Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Yes they will. Next!

How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

Ahhh, but a lot of us don't do that.  I never, ever grind dungeons and I don't ever raid.  I like to roam around and do or see whatever crops up, which is why I love Skyrim and the various mods creative people have devised.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Yes they will. Next!

How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

Ahhh, but a lot of us don't do that.  I never, ever grind dungeons and I don't ever raid.  I like to roam around and do or see whatever crops up, which is why I love Skyrim and the various mods creative people have devised.

And a lot of people do that .. just go to orgrimmar and look. In fact, most of my guild do nothing but that (before i quit WOW). So for those people .. again .. how and when will they notice?

Originally posted by Amathe
I would notice.  The first thing I look at when I consider a new game is screenshots of the world it takes place in.  If I don't like how the world looks - if it doesn't seem like a place I would enjoy exploring - I don't ever get the game.  

Screenshots? How do you know from a screen shot that it is a persistent world, and not an instanced zone? Heck you can't even tell, from a screenshot, that it is a SP game.

Skyrim has much better "world" screenshot than most MMOs.

Originally posted by laokoko

How often do you visit Wow's forum or all those Wow clone's forum and hear people say "oh, this isn't a vitual world".

Quite honestly I never heard it.  The only forum I heard people complaining about the topic is this forum.

So I think those people playing those massive online lobby game never notice or even care that they are not playing in a vitual world.  Else they wont' be playing them.

Because the persistent world (or lack of) don't impact their gameplay. If you only do LFD dungeons/raid or BG pvp, why would you even care about a persistent world?

Even if you want to see others in a big open zone, it does not have to be persistent.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Yes they will. Next!

How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

Ahhh, but a lot of us don't do that.  I never, ever grind dungeons and I don't ever raid.  I like to roam around and do or see whatever crops up, which is why I love Skyrim and the various mods creative people have devised.

And a lot of people do that .. just go to orgrimmar and look. In fact, most of my guild do nothing but that (before i quit WOW). So for those people .. again .. how and when will they notice?

Original question was if people would notice. The correct answer that has already been pointed out, is the Yes, there are quite a few that would notice. And even those that populate the cities and do nothing more than dungeon/raid crawls, would still rather have a full world, than a Hub Based game (like Vindictus, or Continent of the Ninth Seal).

Originally posted by Sephastus

 

Original question was if people would notice. The correct answer that has already been pointed out, is the Yes, there are quite a few that would notice. And even those that populate the cities and do nothing more than dungeon/raid crawls, would still rather have a full world, than a Hub Based game (like Vindictus, or Continent of the Ninth Seal).

How do you know what they would like? If they never use the persistent world, why would they prefer to have it? Wouldn't they prefer to have more instanced dungeons.

And .. the follow up question is .. will they care? Sure they *may* notice .. but does it even make a difference? Do people care about a feature that they never use? Or would they prefer the resources used to develop stuff that they actually play?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Sephastus

 

Original question was if people would notice. The correct answer that has already been pointed out, is the Yes, there are quite a few that would notice. And even those that populate the cities and do nothing more than dungeon/raid crawls, would still rather have a full world, than a Hub Based game (like Vindictus, or Continent of the Ninth Seal).

How do you know what they would like? If they never use the persistent world, why would they prefer to have it? Wouldn't they prefer to have more instanced dungeons.

And .. the follow up question is .. will they care? Sure they *may* notice .. but does it even make a difference? Do people care about a feature that they never use? Or would they prefer the resources used to develop stuff that they actually play?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Sephastus

 

Original question was if people would notice. The correct answer that has already been pointed out, is the Yes, there are quite a few that would notice. And even those that populate the cities and do nothing more than dungeon/raid crawls, would still rather have a full world, than a Hub Based game (like Vindictus, or Continent of the Ninth Seal).

How do you know what they would like? If they never use the persistent world, why would they prefer to have it? Wouldn't they prefer to have more instanced dungeons.

And .. the follow up question is .. will they care? Sure they *may* notice .. but does it even make a difference? Do people care about a feature that they never use? Or would they prefer the resources used to develop stuff that they actually play?

I see what you are saying Nariusseldon and agree....but what you keep failing to understand, or just refuse to understand, is that MMORPG's are fantasy worlds and are a different genre from what you are asking for and/or about. You are asking for a lobby game...sort of like, if not exactly Vindictus....which IMO is NOT an MMORPG. You are pretty much saying to do what you ask to MMORPG's?

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

I see what you are saying Nariusseldon and agree....but what you keep failing to understand, or just refuse to understand, is that MMORPG's are fantasy worlds and are a different genre from what you are asking for and/or about. You are asking for a lobby game...sort of like, if not exactly Vindictus....which IMO is NOT an MMORPG. You are pretty much saying to do what you ask to MMORPG's?

Really? Tell me ..

is WOW a MMORPG? Is WOW a large part a lobby game?

Is STO a MMORPG? Is STO a large part a lobby game?

(I can go on and on)

And even Vindictus .. isn't it listed as a MMORPG here?

What you don't seem to understand is that MMORPGs are not anything .. they are just a collection of games .. a group of games .. and the nature subject to change (not by me, by devs, responding to players).

I am not asking for a lobby game. I have plenty of those .. heck .. i don't have time to play them all. But what i am doing, is to point out that MANY MMOs are like lobby games, and the virtual world does not matter in that kind of gameplay.

It does not matter what you want MMORPGs to be .. they are what they are now. Don't tell me characterizing LFD/LFR as lobby gameplay is not accurate. You know that it is.

Originally posted by Onomas
Yes we would care. Why do you think everyone likes these limited linear dumbed down games? People play mmorpg's for the world, freedom, and the choice. Role playing can not be complete in a dungeon. And your map or dungeon would get boring in no time. 95% of the people in this post alone gave you an answer and you still try pushing it onto us. If you like them, good, happy for you. But these games are not even close to being mmorog's or true mom's in definition and gamers wants.

Really? Tell me then .. in the biggest MMO, WOW, why do so many do nothing but 5-man dungeon and raid. "Role-playing cannot be complete in dungeon" ... so they are not role-palying, are they?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Onomas
Yes we would care. Why do you think everyone likes these limited linear dumbed down games? People play mmorpg's for the world, freedom, and the choice. Role playing can not be complete in a dungeon. And your map or dungeon would get boring in no time. 95% of the people in this post alone gave you an answer and you still try pushing it onto us. If you like them, good, happy for you. But these games are not even close to being mmorog's or true mom's in definition and gamers wants.

Really? Tell me then .. in the biggest MMO, WOW, why do so many do nothing but 5-man dungeon and raid. "Role-playing cannot be complete in dungeon" ... so they are not role-palying, are they?

 

 

You seem to be under the impression that the world isn't utilized by players or devs. I have no idea where you got this idea, but I assure you the world in these games actually is used. 

I'm sorry you don't like the answers you have received but... its fairly obviously those looking to play an MMORPG would notice and even miss the world should it be removed and replaced by nothing but a lobby. You also seem to fail to notice that by removing the world and reducing the game to a lobby based ARPG type of thing you have removed the massive multiplayer part of the game. 

In the end the game you describe is no longer an MMO, it is an ARPG lobby game and nothing more. 

If you aren't happy with the results of this thread then by all means make a poll. You will get the same results, but having numbers you simply can't argue against may help you come to terms with it if nothing else. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

I think the point is being missed regarding "seing thousands of players".

Of course people aren't going to want to log in only to find 5000 players standing around him and his framerate dropping to 0.

The idea is that one can have access to any of the numerous thousands of players and have some sort of encounter or adventure because of it.

This happened to me all the time in Lineage 2. not very much in most other games... perhaps Aion it did.

Have you ever crested a hill to take a boss only to find your enemy with a larger army around that very same boss?

Have you ever been besieged by several mobs only to find a higher level, helpful stranger lend aid?

Have you ever been leveling in a group, only to be attacked by a rival of one of your party members?

or on your way through a dungeon only to see a group of people who desperately need help with the mobs? You help them then finish your business there and then someone suggests "hey let's go to that island in the north" and you then start a whole new experience there.

Or meet some new player who had no idea what the game is about so you take him/her under your wing, get him equipment, money and then give them a tour of the world.

All that an more can happen when one has a world to wander around in.

In GW1 (a great game) that didn't really happen to me. I would enter a hub and people would be grouping up for that hub. That's about it. DDO? never got that game as it seemed to be people grouping so they can blaze through a dungeon as fast as they could only to do the same again, or with another dungeon.

I'll take my virtual world.

Have you ever been passing an asteroid belt, where a lone miner is being attacked by bandits?... ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo

Yes, I'm teasing. ^^  But you make some excellent points.  Virtual worlds are more difficult to create, and maintain than themeparks tend to be.  One of the reasons is the freedom thats offered.  Unfortunately, Goonies will be with us always.

I'm of two minds when it comes to this.  I like the ideal that the concept of a sand box represents. But I really dislike some of the ways that the ones I've seen have been created.  Thats why I usually stick to PvE themeparks.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

You seem to be under the impression that the world isn't utilized by players or devs. I have no idea where you got this idea, but I assure you the world in these games actually is used. 

Really? How? You don't believe people at end game in WOW are doing mostly dungeons & raids? What else are they doing? Solo-dailies?

I'm sorry you don't like the answers you have received but... its fairly obviously those looking to play an MMORPG would notice and even miss the world should it be removed and replaced by nothing but a lobby. You also seem to fail to notice that by removing the world and reducing the game to a lobby based ARPG type of thing you have removed the massive multiplayer part of the game. 

That is the point. MMOs are doing it .. and becoming ARPGs. 

In the end the game you describe is no longer an MMO, it is an ARPG lobby game and nothing more. 

 You think WOW, STO, DCUO, DDOs ... are in large, no longer MMOs?

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

You seem to be under the impression that the world isn't utilized by players or devs. I have no idea where you got this idea, but I assure you the world in these games actually is used. 

Really? How? You don't believe people at end game in WOW are doing mostly dungeons & raids? What else are they doing? Solo-dailies?

I'm sorry you don't like the answers you have received but... its fairly obviously those looking to play an MMORPG would notice and even miss the world should it be removed and replaced by nothing but a lobby. You also seem to fail to notice that by removing the world and reducing the game to a lobby based ARPG type of thing you have removed the massive multiplayer part of the game. 

That is the point. MMOs are doing it .. and becoming ARPGs. 

In the end the game you describe is no longer an MMO, it is an ARPG lobby game and nothing more. 

 You think WOW, STO, DCUO, DDOs ... are in large, no longer MMOs?

 

 

First I highlighted a key word for you that should help. 

No, I don't agree with you. Simple as that lol. They are themeparks, this is what a themepark does. This is why many prefer sandbox games over themeparks.. Sandbox games utilize the world a great deal more and don't tend to do much if any of the themepark type of dungeons and raids. 

So... no I don't agree with you. 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

You seem to be under the impression that the world isn't utilized by players or devs. I have no idea where you got this idea, but I assure you the world in these games actually is used. 

Really? How? You don't believe people at end game in WOW are doing mostly dungeons & raids? What else are they doing? Solo-dailies?

I'm sorry you don't like the answers you have received but... its fairly obviously those looking to play an MMORPG would notice and even miss the world should it be removed and replaced by nothing but a lobby. You also seem to fail to notice that by removing the world and reducing the game to a lobby based ARPG type of thing you have removed the massive multiplayer part of the game. 

That is the point. MMOs are doing it .. and becoming ARPGs. 

In the end the game you describe is no longer an MMO, it is an ARPG lobby game and nothing more. 

 You think WOW, STO, DCUO, DDOs ... are in large, no longer MMOs?

 

 

First I highlighted a key word for you that should help. 

 

No, I don't agree with you. Simple as that lol. They are themeparks, this is what a themepark does. This is why many prefer sandbox games over themeparks.. Sandbox games utilize the world a great deal more and don't tend to do much if any of the themepark type of dungeons and raids. 

 

So... no I don't agree with you. 

GrayGhost79...you are going to get carpel tunnel and still never get anything through to him. Don't bother.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

No, I don't agree with you. Simple as that lol. They are themeparks, this is what a themepark does. This is why many prefer sandbox games over themeparks.. Sandbox games utilize the world a great deal more and don't tend to do much if any of the themepark type of dungeons and raids. 

 

So... no I don't agree with you. 

Wait .. how can you state that with a straight face?

The biggest sandbox is waht .. EVE .. with 500k players .. a drop in the bucket compared to themepark games.

WOW, GW1, GW2, .. even TOR ..are much bigger than the bigger sandbox games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

No, I don't agree with you. Simple as that lol. They are themeparks, this is what a themepark does. This is why many prefer sandbox games over themeparks.. Sandbox games utilize the world a great deal more and don't tend to do much if any of the themepark type of dungeons and raids. 

 

So... no I don't agree with you. 

Wait .. how can you state that with a straight face?

The biggest sandbox is waht .. EVE .. with 500k players .. a drop in the bucket compared to themepark games.

WOW, GW1, GW2, .. even TOR ..are much bigger than the bigger sandbox games.

Where did I say All, Most, everyone, or anything of that nature? I said many, which is an accurate statement. 500k alone is enough to qualify as many and EvE is not even home to all sandbox players. 

So, yes I can say that with a straight face. 

It's funny how competitively minded players often forget that a significant portion of mmo players are there just to explore and have fun.

It's an interesting question, and one that is not going to get much of a clear answer on any forum simply because those who tend to read forums are only a small portion of everyone who plays such games. Myself, after reading all the responses, I kinda have to agree with the OP that  the trend is definitely toward lobby style games in practice, even with the games that have a "world" that people spend time in while waiting for the "main" events done in instances. Granted, not everyone plays the games that way, but increasingly that is how they are designed, and those who play differently are playing in a way not fully supported by most devs. It's one reason that aside from EVE, and briefly TSW, I haven't seen any MMO recently that made me look past the title and the initial description.

As for how much an "open world" would be missed, it's hard to say precisely. It would certainly be noticed, but how much it would actually be missed is another question entirely and would depend largely on how well implemented the instances were.