Originally posted by Grotar89

Originally posted by Theocritus
I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

How much would you spend on sub fee + box in Sub base MMO ? Around 230 euros/dolars for 1 year ?

How much would you spend in GW2 for the same time ? 50 dolars/euros !!!! + you dont have to buy anything from cash shop,

B2P is a bad model for you ? So you like to buy box and pay sub for around 2months and if you want to come back you have to pay sub once again... That is better model for you?

if i am understanding his post, he does not like to pay for ANYTHING. he expects everything free, as if he is entitled to it.

go figure...

Originally posted by Camaro68

This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:

 This is the story of hater x and player joe:

Hater x tells us his story about how there is no one to play with, Gamer joe says he is wrong because he isnt having trouble finding people to play with at all. Hater x goes on to start calling Gamer joe a fanboy and that he wont face reality. Gamer joe, he starts thinking Hater x is nothing more than a troll because of the way he is thinking.

Moral of the story? both only see what they want to see, they are not looking at the entire picture.

FACT: On my server, when I log onto any of my characters to go do something, my main level 80, alt lvl 80, lvl 52 necro or level 12 guardian...I have no issues finding people. Doesnt matter if its end game Orr zerg, WvW or dungeon runs because Lions Arch is filled with people wanting to do them. As for low to mid level zones, all I have to do is ask in chat if anyone wants to run the map and I get some yeah sures...and thats before I turn to my large guild filled with people wanting to do things, even content they have done before because THE GAME IS DESIGNED FOR THAT...something so many just dont get because they dont want to break their old gaming habits.

Does this mean I think all servers are like that? No...because im not a hater or a fanboy, I am realistic, some servers in ALL games have population issues.

Originally posted by Grotar89

Originally posted by Theocritus
I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

How much would you spend on sub fee + box in Sub base MMO ? Around 230 euros/dolars for 1 year ?

How much would you spend in GW2 for the same time ? 50 dolars/euros !!!! + you dont have to buy anything from cash shop,

B2P is a bad model for you ? So you like to buy box and pay sub for around 2months and if you want to come back you have to pay sub once again... That is better model for you?

       hehe I never once said p2p was the better model....If you do indeed have to buy the box then p2p is an awful model...Alot of MMOs (especially the few older ones that are p2p) offer free download then you pay a monthly...What a game like GW2 is doing is gambling that they will make more off of you making you pay 50-60 dollars up front than they would have if they offered the game for free but with a monthly sub.....In that scenario they probably only make 15-30 dollars as most players will probably only stick with most MMOs for 1-2 months nowadays.....In rererence as to what I personally like, I think f2p is the best model because I determine exactly what I want to pay.

Originally posted by Camaro68

This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:

 

Developer X announces that it's upcoming game, Trojan Horses 2, will not have a sub fee.  Just buy the box and its yours to play for life with no sub fee whatsoever. 

 

Launch day arrives and millions of players buy Trojan Horses 2 with visions of NO SUB FEE dancing in their head.  Developer X announces millions in sales.

 

A few months later Gamer Joe is a little late to the party and decides to buy Trojan Horses 2 with a warm fuzzy feeling toward Developer X because there's NO SUB FEE.

 

But then Gamer Joe logs into Trojan Horses 2 and finds there's hardly anybody in the game.  Wondering why he's playing a Massively Multiplayer game with hardly anybody in it, he turns to a internet message forum for answers.

He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. 

Fanboy Y says Developer X is doing fine because it made all its money back with box sales.  He goes on to explain that Trojan Horses 2 doesn't need players to actually keep playing because all it ever needed was alot of box sales to be successful.

Ok but what does "buy to play" have to do that?

Would it be different if it was a sub?

Whether or not a game uses a sub to get its money has nothing to do with retaining players if the game play is good, compelling, etc. It might be an incentive for some players to stay playing if they don't have to pay every month but that has nothing to do with "He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. "

A real B2P MMO makes more money the less people stay to play.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

The most expensive B2P game I've purchased is GW2 at $70 and then TSW at $30.  Subscriptions cost $120 to $180 per year ($10 - $15 / month) with the exception of long term annual commitments that can cost less per month.  Nearly every P2P game also has a box fee of $50 - $70 and a tertiary revenue generator like a cash shop, some sort of micro-transactions for digital items or rmt for in game cash.  It's just more expensive all the way around.

B2P allows me unrestricted access to that content until the servers shut down.  P2P rents me temporary access to the servers until that time period runs out.

The advantage of B2P is that the developer recoups a predictable up front cost and generates revenue for every account.  It has a small barrier to entry that discourages troll accounts.  Compared to P2P I'm more than happy with B2P and don't mind the box fee.  I also play a lot of F2P games and often buy a starter pack or something else in the store early, if I like the game, to support it.

I think of my games as sub-free not B2P or F2P really.  Some have an up front loaded cost and others a back loaded cost.  Neither of which I mind and both models are working rather nicely for me because I also play several different games.

What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

---

Originally posted by Camaro68
This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:

Developer X announces that it's upcoming game, Trojan Horses 2, will not have a sub fee.  Just buy the box and its yours to play for life with no sub fee whatsoever. 

Launch day arrives and millions of players buy Trojan Horses 2 with visions of NO SUB FEE dancing in their head.  Developer X announces millions in sales.

A few months later Gamer Joe is a little late to the party and decides to buy Trojan Horses 2 with a warm fuzzy feeling toward Developer X because there's NO SUB FEE.

But then Gamer Joe logs into Trojan Horses 2 and finds there's hardly anybody in the game.  Wondering why he's playing a Massively Multiplayer game with hardly anybody in it, he turns to a internet message forum for answers.

He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. 

Fanboy Y says Developer X is doing fine because it made all its money back with box sales.  He goes on to explain that Trojan Horses 2 doesn't need players to actually keep playing because all it ever needed was alot of box sales to be successful.

---

Originally posted by Thorqemada

A real B2P MMO makes more money the less people stay to play.

That's only true if they don't envision an alternate income source like a cash shop - which Trojan Horse 2 has.

So in this case, they made a different bet - having enough people stay who use the cash shop. Which means their box price is lower than what they needed to turn their PROJECTED profit.

Unless they somehow developed a support technique that costs next to nothing for them to operate (server maintenance, support staff). Unlikely.

Originally posted by thinktank001

What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

I agree with thinktank001 here. It's a free to play game with muvfuxxin amazing marketing. They positioned against sub games, avoided saying 'free to play' and sold a box up front. When players started in with the "buy to play" moniker, someone at ArenaNet probably landed a fat bonus for the year.

Yes, somewhere once some GW2 web page said "You buy the box and then play for free." Wanted to get that out there before some clown posted that as 'proofs' the devs ever used the term. 

It's a free to play game, and they played the raging F2P haters perfectly - not only did many of them play their free to play game, but they paid 60 bucks to do it, as well. 

IMO, GW2 is one of the best F2P games I've ever played. 

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by thinktank001

What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

I agree with thinktank001 here. It's a free to play game with muvfuxxin amazing marketing. They positioned against sub games, avoided saying 'free to play' and sold a box up front. When players started in with the "buy to play" moniker, someone at ArenaNet probably landed a fat bonus for the year.

Yes, somewhere once some GW2 web page said "You buy the box and then play for free." Wanted to get that out there before some clown posted that as 'proofs' the devs ever used the term. 

It's a free to play game, and they played the raging F2P haters perfectly - not only did many of them play their free to play game, but they paid 60 bucks to do it, as well. 

 

IMO, GW2 is one of the best F2P games I've ever played. 

Do we still have to have the "what is a f2p game" in 2013?  Is box fee some sort of new and vodoo marketing method?  They charge an up front fee for access to their game.  That fee provides access to that game.  If they add additional content and charge for it you don't lose the previous content purchase.  There is no smoke and mirrors here.

They could market it several different ways.  It could go the traditional xpac method as in WoW, EQ2, and Rift where you need the base game.  How they choose to bundle that is just a detail.

They could also go the standalone route in GW1.  The xpac is standalone and shares core features, such as classes, but content areas are restricted.

Or they could provide budding expansions where they work off the base game, but you don't need other xpacs to play the one you want to buy.  I don't think they will go this route.

I think they might choose combinations of the first two.  Either way I'm not losing access to Tyria.

edit:  Since most p2p games now also have a cash shop, micro-transactions, or rmt of some nature, I don't think it's a singular criticism of f2p or b2p anymore.