at all.

 

This is typical desperate and hard up sandbox gamers.

You are one of those people that contribute to rally for bad games and bad dev cos you cannot just say no.

The sandbox games will never get better because of your kind of attitude.

You need to have some high standard in gaming and say no to sweet write up without even seeing any gameplay.

 

I'm sorry, but I have tried that tactic for about 10 years now and it's not working. All we get is more gear treadmill bullcrap themepark games over and over and over again.

I'm pretty convinced by now that us "hardcore" sandbox gamers are not going to see another "AAA" sandbox title ever again, because that's not what the masses want. I want it, though, and if it means I'll have to chalk it up being an indie title, so be it. Indie titles have the potential to grow over time into a great game (Minecraft, EVE Online).

So no. I'm done giving my money to WoW clones and games that claim they're not WoW clones but in reality are WoW clones. I'm also done waiting for the AAA sandbox title to just drop out of the sky and putting my money where my mouth is. I've now backed both Greed Monger and Pathfinder. If both of those fail, I'll back the next one and then the next one until one dev gets it right or until they stop trying.

If this costs me around 60-100 bucks a year it's money well spent, because I've got something to look forward, even if it's going to lead to disappointment.

 

I want a good sandbox game. I just don't think the HeroEngine is capable.

If these guys are relying on exising tech then there's going to be nothing fruitful gained.

Hate to put it that simply, but that's the deal. How can a 2008 engine improve upon anything?

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by xmenty

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

I'll rather give my money for this game than whatever WoW clone themepark lobby-crap comes out next. If this game is never released, I would still be in the same situation - with only 100% shit MMOs to play, or nothing at all.

 

This is typical desperate and hard up sandbox gamers.

You are one of those people that contribute to rally for bad games and bad dev cos you cannot just say no.

The sandbox games will never get better because of your kind of attitude.

You need to have some high standard in gaming and say no to sweet write up without even seeing any gameplay.

 

I'm sorry, but I have tried that tactic for about 10 years now and it's not working. All we get is more gear treadmill bullcrap themepark games over and over and over again.

I'm pretty convinced by now that us "hardcore" sandbox gamers are not going to see another "AAA" sandbox title ever again, because that's not what the masses want. I want it, though, and if it means I'll have to chalk it up being an indie title, so be it. Indie titles have the potential to grow over time into a great game (Minecraft, EVE Online).

So no. I'm done giving my money to WoW clones and games that claim they're not WoW clones but in reality are WoW clones. I'm also done waiting for the AAA sandbox title to just drop out of the sky and putting my money where my mouth is. I've now backed both Greed Monger and Pathfinder. If both of those fail, I'll back the next one and then the next one until one dev gets it right or until they stop trying.

If this costs me around 60-100 bucks a year it's money well spent, because I've got something to look forward, even if it's going to lead to disappointment.

 

I want a good sandbox game. I just don't think the HeroEngine is capable.

If these guys are relying on exising tech then there's going to be nothing fruitful gained.

Hate to put it that simply, but that's the deal. How can a 2008 engine improve upon anything?

If you want to put it that way, it really has very little to do with the engine itself.  Talented developers can take an engine and modify it to fit their needs.  It really will depend on costs in comparison to what exactly they are trying to get done.

For example, I believe it was Bethesda who once said how something as simple as climbing a ladder in TES messed with the AI and engine...  it would have been too costly for them to modify all of that just to incorporate ladders, so.. that explains that.

For an indie developer, you want to spend as little as possible in programming and modifying things on your own.  There would be no way that they could create an engine from scratch...

Maskedweasel is right,

 it's really not the engine that dictates what's possible in most cases and we aren't relying solely on what comes with the Engine to build Greed Monger. Our housing model / Architects tool is being coded and modeled from scratch.

There are some restrictions for each Engine and some do things better than others, but Hero has been updated to 2.0 recently which is still partially underway which is making some things that weren't possible in the past, now possible which has helped.

I believe that though Unity is great for Single Player games and COULD be used for an MMO, Hero's sole focus is on MMO development and as such contains a variety of toolsets that would otherwise cost the developers a large sum to license themselves, and it's all included. I believe Hero cares about their development community and is constantly looking for new ways to benefit us all which I like a lot.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I want a good sandbox game. I just don't think the HeroEngine is capable.

If these guys are relying on exising tech then there's going to be nothing fruitful gained.

Hate to put it that simply, but that's the deal. How can a 2008 engine improve upon anything?

Well quite frankly, indie devs coding an MMO engine from scratch is a bad idea. It took Darkfall devs what... 10 years to build their game and the result? It was dated when it finally was released. Middleware is today's watchword and it would be dumb to start all over from nothing.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I want a good sandbox game. I just don't think the HeroEngine is capable.

If these guys are relying on exising tech then there's going to be nothing fruitful gained.

Hate to put it that simply, but that's the deal. How can a 2008 engine improve upon anything?

Well quite frankly, indie devs coding an MMO engine from scratch is a bad idea. It took Darkfall devs what... 10 years to build their game and the result? It was dated when it finally was released. Middleware is today's watchword and it would be dumb to start all over from nothing.

I can agree with that. There needs to be a happy medium. Guys with the ideas, meeting up with vets with the know how, and a community of real investors that could make it so.

That'd be a perfect storm, but I'm aware it's highly unlikely. That's the kind of happenstance that could cure cancer, make better cars, figure out what women want and that sort of jazz.

I just don't think the path projected for this game will yield anything tangible. 

Originally posted by Mogus

Maskedweasel is right,

 it's really not the engine that dictates what's possible in most cases and we aren't relying solely on what comes with the Engine to build Greed Monger. Our housing model / Architects tool is being coded and modeled from scratch.

There are some restrictions for each Engine and some do things better than others, but Hero has been updated to 2.0 recently which is still partially underway which is making some things that weren't possible in the past, now possible which has helped.

I believe that though Unity is great for Single Player games and COULD be used for an MMO, Hero's sole focus is on MMO development and as such contains a variety of toolsets that would otherwise cost the developers a large sum to license themselves, and it's all included. I believe Hero cares about their development community and is constantly looking for new ways to benefit us all which I like a lot.

 

I've looked at the Hero Engine. It can build a particular type of game very well. 

It could build the game pitched here. Heavily modified.

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

Originally posted by vgamer

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

 

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

 

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

This argument against Hero is REALLY getting old. Bioware used a Unfinished Highly Modified version of HeroEngine. When looking into the capabilities of the engine it's unfair to do so based on Biowares customized version of it. HeroEngine 2.0 was just released which features a DirectX 11 rendering engine, Speedtree 6, and a TON of improvements to the engine. It's a completely different engine from BioWares Version!

Originally posted by JamesP

Originally posted by vgamer

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

 

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

 

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

This argument against Hero is REALLY getting old. Bioware used a Unfinished Highly Modified version of HeroEngine. When looking into the capabilities of the engine it's unfair to do so based on Biowares customized version of it. HeroEngine 2.0 was just released which features a DirectX 11 rendering engine, Speedtree 6, and a TON of improvements to the engine. It's a completely different engine from BioWares Version!

I don't think any defense is necessary when comparing any game to SWTORs use of the Hero Engine.   Understand, BioWare was and still is completely capable of creating their own engines for their games, and they've done it many times prior to the creation of SWTOR.  The Hero Engine didn't stop BioWare in the slightest from creating their desired MMORPG. 

A company like BioWare backed by [one of] the largest publishers in the industry made a specific decision to utilize the Hero Engine the way they did.  They had the resources to use ANYTHING.  They wouldn't choose an engine and then heavily modify it unless that was specific to their vision.  They don't need to compromise, unlike Greedmonger, whose budgets should be razor thin at this point.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by JamesP

Originally posted by vgamer

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

 

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

 

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

This argument against Hero is REALLY getting old. Bioware used a Unfinished Highly Modified version of HeroEngine. When looking into the capabilities of the engine it's unfair to do so based on Biowares customized version of it. HeroEngine 2.0 was just released which features a DirectX 11 rendering engine, Speedtree 6, and a TON of improvements to the engine. It's a completely different engine from BioWares Version!

I don't think any defense is necessary when comparing any game to SWTORs use of the Hero Engine.   Understand, BioWare was and still is completely capable of creating their own engines for their games, and they've done it many times prior to the creation of SWTOR.  The Hero Engine didn't stop BioWare in the slightest from creating their desired MMORPG. 

 

A company like BioWare backed by [one of] the largest publishers in the industry made a specific decision to utilize the Hero Engine the way they did.  They had the resources to use ANYTHING.  They wouldn't choose an engine and then heavily modify it unless that was specific to their vision.  They don't need to compromise, unlike Greedmonger, whose budgets should be razor thin at this point.

So your conclusion is effectively this: Because BioWare failed to create a good (IMO) game with their huge budget, no one ever can do that?

Nice conclusion. If you were the leader of the world we would still be at Stone Age.

Meh, this Appleton guy just sounds like some douche with his head up his own @ss who can't control himself. I know the type. He needs to be taught humility the hard way. Some failure and hard luck would serve him well to curb his attitude in the future.

If his reputation is so valuble to him and he thinks someone is writting libelous statements (he said "slander", which is incorrect), then perhaps he should persue legal action. Speaking of which, how ignorant is this Appleton person anyway? He's supposidly this "big shot" game developer (according to himself), yet he doesn't even know the difference between libel and slander? 

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by JamesP

Originally posted by vgamer

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

 

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

 

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

This argument against Hero is REALLY getting old. Bioware used a Unfinished Highly Modified version of HeroEngine. When looking into the capabilities of the engine it's unfair to do so based on Biowares customized version of it. HeroEngine 2.0 was just released which features a DirectX 11 rendering engine, Speedtree 6, and a TON of improvements to the engine. It's a completely different engine from BioWares Version!

I don't think any defense is necessary when comparing any game to SWTORs use of the Hero Engine.   Understand, BioWare was and still is completely capable of creating their own engines for their games, and they've done it many times prior to the creation of SWTOR.  The Hero Engine didn't stop BioWare in the slightest from creating their desired MMORPG. 

 

A company like BioWare backed by [one of] the largest publishers in the industry made a specific decision to utilize the Hero Engine the way they did.  They had the resources to use ANYTHING.  They wouldn't choose an engine and then heavily modify it unless that was specific to their vision.  They don't need to compromise, unlike Greedmonger, whose budgets should be razor thin at this point.

 If it didn't stop them it severely held them back. Not just the engine itself but they have since admitted the tools  did not scale and that impeded  work massively. Hero was unfinished and undocumented when they took it. Apparently once it was forked that was that. if you read Harris' blog (hero) it seems that he was as surprised as anyone they would licsence something that was simply not ready. IMHO a staggeringly poor decision that not only added millions to costs but did in fact stop them realising there vision, certainly for release. (Pulling high res textures at the last minute, no AA, shadows that looked like they where made from pool triangles, that before you even get into gameplay issues). 

Of course that was then and this is now but at the time it was a monumental cock up.

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Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.  

---

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That's the problem, you aren't a game developer, and you are speaking your mind. You have zero game development related skills, you have people do your work for you.

Originally posted by wowclones

 

---

---

Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.  

---

---

 

That's the problem, you aren't a game developer, and you are speaking your mind. You have zero game development related skills, you have people do your work for you.

lol You make it sound like it's a bad thing that Jason has no Game Development experience and that he has hired a team to create our game... What's so bad about it?

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by JamesP

Originally posted by vgamer

All this drama... I can't believe it had come so far. Forum pvp at its finest. And all this will damage the company because of one man's pride.

 

Should have stayed quiet. Oh well, at least they got attention. Question is if this is good or bad. I feel sorry for JamesP and all the other people working under mr Appleton. At least he seems more humble so maybe not everything is lost.

 

EDIT: on the engine and modifying to overcome limitations. I thought that was one of the big reasons why SWTOR is considered a failure. Wuth all respect, if Bioware can't do it, how can we expect an indie to do it?

This argument against Hero is REALLY getting old. Bioware used a Unfinished Highly Modified version of HeroEngine. When looking into the capabilities of the engine it's unfair to do so based on Biowares customized version of it. HeroEngine 2.0 was just released which features a DirectX 11 rendering engine, Speedtree 6, and a TON of improvements to the engine. It's a completely different engine from BioWares Version!

I don't think any defense is necessary when comparing any game to SWTORs use of the Hero Engine.   Understand, BioWare was and still is completely capable of creating their own engines for their games, and they've done it many times prior to the creation of SWTOR.  The Hero Engine didn't stop BioWare in the slightest from creating their desired MMORPG. 

 

A company like BioWare backed by [one of] the largest publishers in the industry made a specific decision to utilize the Hero Engine the way they did.  They had the resources to use ANYTHING.  They wouldn't choose an engine and then heavily modify it unless that was specific to their vision.  They don't need to compromise, unlike Greedmonger, whose budgets should be razor thin at this point.

 

So your conclusion is effectively this: Because BioWare failed to create a good (IMO) game with their huge budget, no one ever can do that?

Nice conclusion. If you were the leader of the world we would still be at Stone Age.

 

Complete lack of reading comprehension, or was I just not clear?  I was basically saying BioWare chose what they wanted and made it work.  Regardless of what the engine offered BioWare at the time, they chose to modify an untested engine, and, if they wanted to, create a completely different engine.  It says nothing about the engine and only about BioWare.  

Originally posted by Gorilla

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

I don't think any defense is necessary when comparing any game to SWTORs use of the Hero Engine.   Understand, BioWare was and still is completely capable of creating their own engines for their games, and they've done it many times prior to the creation of SWTOR.  The Hero Engine didn't stop BioWare in the slightest from creating their desired MMORPG. 

 

A company like BioWare backed by [one of] the largest publishers in the industry made a specific decision to utilize the Hero Engine the way they did.  They had the resources to use ANYTHING.  They wouldn't choose an engine and then heavily modify it unless that was specific to their vision.  They don't need to compromise, unlike Greedmonger, whose budgets should be razor thin at this point.

 If it didn't stop them it severely held them back. Not just the engine itself but they have since admitted the tools  did not scale and that impeded  work massively. Hero was unfinished and undocumented when they took it. Apparently once it was forked that was that. if you read Harris' blog (hero) it seems that he was as surprised as anyone they would licsence something that was simply not ready. IMHO a staggeringly poor decision that not only added millions to costs but did in fact stop them realising there vision, certainly for release. (Pulling high res textures at the last minute, no AA, shadows that looked like they where made from pool triangles, that before you even get into gameplay issues). 

Of course that was then and this is now but at the time it was a monumental cock up.

And yet, surprisingly, they continued development with it.  I was able to get in to the closed beta for a number of months and see the abundance of issues they experienced.  Regardless of what so many people say about SWTOR I've always and will always hold the belief that they came out with an excellent game overall.   The texture issues being pulled nearly a month from launch, along with the blocky shadows I remember quite fondly.   I also remember poor rendering in conversations, sometimes not showing characters or blacking them out entirely.  

Now, with all that in mind, I think the scope of the game added more to the costs rather then just the engine modifications,  but when it comes to SWTOR, nobody really knows what exactly happened there unless they were on the project, which I wasn't.

But this isn't about SWTOR,  this is about Greedmonger.  For a small budget game to be successful using an engine like Hero, you want to utilize that engine to the best of its capabilities.  I'm confident that it can be done.  Hell I know Unity can do it too.   It will all depend on the development team.  Unfortunately, bringing it back to the original post,  I have yet to see anything concrete that shows me it IS being done.. and hence, why I wouldn't "invest" in a kickstarter for it.