Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Through trial and error yes. But I have never been able to pug everything the first time through PvE wise like I did in GW2.

I wasnt as fortunate as you but having PUG members that bail after they get killed didnt help

 

in Everquest, people didnt bail dungeons unless they had other things to do

plus it helped that you could spend hours in the dungeon - and see other player groups

 

im not a fan of instanced dungeons (popularized by WOW)

Not sure what your point is considering EQ was what got me into mmos in the first place. Outside of LOTR I probably spent more time in that game than any other.

I'm more than aware of how "things used to be".

Got to be honest though. I hated LDON.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

As simple as you can get? OK, you're a mesmer with greatsword and scepter/focus for the weapon sets. You're in combat. When would you use mesmer focus 4?

Do you have any idea how laughable this is? This is your counter argument? Really?

Here's the point. The combat system has far more depth than appears on the surface. Most of the skills are multi-faceted... having a base damage element in addition to secondary effects or tactical effects. I like to use mesmer focus 4 because it's one of my favorites. What it does seems simple on the surface... it creates, basically, a line on the ground. If you run through that line, you get a speed boost. If a foe runs through it, they get crippled. So right away we can see that it's not a "spam on cooldown" skill... you need to use it tactically. The beauty of it, though, is in the secondary effects. When you cast it, the skill on your bar changes to a shatter option. When you shatter the line foes in the area are pulled towards it. This is where it really begins to shine. You can not only use it for a speed boost or cripple, you can also use it to pull foes towards you if you wish. You can place it behind or to the side of foes to pull them away from you or an ally giving you more distance. Or, to really get a giggle out of it, you can use it to toss foes off cliffs and walls in WvW. Nothing like making it rain enemies on a sunny day.

Even skills that seem far simpler are better used with a tactical eye. Take the aforementioned great sword. Skill one is your base flat line dps skill. Skill 2 tosses and illusionary great sword at the foe applying damage. However, it also has a bounce effect; it;ll bounce between the foe and allies and apply might to allies in the area. If you see an ally closing on or near the target, timing that so they get the advantage of the bounces is beneficial. In addition, it'll create a clone at your first target. This means you also have the ability to use this skill to create a quick shatter bomb. For example, I'll often start with GS4, which creates a phantasm that damages and cripples the foe. This slows them down and gives me space. Then, since I'm traited for it, I'll dodge to create a clone and follow that with GS2. Bang, three illusions just like that... shatter. Dodge again for another quick clone and the fight is on. 

These are just some simple examples of the skills associated with the weapons... it doesn't even cover how you can further change your gameplay with a deck of utility skills to select from and barely scratches the surface on how traits can completely modify your gameplay. Funny example (to me) of how traits have an effect on play style... you know the Fractal with the Ascalonians? It changes you to a Fire Legion charr. However, there was a bug... the trait to create a clone on dodge doesn't work when you're transformed in there. You have no idea how much that screwed me up or how many dodges I did out of habit expecting my shiny little portable weapon that never arrived. 

So yes, that's one counter argument against the alleged simplicity of the game.

Originally posted by Volkon

Blah...

Isn't needed or remotely necessary for shit PvE wise.

I already said PvP wise the game shines. It is in regards to PvE the game is weak as fuck.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Not sure what your point is considering EQ was what got me into mmos in the first place. Outside of LOTR I probably spent more time in that game than any other.

EQ is somewhat offtopic and i was mentioning EQ because both WOW/GW2 and other mmos have players that bail the group when things start going bad  -- such as they die once

you say GW2 dungeons were easy for you on your first try

im assuming no one dropped from your group after they got killed?

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Torgrim

Writing the word shallow and dont explain why is the same thing to write the word sucks both means nothing if you can't explain why.

i agree - "one word" adjectives without detailing why - are meaningless

Because PvE wise you can accomplish anything with a pug group? With little struggle.

The game gives new meaning to tank and spank (Yes...I know how that will bring down the mighty throws of the lemmings that somehow feel not having a trinity nullifies the concept) the likes I have never seen. Albeit exploration mode does involve a working brain to a degree. Story mode simply involves nothing more than a full group bashing into the foray besides a few selective encounters.

From a "PvE" perspective the game is seriously shallow. I would, however, differ far as PvP goes...

Difficulty and depth are quite different beasts. Incidentally, its worth re-iterating that people often confuse repetitive grindy mechanics, bigger numbers and various other forms of gating as difficulty anyway.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Not sure what your point is considering EQ was what got me into mmos in the first place. Outside of LOTR I probably spent more time in that game than any other.

EQ is somewhat offtopic and i was mentioning EQ because both WOW/GW2 and other mmos have players that bail the group when things start going bad  -- such as they die once

 

you say GW2 dungeons were easy for you on your first try

im assuming no one dropped from your group after they got killed?

No

Maybe it is my stellar personality XD

Did play on launch so that does tend to have peeps "try harder" I suppose. Still not sure what the problem is considering how easy they were. The end of the initial origin story line was especially annoying and simplistic.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Blah...

Isn't needed or remotely necessary for shit PvE wise.

I already said PvP wise the game shines. It is in regards to PvE the game is weak as fuck.

So, basically, you choose to ignore the tactical elements of the skills in PvE, therefore you declare the game "weak as fuck". I choose to combat PvE similar to PvP, using skills to their full effects (except tossing things off cliffs... doesn't work on mobs) and I find it rather complex and fun.

I think the weak element may not be the game.

Originally posted by Gorilla

Difficulty and depth are quite different beasts. Incidentally, its worth re-iterating that people often confuse repetitive grindy mechanics, bigger numbers and various other forms of gating as difficulty anyway.

/sigh

Not sure why you folks need to go this route. I'm not saying if I had to do the same thing umpteen times to get the gear to do something else umpteen times that would be better.

Isn't my point at all. What I am saying is in some earlier games it took more than a few runs to complete the dungeon. Or at the very least some planning with classes or objectives. Can't say I had that happen once in GW2 whether it was in relation to DEs or dungeons.

On a bright note though, I didn't pay a sub so overall the purchase was worth it. Simply not from a PvE perspective. PvP wise though far as mmos go you cannot beat it.

Least considering the way gamers play the genre today.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Blah...

Isn't needed or remotely necessary for shit PvE wise.

I already said PvP wise the game shines. It is in regards to PvE the game is weak as fuck.

So, basically, you choose to ignore the tactical elements of the skills in PvE, therefore you declare the game "weak as fuck". I choose to combat PvE similar to PvP, using skills to their full effects (except tossing things off cliffs... doesn't work on mobs) and I find it rather complex and fun.

 

I think the weak element may not be the game.

Mmkay...yet we completed everything. So what was weak again?

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Blah...

Isn't needed or remotely necessary for shit PvE wise.

I already said PvP wise the game shines. It is in regards to PvE the game is weak as fuck.

So, basically, you choose to ignore the tactical elements of the skills in PvE, therefore you declare the game "weak as fuck". I choose to combat PvE similar to PvP, using skills to their full effects (except tossing things off cliffs... doesn't work on mobs) and I find it rather complex and fun.

 

I think the weak element may not be the game.

Mmkay...yet we completed everything. So what was weak again?

From your description of things, if you in fact "completed everything" (whetever the hell that means) you make it sound as though you were carried through the more challenging content. By your descriptions of things and your dismissiveness of the tactical elements of skills I'm still inclined to believe you are, indeed, the weak element.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Volkon

Blah...

Isn't needed or remotely necessary for shit PvE wise.

I already said PvP wise the game shines. It is in regards to PvE the game is weak as fuck.

So, basically, you choose to ignore the tactical elements of the skills in PvE, therefore you declare the game "weak as fuck". I choose to combat PvE similar to PvP, using skills to their full effects (except tossing things off cliffs... doesn't work on mobs) and I find it rather complex and fun.

 

I think the weak element may not be the game.

Mmkay...yet we completed everything. So what was weak again?

From your description of things, if you in fact "completed everything" (whetever the hell that means) you make it sound as though you were carried through the more challenging content. By your descriptions of things and your dismissiveness of the tactical elements of skills I'm still inclined to believe you are, indeed, the weak element.

Lol...whatever helps you sleep at night. Amazing how I was able to do all the dungeons being "carried". Guess I'm just pro.

>_>

I bought GW2 for what I hoped was world class,thoughtful, stategic, fun ,World vs World gameplay.I couldn't be more disappointed with the frenzied, thougtless zerg thats more like a basketball game to see who can score the most points in a mad scramble lasting weeks.(after which you act like nothing ever happened and start all over ! )

Now I play no mmog.I play SKYRIM(I'm blown away frankly)...and have hopes for Elder Scrolls Online.

The 3 million copies sold...says to me Areannet has gotten the message the games fine.It may be for others...but NOT for me.

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I bought GW2 for what I hoped was world class,thoughtful, stategic, fun ,World vs World gameplay.I couldn't be more disappointed with the frenzied, thougtless zerg thats more like a basketball game to see who can score the most points in a mad scramble lasting weeks.(after which you act like nothing ever happened and start all over ! )

Now I play no mmog.I play SKYRIM(I'm blown away frankly)...and have hopes for Elder Scrolls Online.

 

The 3 million copies sold...says to me Areannet has gotten the message the games fine.It may be for others...but NOT for me.

Skyrim is a lot of fun... check out some of the mods if you really want to go crazy in there! Great game in it's own right.

Regarding WvW, did you find a good WvW guild with teamspeak and all that going on? Good commanders, etc? If not, and you ever decide to have another go at it, hop onto Jade Quarry and check the WvW there. Some great WvW guilds, great commanders and an overall fun experience. You'd be most welcome and may just find there's a lot more to it than may have initally met the eye.

Originally posted by Slappy1

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Yamota

I am saying that 3 million sold units for a triple A B2P RPG is nothing special. Many B2P RPGs sold more than that and D3 was just one example, so 3 million is perhaps above average for a triple A title.

Hell even subscriber based RPGs like AoC and SW:TOR sold over a million units, so 3 million for a B2P one is nothing special.

context from wiki -- this is all time sales -- not just sales for 5 months

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

 

GW2 is still coming to China

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/30/guild-wars-2-is-heading-to-china/

 

i could be wrong but i think its realistic that GW2 will sell at least 10 million over a 3 year period

-- if it does, that places GW2 in top 10 PC games of all time for best sellers

 

This is an important point to make. 3 Million units is the total to date. I think there were around 2 million units sold by the end of September. An additional milion units in the 4th quarter is very solid for ongoing MMO sales.

However, this also provides some important information on the success of the B2P business model. GW2 produced $110US revenue in Q4. Unit Sales directly from Arenanet may provide $60/unit revenue, but with the wholesale prices for units sold through other retailers, the average revenue per unti sold would be less than $60/unit.

The wholesale price is probably closer to $36/unit. It's not unreasonable to guesstimate that the average revenue per unit is somewhere around $45. That would mean ~$65 million in revenue was produced via gem sales. That's pretty healthy revenue. Roughly the equivalent of the revenue produced by a subscription based game with a paying player base of over 1.4 million players! (If all 3 million GW2 accounts were being actively played, that would mean roughly half the revenue per account as a subscription based game, but few AAA MMOs released in recent years can boast of 700,000 active, paying subscribers).

These numbers look even better, relative to the competition, when you consider how many of the AAA P2P titles released in recent years have transitioned to F2P models, in some cases less than a year after the initial release.

GW2 will continue to build the total player base via box sales over time. Among that playerbase, people will come and go as far as active play time goes, but the expanding pool should continue to provide enough active, gem purchasing players to maintain and even grow the revenue stream over time.

NcSoft get $48 dollars out of the $60.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild0-wars-2-thanksgiving-in-tyria/

Guessing this is great news for Ncsoft since Gw2 and Blade & Souls which last  heard seemed to be doing well in Korea were they're two main drivers of revenue.

 

 

Didn't the game have around $45-$46 mill in revenues at the end of 3rd quarter 2012?At that point there were 2 mill plus box sales.End of 3rd quarter was Sept 30 and 2 mill was announced as sold on Sept 13th.

Not saying they did bad,but $48 of $60 would be probably $18 plus dollar's over what companies actually get.Pretty sure I saw the game on sale online for $40 over the holidays,it was a short sale but still.I don't see a store taking an $8 loss even for a day or 2.

$48 a box just doesn't come close to the financial's I read.

 That's the same with most video game companies they don't tend to make money or rather showed the money earned in the quarterly earnings that month. E.g Take-Two routines has drops in revenue during quarters when they realise games during those quarters. Partially to marketing etc without taking into account revnue from the game itself. As stated in the link It was expected they mention they're be earnings from Q4 onwards not Q3. Which is par for course. Also the $48 came from NcSoft.

So nyah nyah .. whatever.  Is that what you wanted?

 

The server count is small, from what I saw.

 

Each server is dead, from what I saw.

 

My observation.  Good day.

 

Originally posted by loulaki

So nyah nyah .. whatever.  Is that what you wanted?

 

The server count is small, from what I saw.

 

Each server is dead, from what I saw.

 

My observation.  Good day.

 

 

your observation is wrong : ) at least my server is pretty active, oh yes at 03:00 am its a ghost world ... yes ...

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by loulaki

So nyah nyah .. whatever.  Is that what you wanted?

 

 

The server count is small, from what I saw.

 

Each server is dead, from what I saw.

 

My observation.  Good day.

 

 

 

 

your observation is wrong : ) at least my server is pretty active, oh yes at 03:00 am its a ghost world ... yes ...

 

Another naysayer - just wanting to prove he is right above all information to the contrary. Why are people so blind and dumb?

So when people actually SEE people and TALK to people and do EVENTS with people.....they are naysayers and blind and dumb???? OK I think I'm done with these forums, people seem to hate a game so much they resort to these kind off posts....unbelievable :(

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by bcbully

Here's what it is.

Anet has found a message for a market.

A lot of boxes have been sold.  

There is still a significant number of people playing. 

 

What I don't understand is why hasn't the stock gone up.

What I don't know is cost of production, how is the cash shop doing. 

 

What I think is that the 5+ year production is more than what most orginally thought. Retention is lower than what was expected by the majority of the mmorpg community.  

 

 

NCSoft isn't only Arenanet.

Arenanet has between 250 and 300 employees now.

On average, over the 5 years of development, lets consider 200 people, earning an average of $75K/year, which is on the high side for a game designer. Some people will earn more than that, but those 200 people aren't all game designers and will earn a lot less.

That is $15M a year or $75M development cost.

Considering the 2M sales far exceeded their expectations, I doubt the budget was over $30-50M.

They recently have sold 3 Millions, half of that from their own site, earning them something like $50. The rest lets assume they make $20 (30%).

1.5M*50= $75M

1.5M*20= $30M

Even if the budget was $75M, they already made a $30M. If the budget was $30M then they made $75M.

Then you have gems.

Lets assume around 10% of the players buy around $10/month in gems. That would be 300K players, but let make it 100K players (or 3% of all boxes sales).

100K*($10*4 months)= Another $4M.

I'll dig some NCSoft reports to check the amount of money Anet was draining.

Brb.

 

The thing is their 3rd qt report showed 48 million total. Analyst predicted that 1st qt 2013 will be much less due to sales being up front. This is what promted the the 50% loss of stock value. 

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by bcbully

Here's what it is.

Anet has found a message for a market.

A lot of boxes have been sold.  

There is still a significant number of people playing. 

 

What I don't understand is why hasn't the stock gone up.

What I don't know is cost of production, how is the cash shop doing. 

 

What I think is that the 5+ year production is more than what most orginally thought. Retention is lower than what was expected by the majority of the mmorpg community.  

 

 

NCSoft isn't only Arenanet.

Arenanet has between 250 and 300 employees now.

On average, over the 5 years of development, lets consider 200 people, earning an average of $75K/year, which is on the high side for a game designer. Some people will earn more than that, but those 200 people aren't all game designers and will earn a lot less.

That is $15M a year or $75M development cost.

Considering the 2M sales far exceeded their expectations, I doubt the budget was over $30-50M.

They recently have sold 3 Millions, half of that from their own site, earning them something like $50. The rest lets assume they make $20 (30%).

1.5M*50= $75M

1.5M*20= $30M

Even if the budget was $75M, they already made a $30M. If the budget was $30M then they made $75M.

Then you have gems.

Lets assume around 10% of the players buy around $10/month in gems. That would be 300K players, but let make it 100K players (or 3% of all boxes sales).

100K*($10*4 months)= Another $4M.

I'll dig some NCSoft reports to check the amount of money Anet was draining.

Brb.

 

The thing is their 3rd qt report showed 48 million total. Analyst predicted that 1st qt 2013 will be much less due to sales being up front. This is what promted the the 50% loss of stock value. 

 It fell by 10%. And Q4 will very telling of this whole thing, though like I said games companies tend to post they're profts in the following quarter, for a host of reasons, right now for NcSoft  investors will be keenly looking at the Q4 results.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Gorilla

Difficulty and depth are quite different beasts. Incidentally, its worth re-iterating that people often confuse repetitive grindy mechanics, bigger numbers and various other forms of gating as difficulty anyway.

/sigh

Not sure why you folks need to go this route. I'm not saying if I had to do the same thing umpteen times to get the gear to do something else umpteen times that would be better.

Isn't my point at all. What I am saying is in some earlier games it took more than a few runs to complete the dungeon. Or at the very least some planning with classes or objectives. Can't say I had that happen once in GW2 whether it was in relation to DEs or dungeons.

On a bright note though, I didn't pay a sub so overall the purchase was worth it. Simply not from a PvE perspective. PvP wise though far as mmos go you cannot beat it.

Least considering the way gamers play the genre today.

Sure, though you can challenge yourself somewhat in GW2.  Just saying all those other games aren't really difficult either. Being unforgiving dosen,t make an MMO difficult, gating dosent make a game difficult. Having to learn a couple of boss paterns does not make a game difficult. Maybe this does not apply to you but a lot of people that are shouting out for difficulty confuse difficulty with unforgiving. These are the guys that often call themselves 'hardcore'. MMO's aren't really difficult to 'learn' compared to say doing MIT lectures in disciplines that are alien to you.

As you say pvp is a whole other kettle of fish, we can agree on that.