I think this is where Neverwinter will come into the mix. In order to have constant character progression, you need constant new content. The real problem I see with games is not the cap, but the fact that there's nothing left to do. Even if I level my character using every quest and every mob kill I can find, eventually I'll have done *everything* in the game, at least once... and then the grind begins. I run the same instance a dozen times until I beat it, and then I run it 100 times to get all the gear it offers... and then... what?

We need player-created content in order to have something else, something to make the grind seem less... grindy. To make it feel like there's something new and different to do, even when it's all really the same thing. RPers have this down already - they create RP situations for themselves, to give themselves new things to do, but it's really all just like playing with the toys you had as a kid. You're just using your imagination to create your own fun. New quests and content in a game allows you to participate in someone else's imagination. A grind prevents both your imagination (your brain goes kinda dead in the repetition) and your participation in someone else's.

Ick, you really can't think of a single reason for neverending progression?

...Really?

If Guild Wars 2 has proven anything, it's that even allowing high level players to be rewarded by high level things for visiting low level areas is not enough to get them to go to those low level areas. Now let's look at WoW; everytime the cap is raised and progression is furthered, all the content before it becomes ghost towns and proof of irrelevancy. Let's be perfectly honest, gamers aren't always the most logical people out there. If there is an area that's out of their level range at some point, they're going to naturally assume they have to progress to that point and once they do, they aren't going to look back. Give it time, and that means people new to a game with infinite progression would essentially be playing a single-player game for many levels, if not forever, because they have no hope of catching up to the people that came before them.

So that's why it's bad for PvE. For PvP, take a look at Darkfall in its initial iteration, where people who played first were inevitably, and infinitely, more stronger than anyone who came after, because progression was forever and thus there was never a way to catch up to them. The only way to avoid this is via progression that doesn't necessarily make one stronger, but evidently that's not good enough for some people.

Love ya Bill, but this is a terrible idea. Stop it.

Another 'new' feature creeping into MMORPG's is the stupid 'I can do anything with respecs' so you can totally respec your toon to do anything.

I think this is a bad idea,one of the reasons I stay in a good MMORPG for years is the ability to have a main I generally raid/group with guildies  and lots of alts to play whenever and however I want.This crappy respec thing which is the only thing putting me off Archeage is horrible and makes you only need 1 character ever :(

So this also takes away replayability of a game,especially in one with lots of different classes (EQ2,Vanguard) that are vastly different from each other.

Edit : Respec or no roles (Trinity,hate that word with a passion,especially holy trinity when talking about a role in a RPG!)

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I kind of like the idea of reincarnation.  Once you reach max level as, say a fighter, you either pass away or retire by choice of course and you are replaced by a new incarnation of a different chosen class, but with a legacy of fighter skills and strengths to supplement the new class.  This way you are continuing the journey, leveling the whole way, starting a fresh new path, but not having to do so completely from scratch as a weak first level character.  This of course requires world building so that there are multiple, multiple paths of upward progression with little overlap in those paths in order to alleviate the "been there, done that" syndrome.  World designs like EverQuest and Vanguard come to mind.

I agree, the vertical game design ends up making old content obsolete, even if it was really awesome. There's a game in development I'm really interested in called Trials of Ascension - one of their main mechanisms is perma-death. You only get so many lives on your character at the beginning and once those are all up, you're dead. This is sort of like reincarnation, it removes the strongest players eventually from play on a regular basis. Not only that, but if you spend a lot of time aggressively leveling your char you're more likely to take risks and die, thus the faster you 'max' out your char (there are no character levels in ToA, just skill levels), the closer you are to death and the more you have to think twice.

If done right, it should allow the game to expand horizontally and avoid the major problems listed in this article. Other comments have touched on the problem of skill levels in EVE, I've tried to play EVE twice but I'm so outclassed I don't even bother. You might want to check out a game called Firefall when it comes out if you're looking for a FPS. Seems like they are designing it correctly.

Great write-up Bill!

I like games that do not have a level cap that must be reached. I hate the fact that developers ,a lot of times, rely on these level caps to sell their expansions.

It's a good read, Bill. And a provocative one. A couple things came up strongly when I read it:

1. We have, indeed, become Pavlovian gamers; addicted to "ding!" and progress at all cost. This is pretty sad, actually. I include myself in this.
2. Because we have what seems to be a linear existence, we want and expect linearity in our games. Progression is perceived as linear, whether vertical or horizontal. And every participant with a linear perspective will figure out a way to compete against and complete that line. And then say, "Now what?"

I think the wall hit in games is just as much about content as it is about leveling and progression. Other than Eve, I have yet to play a game that offers a world that feels alive. Rift and GW2 claim that the world is alive, but they aren't really. Both offer dynamic events(which are fun) but are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of the world. Regardless if the events are a success or failure the world stays the same. 

I would like to see a leveling system similar EQ1 with a living world. A level cap that isn't easy to reach with AA once you reach max level. Add a system similar to that in a world that changes and evolves based on player and NPC actions and I think the wall hit by players wouldn't exist nearly as bad.

I would love to see a game where an army of orcs or undead take over an area and begin expanding until something is done about it. If nothing was done than the group would grow stronger and continue growing until players, or other NPC's/mobs starting fighting them back. Just add an RTS AI mechanic to mobs/NPC's behavior and see what happens. You would have different monsters and factions growing and fighting each other without player interaction. Every time you would revisit an area it would be a new experience.

I also believe that mob scaling should be determined on the level makeup of a server instead of the idea that this area is always 10-20 and that area is 20-30. Monster difficulty should change as the player levels on the server change. Some ares would need to stay static for new players though.

Really not liking any part of this.

First you say dont like endless repetitive grinds at max level but your solution is to make leveling an endless repetitive grind.

Where do we level? Where do I go for levels 801 to 900? The same place Ive been to before just with a new coat of paint? Then what about levels 901 to 1000? Its possible to make levels infinite but its not possible to make content infinite.

Do you scale the players to the zones and expect them to be happy about having to kill a million boars? Do you make instanced zones that scale to the players? But then why make the game a persistent MMO? How fast do we level? Is it going to take us an hour to get 1 of these endless levels? A day? A week?

What do you do about the crushing feeling of the leveling at the beginning? "Level 100? Level 1000? Its all too much for me to handle". You dont want people to feel overwhelmed when they first start the game.

You say that low level people can contribute because of scaling but "perception is reality". If people perceive they must be a certain level to feel worthy then they wont actually feel that way until they meet that certain level.

Lastly, one thing that has plagued MMOs since the beginning is the community. Yes, the people playing the game. Whatever plans or intentions the developers may have for features can become altered or corrupted when thousands of players are let loose upon them.

I'm not one to write a long wall of text about this, but to sum it up, i share your viewpoint Bill, i lose interest in games when the cap is reached, i care not for gear grind, i want character progression in itself.

That reminds me of The Realm, the level cap in the game originally was 20, then upped to 100, then upped to 1000. Still a cap, but the point was, character progression is golden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Realm_Online

Yet another article I agree with you 100% on Bill.  As a longtime on and off player of Asheron's Call since November of 1999 I can honestly say it is the only MMO I've known to take this format and run with it.  Not only does it take many months (years) to hit max level, there are many more systems in place post level cap to aquire never ending progression. Such as:

• Aquiring Luminence to spend on Alternate Advancement http://ac.wikkii.net/wiki/Luminance_Auras#Luminance_Items
• Doing your Bi-weekly runs for Augmentation Gems  http://ac.wikkii.net/wiki/Augmentation_Gems
• Aetheria leveling  http://ac.wikkii.net/wiki/Aetheria
• Cloak Leveling  http://ac.wikkii.net/wiki/Cloaks

I used to play an online game called Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds which had a good end game kinda system. Through your levels 1 - 99 you gained experience. Essentially when you hit 99 you had around 2 billion or so. You then sold that experience to enhance your character.

You would first max your basic states, grace, might and will then invest in vita (health) and (mana). The higher your stats the tougher the hunting caves became and offered better loot.

It also made the harder content more about the adventure, rather than the gear grind. I loved it, although it might not be to everyones tastes...

I agree that there always should be progression paths for a character, but I disagree that it needs to be tied to any sort of numerical value.

You mention Ultima Online. Yes, character skills have a finite cap. However, what makes UO so unique is that that beyond those numbers, there is also ancillary progression paths. There are titles to be earned, virtues to work up, property to be owned, and then (what used to be even more important back when there were more players and less "systems") the all important SOCIAL progression.

I do not believe that what would keep someone interested in a game long term is that the PvE content will scale, or that they never run out of levels, or developer-supplied content - It's community. The sense that they fill a role that, if they left, their social network (Be it the server, guild, friends, etc.) would notice. That they have a place in that world, and they feel they can master it and get better at it. They need to feel like they OWN a piece of that world, both literally with non-instanced housing, or figuratively, as being known for their abilities or social bonds.

UO has players that have been there for 15 years, not because of the PvE or levels or changes to content, but because they feel they make their mark in that world, that they have a tether keeping them there. Ties that bind are harder to break. That's what keeps people long term.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Really not liking any part of this.

First you say dont like endless repetitive grinds at max level but your solution is to make leveling an endless repetitive grind.

Where do we level? Where do I go for levels 801 to 900? The same place Ive been to before just with a new coat of paint? Then what about levels 901 to 1000? Its possible to make levels infinite but its not possible to make content infinite.

Do you scale the players to the zones and expect them to be happy about having to kill a million boars? Do you make instanced zones that scale to the players? But then why make the game a persistent MMO? How fast do we level? Is it going to take us an hour to get 1 of these endless levels? A day? A week?

What do you do about the crushing feeling of the leveling at the beginning? "Level 100? Level 1000? Its all too much for me to handle". You dont want people to feel overwhelmed when they first start the game.

You say that low level people can contribute because of scaling but "perception is reality". If people perceive they must be a certain level to feel worthy then they wont actually feel that way until they meet that certain level.

Lastly, one thing that has plagued MMOs since the beginning is the community. Yes, the people playing the game. Whatever plans or intentions the developers may have for features can become altered or corrupted when thousands of players are let loose upon them.

 

Some people do not get it and thats OK.  Some of us *gasp* actually find alot of enjoyment in progressing our character based on progression of skills, stats and abilities and not through gear.  An example to wrap your head around:

Leveling a character that takes years to reach max level on "mostly" the same content is not a grind to me, but reaching level cap in a matter of weeks and doing that same content to aquire gear is the biggest grind known to man.  I can't explain it and many more like me can't either but what I can tell you is that I would rather "grind" for skills, stats and abilities 100 times over grinding for gear or to reach content.  It's jsut that simple.

Thanks for that Will.

I have always argued that a commensurate system is the one that we should be considering. By Commensurate I mean the following:

Its not "how many point a character has" its is instead the "percentage of points character (A) has when compared to character/monster/task (B)" 

For example of a pvp combat: firstly assuming both characters (A) and (B) have passed normal-humanoid-max. Lets say, character (A) has 20% more relevant skills than character (B); In that case character (A) will do 20% more "normal-humanoid-max" damage than character (B).

"normal-humanoid-max" is a hard system set value within the game.

It would not be possible to do more than 100% more than "normal-humanoid-max"

This sort of system creates a situation where players are always running up hill to maintain their leed, if they slip behind in their speciallity they loose their edge as others start to surpass them. 

The goal is to be better than the other guy, or monster, or crafter, etc. and you have to maintain you have to maintian your lead to stay on top.

No max, just an ever increasing scale.

The option to level/upgrade/improve your virtual character/items is what drives most people to play games.  Many successful games have this type of system.  Some of the first Single Player games that I recall are some of the early Need For Speed games.  Race, earn money, buy parts, upgrade car.  This system has evolved into other games, like most current shooters and such.  Kill lots of enemies, buy weapon parts, upgrade weapon. So on and so on.

With most level-capped MMOs, reaching max level gives the player the option of continuing their playtime by doing group/raid/pvp content.  Some players love these options, but they are not for everyone.  Average Joe Gamer will either create a new character, or stop playing the game.

Having "never-ending progression" is a great idea but really must be done properly with many different options.  Maybe one day there will be a game with all of the following

• -Some type of open storyline, using either a completely random mission system with travelling NPCs/mission givers/mission terminals.
• -Huge skill tree with the ability to learn everything
• -Some type of an implant/upgrade system a'la Anarchy Online
• -A very complex crafting+resource system a'la SWG pre-ncu
• -Separate gear for PvP&PvE that actually provides some bonus (not just cosmetic)
• -Legitimate open-world sandbox, not like the alleged "sandbox" games we've seen in the recent past

Thats just the tip of the iceberg really, but my brain hurts.

Great article btw, thanks

I have been playing Entropia Universe since march 2008 and only missed a handfull of days. 

There is no skill cap and I would never enjoy a game where I could not progress my character.

Even as much as I have played, and as much as I have progressed both my characters skill lvls, estate ownership, social status, buisness relationships, and the strength of my Society (guild), there is still a ton of content that I have not explored, skills and gear I still dream of, estates I still want, etc....

I think they have balanced it really well to allow for the constant growth of your characters without a cap, even though the higher your level the slower the gains. (I am around L52 in my highest professions, some people view me as uber and some view me as noob)

A big part of their draw for me is the variaty of content across their universe, with a different dev studio creating content and competiting for the players attention among themselves, there is always new content or events taking place to draw us like lemmings from place to place for competition while still providing all of their content for all lvls of players on each planet.

The issue with higher end content for higher end players is taken care of by a combination of the economy, skills, and a finite amount of the 'uber UBER' gear.

A new player can easily grind on puny mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

A team of new players can grind on lower mid-lvl mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

A lower mid-lvl player (like myself) can grind on mid lvl mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

A team of mid lvl players can grind on the easier uber mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

An uber can grind on the easier uber mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

A team of ubers can grind the higher end uber mobs. (effeciently and economicly)

There are mobs in the game that can not be taken down by a team of 12 ubers, they require huge numbers of players which means all lvl of players to be invlved in taking down this sort and is planned days or weeks in advance.

But, because the game is not about levels as much as it is about the Economy, leveling up doesnt make you successful, it just gives you more options to find your nitch market.  The depth to the game beyond mindless grinding is what makes me love it so much, but it is a double edged sword because it is also what makes those unable to adapt to that depth hate it as well.

The social aspects can not be ignored either, so much of why people play online vs single player is because they want the human interaction both collaborativly and competitivly, and yet so many play these games as though they are single player games.

Just rambeling now so ill stop :D

About the article, If the game I played had a cap on progression, I wouldnt be playing it daily for the past 5 years.

gl and have fun,

narfi

When dealing with mmorpg's and leveling.  there are other things that could be done, that wouldn't out right ruin gameplay, but it would make for more interesting "end-game content"

I'll primarily be talking bout WOW as my work8s and I always brainstormed during "down-time"

There are a lot of PVE and PVP options that can be done with wow.  First off in the PvP aspect.  only a handful of zones are faction-protected the rest are considered "contested territories"  Why not use the battlegrounds for just that.  2 days out of the week, a zone is fought over.  whoever wins the majority of battles during the two days, that contested zone now becomes faction-protectedfor 5 days(IE fighting over Ashenvale or Stranglethorn Vale) any given week you could have 3 zones being fought over throughout that week.

Now for the PVE aspect you could have npc factions try to take over territories(IE The Burning Legion breaking through the gate once again and beginning it's campaign for dominion in the blasted lands)

there are always ways to tweak things to make them "better"  the main formula is to take away mindless grinding and replace it with content that matters/have consequences.

A big issue that you have to face when trying endless levels is how it scales over time.  Anyone who has played DnD into epic levels will know what I am talking about.  After level 20 you had to change a few things about the game or the game would be completely out of whack by around level 25 or 30.  My view of how to correct that is to use a curve or diminishing returns on a skill based system.  Sure, you can continue to train up your one handed sword ability, but eventually it hits a point where it takes forever to level it for a negligable gain.  The same could be true for crafting also.  

The thing is to make any system like this work the game has to be designed around it.  Take crafting for example.  If someone has seriously invested their armorsmithing to the point where they have gained tons of those negligable improvements you wouldn't be able to have item drops be as good as crafted items.  

Originally posted by azzamasin

 

Leveling a character that takes years to reach max level on "mostly" the same content is not a grind to me, but reaching level cap in a matter of weeks and doing that same content to aquire gear is the biggest grind known to man.  I can't explain it and many more like me can't either but what I can tell you is that I would rather "grind" for skills, stats and abilities 100 times over grinding for gear or to reach content.  It's jsut that simple.

yeah, I feel the same way.