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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A day and night cycle makes mmos feel more alive. Also no more on rails themeparks!

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  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/22/13 4:10:28 PM#41
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Sadly...yes...most player's only seem to care about getting their fun now now now. And want stat and leader boards to gloat over and fight to be #1 of...and show off leet gear. ALL elements that already exist in other genres....FPS games or console fighting games. And it's ok to have those kinds of games.....in their own genre/category, NOT in the MMORPG genre calling themselves MMORPG's.

Why people want to keep stuffing features from one genre into another until neither is recognizeable as a unique genre is beyond me. Not saying it isn't a good thing to add features from one to the other at times...but man,  there can be such a thing as too much.


 

hmm .. i am not sure what else a gamer should care about. It is entertainment, not ethical or moral issues. And you seem to be very adamant about how a genre should be defined. Why? A genre is just a collection of games. Genre alway changes and evolve. There is no reason why we should stick to the old way.

And i am a big proponent of using good ideas, and disregard genre boundaries. Look at games like Borderland 1 & 2 .. it is so much fun precisely because it is a mix of FPS and RPG. Look at Dead Space? Not a pure action title. Not a pure horror title but hell of a fun game.

There is no reason why MMORPG should be shackled by its past. Do you think it will be even 1/10 as popular if the EQ camping problem is not fixed? And if it changes a lot .. so be it .. as long as the games are still fun.

Sigh....why bother.

You shouldn't because he is correct.

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/22/13 4:33:46 PM#42
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Sadly...yes...most player's only seem to care about getting their fun now now now. And want stat and leader boards to gloat over and fight to be #1 of...and show off leet gear. ALL elements that already exist in other genres....FPS games or console fighting games. And it's ok to have those kinds of games.....in their own genre/category, NOT in the MMORPG genre calling themselves MMORPG's.

Why people want to keep stuffing features from one genre into another until neither is recognizeable as a unique genre is beyond me. Not saying it isn't a good thing to add features from one to the other at times...but man,  there can be such a thing as too much.


 

hmm .. i am not sure what else a gamer should care about. It is entertainment, not ethical or moral issues. And you seem to be very adamant about how a genre should be defined. Why? A genre is just a collection of games. Genre alway changes and evolve. There is no reason why we should stick to the old way.

And i am a big proponent of using good ideas, and disregard genre boundaries. Look at games like Borderland 1 & 2 .. it is so much fun precisely because it is a mix of FPS and RPG. Look at Dead Space? Not a pure action title. Not a pure horror title but hell of a fun game.

There is no reason why MMORPG should be shackled by its past. Do you think it will be even 1/10 as popular if the EQ camping problem is not fixed? And if it changes a lot .. so be it .. as long as the games are still fun.

Sigh....why bother.

You shouldn't because he is correct.

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

LOL oh wow. Behold the bitter vet angst put forth for the whole world to see!

 

See how I just completely dismissed you. Yeah, feels AWESOME doesn't it. His point, which I agree with, is that YOU do not determine the genre, and YOU have no place saying what does or does not belong in a game. Players are ill equipped for the job of design, especially in the modern age. You want to know why games are going down the toilet? Its due almost entirely to listening to players. You want to know why there is "less freedom" now than back in the days of UO, its because developers have learned from the game. The honest fact that most of you sandbox junkies refuse to realize is that you cannot trust the player base. You are quite correct, I have not played UO. Sandboxes in general tend to bore me. That does not change the fact that unlike many of the players here, I have looked into it. Reading blogs from the developers, looking at timelines, discussing with players where the game "went wrong", even watching the gdc post mortem on it, which was extremely telling. Especially the part at the end where they skip over and dismiss all of the bad they just went over for the last hour and attempted to show all of the good that the community can bring to the game.

Systems like 3 way pvp do not work with the current playerbase. You never see the 2 smaller sides team up against the larger, infact you almost always see a food chain appear. Look at the current games, trying to please the masses with reviving older systems that just do not work with the much larger and much more experienced playerbase we have today. Which is true in almost all ways. It impacts everything from questing to raiding to pvp. Remember the days of EQ when guilds would not release a strat because it threatend there potential progression? Look at all of the people clamoring for an open world, when they forgot just how much trouble an open world caused! Do you not remember how WoW was heralded for its instances? People not being able to get ahead because of guilds watching and killing stuff that they did not have use for entirely because it kept anyone from tagging the mobs that were relevent to them?

Now, do not get me wrong, there are players that play to be immersed into the world. Just like there are players who do not gives 2 shits about the world, just the math that goes into making his character the best. Either path is not wrong, but the sad fact (for you) is that you are an extreme minority. That little presentation that the Pathfinder Online guy did was rather hilarious in this regard, since the very basis of the "themepark trap" applies just as much to sandboxes. I truly hope you and your segment get your game to play, I even hope its successful, but the numbers do not look good for you and yours.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/22/13 4:35:38 PM#43
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/22/13 4:38:53 PM#44
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

Thats not exactly accurate. The UO devs had to actively take the world sim out of UO because players are douchebags.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Dirkin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 78

1/22/13 4:41:23 PM#45

In a small attempt, to sort of get this thing back on the topic, here's a dynamic weather time lapse from Vanguard. It was recorded in low quality and at really low resolution, so it doesn't really do the game graphical justice. It's actually raining in the video but you can hardlty see it. You can see the weather effects at least, though. Pretty neat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV8WRqTaEe8

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/22/13 4:41:44 PM#46
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

Thats not exactly accurate. The UO devs had to actively take the world sim out of UO because players are douchebags.

I long left before they did that. EQ was a better game then, just beacuse it did not have forced pvp, and i am not required to up mining by clicking a rock 10000 times.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/22/13 4:44:53 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

Thats not exactly accurate. The UO devs had to actively take the world sim out of UO because players are douchebags.

I long left before they did that. EQ was a better game then, just beacuse it did not have forced pvp, and i am not required to up mining by clicking a rock 10000 times.

Thats why the developers did things like Trammel, which is hilarious because many consider that to be the "death" of UO. All of the complaining that Devs do not listen to players, yet almost every time you do it pisses off another group!

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  ZombieKen

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

1/22/13 4:46:59 PM#48
Originally posted by Dirkin

In a small attempt, to sort of get this thing back on the topic, here's a dynamic weather time lapse from Vanguard. It was recorded in low quality and at really low resolution, so it doesn't really do the game graphical justice. It's actually raining in the video but you can hardlty see it. You can see the weather effects at least, though. Pretty neat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV8WRqTaEe8

 

The storm clouds rolling in effect is very cool.  No guess on how that works.  Nice effect.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/22/13 4:51:16 PM#49
Originally posted by jimdandy26
 

Thats why the developers did things like Trammel, which is hilarious because many consider that to be the "death" of UO. All of the complaining that Devs do not listen to players, yet almost every time you do it pisses off another group!

But why don't you cite the positive examples, rather than the negative ones?

For example, the D3 1.04 and 1.05 patch (fix legendaries and progression) makes the game a lot better, and if you trace Xfire numbers, it increases the player base.

So listening to players is not all bad. The problem about trammel is probably that it is too little too late. EQ is already there eating UO's lunch.

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

1/22/13 4:54:23 PM#50
Originally posted by nariusseldon
The problem about trammel is probably that it is too little too late. EQ is already there eating UO's lunch.

HEY! I've been quite lately, but that is crossing the line ;)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/22/13 4:57:08 PM#51
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by nariusseldon
The problem about trammel is probably that it is too little too late. EQ is already there eating UO's lunch.

HEY! I've been quite lately, but that is crossing the line ;)

madazz, feel free to hammer if you need to. Don't pull your punches just because we agree on SOME aspects of gaming. We can't be agreeing on everything.

I wouldn't count it aganist you .. and will still count you as a friend.

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

1/22/13 4:59:01 PM#52

But still, its the one thing I hold sacred! So much makes me angry but thats the one thing I wan't left out of it! LOL

You know on planet of the apes when he sees the statue of liberty on the beaches? THATS HOW I FEEL!!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

1/22/13 4:59:45 PM#53
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jimdandy26
 

Thats why the developers did things like Trammel, which is hilarious because many consider that to be the "death" of UO. All of the complaining that Devs do not listen to players, yet almost every time you do it pisses off another group!

But why don't you cite the positive examples, rather than the negative ones?

For example, the D3 1.04 and 1.05 patch (fix legendaries and progression) makes the game a lot better, and if you trace Xfire numbers, it increases the player base.

So listening to players is not all bad. The problem about trammel is probably that it is too little too late. EQ is already there eating UO's lunch.

Because I highly doubt that the players themselves are the ones that made that happen. I would be willing to bet that pulling of the metrics on drop rates and the like actually made that decision. Don't mistake me, forums are great for "canary in a coal mine" type problems, but actually listening the player base itself in how it should be handled is very rarely a good thing, which is really annoying when developers seem to "give in" and do it.

Also, what exactly are you basing "good game" on? Uo's numbers still had not peaked even with trammel, there were still people joining and playing the game. You want to state that the game was not for you, or it has specific issues that were poorly implemented, fine, but to just flat call the game bad when sheer number of players is your metric is ludacrous.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3555

1/22/13 8:54:07 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

     You mean they are NOT good games in your opinion..  NOT all forms of entertainment have to be the same, just as not ALL sports are the same..  Some like baseball, some like tennis and some like golf and much more..  YOU however keep wanting to put all games into ONE tight little FREE TO PLAY box for you to exploit and freeload on..  I and others wish for something more then an easy shoot em up arcade game like WoW..  I want the challenge of weight limits, food and drink requirements, stamina issues, day and night cycles with weather..  I want my RPG to be more like AD&D, then donkey kong.. 

  erictlewis

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3059

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

1/22/13 8:58:51 PM#55

EQ2 has night and days, and even environment to where it rains.   SWTOR missed all that.  Kind of funny a game from 2004 has that built in day one and a game with todays tech totally missed the ball. 

 

  Barrikor

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 317

1/22/13 11:41:17 PM#56

Thread title is misleading...

I don't know of any themeparks that use Ruby on Rails

Grand Canyon Studios | Projects: Pith Framework (0.5), CactusGUI (0.3) | Planning: Ant Battles, Pirate Tide

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

1/23/13 4:03:32 PM#57


Originally posted by Goatgod76
Sigh....why bother.

I personally agree with your points, Goat, and advise you not to waste time conversing with antagonists.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/23/13 4:26:41 PM#58
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

     You mean they are NOT good games in your opinion..  NOT all forms of entertainment have to be the same, just as not ALL sports are the same..  Some like baseball, some like tennis and some like golf and much more..  YOU however keep wanting to put all games into ONE tight little FREE TO PLAY box for you to exploit and freeload on..  I and others wish for something more then an easy shoot em up arcade game like WoW..  I want the challenge of weight limits, food and drink requirements, stamina issues, day and night cycles with weather..  I want my RPG to be more like AD&D, then donkey kong.. 

Sure  ... not good games for me. And games that are not as popular as the newer MMOs.

Food and drink requirement is a challenge? LOL .. it is just an inconvenience. What is so challenging about it? Do you want the "challenge" of going to the toilet too?

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3854

RIP City of Heroes!

1/23/13 4:38:16 PM#59
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

According to you. But judging from your gaming resume, you haven't played UO and/or EQ, or others prior to ...you know, that 2004 game. So of course you'd agree with him. ...no surprise there.

But i did. I started with kingdom of drakkar, a precursor of MMO. Then i played UO beta .. very bad GAME. Then EQ . only for a year .. the camping and grinding same mob was getting to no fun very fast.

Those are not good games .. and there was a reason why EQ eclipse UO soon, and itself being eclipsed by WOW. Devs finally figured out that a fun game is more important than a world sim.

     You mean they are NOT good games in your opinion..  NOT all forms of entertainment have to be the same, just as not ALL sports are the same..  Some like baseball, some like tennis and some like golf and much more..  YOU however keep wanting to put all games into ONE tight little FREE TO PLAY box for you to exploit and freeload on..  I and others wish for something more then an easy shoot em up arcade game like WoW..  I want the challenge of weight limits, food and drink requirements, stamina issues, day and night cycles with weather..  I want my RPG to be more like AD&D, then donkey kong.. 

Sure  ... not good games for me. And games that are not as popular as the newer MMOs.

Food and drink requirement is a challenge? LOL .. it is just an inconvenience. What is so challenging about it? Do you want the "challenge" of going to the toilet too?

 That's what it boils down to.  If a game feature doesn't get people high like crack then it's useless or worse PITA.  This is why we will never get virtual worlds.  People  who only want the crack.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20545

1/23/13 4:43:28 PM#60
Originally posted by waynejr2
 

 That's what it boils down to.  If a game feature doesn't get people high like crack then it's useless or worse PITA.  This is why we will never get virtual worlds.  People  who only want the crack.

But there is so many different types of crack ...

- action combat

- progression

- stealth gameplay (admittedly seldom in a MMO, but there is some)

 

and in so many settings ....

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