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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Most freemium games are pay to win

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  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 694

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  1/17/13 7:48:44 PM#1

If any freemium game has items that are locked due to rarity, that you have to PAY for...that is pay to win.

 

That is no different AT ALL, to a free to play that has items you have to pay to get. No matter how you look at it, its exactly the same.

 

"everyone" hates on free to plays being pay to win (Allods was a big one to hate on)...what is different about freemiums? Why don't they get hated on for being pay to wins?

 

 

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

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  darkkblack

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 37

1/17/13 7:54:04 PM#2
You are right they are pay to wins. I think the game makers are being smart when it comes to marketing their product. I imagine on most games where u have to pay for the install and pay a subscription fee that the game makers lose a lot of clients cause of the great barrier of upfront costs. Now if they let everybody in for free and everybody gets a more personal glimpse of what the game makers are offering then they will get a better turn out as far as sales are concerned. 

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 872

1/17/13 7:54:59 PM#3

Freemium just means Pay 2 play with a cash shop. There is no pay to win in Freemium games such as LotRO or EQ2 or STO. Paying $15 on month to unlock most of the game is NOT pay 2 win. Spending $100s of dollars a month on power ups in allods IS pay 2 win though especially using those 15 minute boost potions in PvP.

  vonryan123

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/08
Posts: 149

1/17/13 7:56:14 PM#4

Cause Games like LOTRO and DDO are freeium and not f2p there is nothing in the shop that cant be acquired in-game. Aside from cosmetic items.

The content I dont count as pay to win.

Personaly More games should take that approach. Unlock the content you want or feel you need as you go.

The other items that are locked dont make or break the game. Points can be earned in-game with no real cash investment. It's not easy but it can be done. Bags and Gold caps once unlocked are done so for the whole account not just that toon (nothing like ToR or some other mmos)

I agree with Allods being f2p p2w. It is very much so p2w and it's not alone in that market. I do think Allods is a good game but I dont play it saddly can't afford to dump cash into it.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5695

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/17/13 7:59:43 PM#5
Originally posted by TheScavenger

If any freemium game has items that are locked due to rarity, that you have to PAY for...that is pay to win.

 

That is no different AT ALL, to a free to play that has items you have to pay to get. No matter how you look at it, its exactly the same.

 

"everyone" hates on free to plays being pay to win (Allods was a big one to hate on)...what is different about freemiums? Why don't they get hated on for being pay to wins?

 

 

i agree with this to some degree. If your game is freemium and the free players are locked out of epic gear and rare items unless you pay for them while subscribers get them right away then yes its pay to win. You are paying $15 a month to get those epic and rares so you win. If the game was not good enough to be subscription only then free players should not be limited to progression content to force them to pay. Limit whatever you want for free players as long as it doesnt block any progression (character or story). In that case subbers are the ones paying to win and everyone else is screwed. My opinion, and the reason why i dont pay cash shop if i have progression limited as a free player. My wallet goes only to devs that care about their players and make money the clean way.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/17/13 8:01:51 PM#6

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 694

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  1/17/13 8:02:11 PM#7

except it doesn't matter if they use "freemium" or "free to play" in regards to pay to win

 

Definition of P2W:
Ability to purchase anything either: not available from other means, that can provide an advantage in any avenue of the game, or circumvents too much of current content.

 

While LOTRO and DDO allow you to earn points through grinding hardcore and buying everything...I did say "most" freemium, not all. 

 

however, DDO released +10 stat tomes you can buy in the cash shop...the rarest item in the game. While you can earn it in game,  it is...well...the rarest. That provides a huge advantage, and changes entire builds. 

 

LOTRO has avoided anything like that as far as I know.

 

However...Everquest 2...Vanguard...hmm...what other games...SWTOR...those three freemiums are truly pay to win. You can't buy the items (yellow con and better for VG, similar system in EQ2 and SWTOR) through any other means unless paying for them...this provides an advantage in the game to payers.

 

Just because they use the term "Freemium", doesn't excuse them for being pay to win.

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5695

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/17/13 8:04:02 PM#8
Originally posted by Robokapp

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

if i cant get to your location or wear your same quality gear because im locked on content for being a freebie then yes i am forced to pay to get better and farther to be competitive against you. Thats pay to win in my book.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/17/13 8:11:05 PM#9
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Robokapp

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

if i cant get to your location or wear your same quality gear because im locked on content for being a freebie then yes i am forced to pay to get better and farther to be competitive against you. Thats pay to win in my book.

I share your definition, sir.

 

/salute

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 694

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  1/17/13 8:11:35 PM#10
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Robokapp

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

if i cant get to your location or wear your same quality gear because im locked on content for being a freebie then yes i am forced to pay to get better and farther to be competitive against you. Thats pay to win in my book.

which is no different than a free to play game, offering items to buy

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/17/13 8:22:44 PM#11
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Robokapp

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

if i cant get to your location or wear your same quality gear because im locked on content for being a freebie then yes i am forced to pay to get better and farther to be competitive against you. Thats pay to win in my book.

which is no different than a free to play game, offering items to buy

it's well known that in f2p games the free players aren't the customers - they are the content.

 

 

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5695

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/17/13 8:29:24 PM#12
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Robokapp

can a free player compete on equal footing with a imilar-level premium player - at any level ?

 

if yes then it's not p2W. if no then it's p2w.

if i cant get to your location or wear your same quality gear because im locked on content for being a freebie then yes i am forced to pay to get better and farther to be competitive against you. Thats pay to win in my book.

which is no different than a free to play game, offering items to buy

there is a difference actually. If the items you buy in a f2p or freemium hybrid game are fluff, convenience bag slots, etc and boosts that is fine. As long as you dont lock progression content behind a credit card input box then everything is ok. Like i said in my above post, if i have to pay to reach your tier of progression then i wont support that, rendering the game pay to win for the subbers.

  Ergload

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 310

1/17/13 8:50:31 PM#13
I like the f2p system Achaea provides.. optional 'pay-to-win' gear shop but its all stuff you can earn by grinding..whipping out credit card just faster way to get the top tier items. ppl who have played for awhile and dont spend any money can compete with people who spend $ for sure..and alot of times the people who just whip out credit card without learning their class end up getting pwned by people who never spend any money but know how to fight...


Currently playing: Achaea

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5935

1/17/13 9:04:08 PM#14

I guess I don't care.  If I like it then I'll play it and pay something for it.  I pay for games I play.  If I don't like it, then I won't spend money and I'll go play another game.  There are a ton out there.  If I'm not playing it then I couldn't really care less about what that community is doing.  It's not really any of my business.  I don't see how it's the business of anyone else if I'm playing a game they consider "pay to win".

Curse you AquaScum!

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

1/17/13 9:12:16 PM#15
Originally posted by TheScavenger

If any freemium game has items that are locked due to rarity, that you have to PAY for...that is pay to win.

 

That is no different AT ALL, to a free to play that has items you have to pay to get. No matter how you look at it, its exactly the same.

 

"everyone" hates on free to plays being pay to win (Allods was a big one to hate on)...what is different about freemiums? Why don't they get hated on for being pay to wins?

 

Yeah, there really is:

  • There is a spending limit.  15.00/month for access or less for "unlockers" depending where in the game you are (level).  In Allods I heard about people spending thousands to be more powerful than the next guy.
  • Most of the time you still have to earn the items rather than just have them appear.
I see where you're coming from but they are not identicle(sp?).  It's similar to the argument that xp boosters are P2W because you get more powerful at a faster rate.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

1/17/13 9:25:07 PM#16
Originally posted by TheScavenger

except it doesn't matter if they use "freemium" or "free to play" in regards to pay to win

 

Definition of P2W:
Ability to purchase anything either: not available from other means, that can provide an advantage in any avenue of the game, or circumvents too much of current content.

 

While LOTRO and DDO allow you to earn points through grinding hardcore and buying everything...I did say "most" freemium, not all. 

 

however, DDO released +10 stat tomes you can buy in the cash shop...the rarest item in the game. While you can earn it in game,  it is...well...the rarest. That provides a huge advantage, and changes entire builds. 

 

LOTRO has avoided anything like that as far as I know.

 

However...Everquest 2...Vanguard...hmm...what other games...SWTOR...those three freemiums are truly pay to win. You can't buy the items (yellow con and better for VG, similar system in EQ2 and SWTOR) through any other means unless paying for them...this provides an advantage in the game to payers.

 

Just because they use the term "Freemium", doesn't excuse them for being pay to win.

 

I agree with your DDO example and VG does offer bought gear (though average grade, not top end) but I don't think items being "locked out" unless subbing is P2W.  I think where P2W came from and why it was a big deal is because there wasn't a sub option to have it all unlocked and that type of "blank check" system was dangerous.  If a freemium game provides a sub option to unlock everything it's not F2P IMO.  Paying to access the items you still need to earn is something you should do if not having them is that big of a deal.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

1/17/13 9:31:14 PM#17
Originally posted by TheScavenger

If any freemium game has items that are locked due to rarity, that you have to PAY for...that is pay to win.

 

 

Take it a step further and WoW is pay to win.  Since all content requiring level 21 or better is unreachable.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  bunzaga

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/10
Posts: 29

1/17/13 9:34:17 PM#18

I could care less about pay to win.

These companies spend MILLIONS of $$ to create these games, and have to keep paying to maintain them, and if *your freeloading ass is too cheap to give them a few bucks, then shame on you.

* I don't mean the OP, just people in general.

Furthermore, as an experienced MMO player, if someone lacks the skill needed to beat me through conventional means, then at least they can spend some money and keep it interesting for me.

By now we should all know what 'free to play' means.  It means those who pay for items through the cash shop will either have an advantage, or a more rewarding game play experience than those of us who don't.  Get over it, or go pay a monthly subscription.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5935

1/17/13 9:44:21 PM#19
Originally posted by bunzaga

I could care less about pay to win.

These companies spend MILLIONS of $$ to create these games, and have to keep paying to maintain them, and if *your freeloading ass is too cheap to give them a few bucks, then shame on you.

* I don't mean the OP, just people in general.

Furthermore, as an experienced MMO player, if someone lacks the skill needed to beat me through conventional means, then at least they can spend some money and keep it interesting for me.

By now we should all know what 'free to play' means.  It means those who pay for items through the cash shop will either have an advantage, or a more rewarding game play experience than those of us who don't.  Get over it, or go pay a monthly subscription.

Yes, we should.  It completely boggles me that we forget what it means in every thread.  It was worth pointing out again.

Curse you AquaScum!

  User Deleted
1/17/13 9:51:01 PM#20

Wouldn't a pay to play technically count as pay to win, considering you can't even enter the game unless you paid a subscription, and if you don't, you don't get access to content and loot, thus making you fall further behind?

It's offtopic, but I've been wanting to ask for some time now. Just saying.

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