It had been about 2 years since I last tracked my spending vs returns in Entropia Universe even though I have been playing and skilling on a daily basis the entire time.

Chatting with friends in and out of the game as well as reading different forums motivated me to track again for a month and see if the beleifs I had formed years ago were still applicable with the systems today.

My belief before and after this project was that over an extended period of time and spending you will get 90%(give or take a few % ) of your TT (base value) back.  My former return tracking projects had all been hunting on a range of levels which agreed with what I tracked this time.

The log and spreadsheet was all tracked with PED based on tt value only with no markup on equipment or ores found.

$1usd = $10PED (ingame currency)

Link to Google Docs Spreadsheet I used for Tracking

Total Spent Including all Probes, Amplifiers and Tool Decay: $24,214.90PED ($2,421.49usd)

Total Value of Ores Found: $22,448.41PED

Total Value Lost vs TT Value: -$1,766.49PED ($176.65usd)

Total Lost vs TT Value: 92.70%

This looks bad, as though I had lost over $175usd playing last month.

While this is true according to the base value, it doesn't take markup into consideration.

Markup is the price above base value that a player will pay you for your resources or that you pay for your equipment. Markup is all based on player to player transactions either face to face or though the ingame auction.

The average price I paid for Amplifiers was 115%

When averaged in with the unlimited tools that I could repair with out paying markup I payed 112.5% of the base cost for my mining. (every 400ped I spent actually cost me 450ped)

I also profited from markup though when selling my ores.

50% of the Ores I found I was able to sell for 130% (actually sold some for 140%)

25% of the Ores I found I was able to sell for 123%

25% of the Ores I found I was able to sell for 108%

The weighted average for the markup of all ores I found was 122.75%

.927(average return rate) * 1.2275(average markup) = 1.1379(average return rate after markup)

1.1379(return after mu) - 1.125(expenses after markup) = 0.0129 (1.29%)(profit)

Since I cycled $24,214.90PED and had a profit of 1.29% my profits for the month were $312.37PED (or $31usd)

For a majority of this I was using Level 8 mining amplifers which cost me 5ped per search. An unamped finder will only cost you 1ped per search. A rookie finder costs 0.10ped per search. All of my markup expenses were from the Amps I used to 'cycle' faster, unamped with a normal or a rookie finder wouldnt cost you any markup at all.

If I had cycled the same amount of ped without the burden of markup on the amps I would have actually made ((.927*1.2275)-1)*24214.90 = $3339.05PED (or $334usd)

If I had cycled the same number of drops (basicly same amount of time spent) unamped with a regular finder I would have actually profited ((.927*1.2275)-1)*(24214.9/5) = $667PED (or $66.7usd)

If I had cycled the same number of drops (basicly same amount of time spent) unamped with a rookie finder I would have actually profited ((.927*1.2275)-1)*(24214.9/50) = $66.78ped (or $6.68usd)

The most interesting thing for me to see here was that for the same amount of time spent I could have profited more mining unamped. I still had a ton of fun though and for the 6hrs a day 5 days a week (I did group activities with my society on the weekends) I am happy with the results.

Good Luck and have fun :)

narfi

Interesting analysis...

So if I'm reading it right, you're "spending" (on average) a little under $800 per day on mining and getting back most of it back if/when your ores sell (once you take the markup into account)?

I know the game isn't for everyone, but that seems like an awful lot of cash to be playing around with on a daily basis for most players (even if your net total stays relatively stable). Do the returns scale the same way if you've only got around 500 PED to play with?

Im not sure where you got the $800 a day from.

I was doing 3 runs on most days, 1 before work, 1 at lunch and one in the evening. Each run averaged aroudn 400ped, so 1200ped per day converted to USD  is $120.

I had around 5k ped liquid that I was cycling, so enough for 4-5 days of mining before I needed to sell. (I would sell some during that time when ever ayone needed localy) but my big sales run to the main planet was each 5 days or so.

A starting miner can easily play with a 500ped (50$) budget once they understand how everything works and what markets to cater to.  And even less if you stick with rookie mining.

The truth is that rookie mining, standard mining, and amped mining are all the same in actions and graphics and apperance of tools. The only difference is the scale of cost. I highly recomend rookie mining for a month till you understand how things work. I also higly recomend scaling your activities to where you can go hard for close to a week without selling anything. This will let the rule of averages even out yoru good and bad runs a bit so that you wont suffer from the extremes.

Hope that makes sense,

narfi

Very cool! That was an interesting read. Thank you :)

Ahh, thanks. I didn't read your OP closely enough and assumed the spreadsheet showed 2 runs/day with numbers in $ instead of PED. Your explanation clears that up.

The concept of a real money economy has always intrigued me... I may have to give this another shot sometime soon.

I do unamped mining (non rookie though) and i can confirm that you can do this just fine with a one time 50 dollar investment.

I am playing for a month now and my wealth did increase slightly. I wont get rich with this but they way i played for now i wont have to throw money at the game constantly.

One can burn tons of money in this game but if you choose to you can play it for the same amount of money any other MMO will cost you or even less.

 Thanks for the great post! I've got to admit, even after just short of a month in game, your name comes up more then almost anyone. Thats a good thing considering its mostly positive feedback

 Ive actually started to keep a log much like yours for my hunts and the returns are surprisingly good. After markups I am managing about a similar return on my investments. At a much smaller scale. Which as anyone who plays EU knows is incredibly good considering the fluctuations in prices, supply and demand. 

Checked out the spreadsheet and the Total Profit lists a negative amount in the thousands of dollars.

I guess that'd be how the company makes their money huh?

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Checked out the spreadsheet and the Total Profit lists a negative amount in the thousands of dollars.

I guess that'd be how the company makes their money huh?

If you read my first post, you would know that the amounts tracked are in PED (1/10th of a US dollar) not in dollars.

Also in the first post I explane how I profited by selling my ores for more than their base value even though the base return I received from mining was lower than my input.

This is the foundation of smart playing in Entropia. A player who can study and understand this will do well, one who scoffs at it will likely not.

But, yes, that is how Mind Ark makes their money, everyone who hunts, mines, crafts, etc.. loses a portion to them, the smart players make it up and then some, the less cautious do not. That is the fun in it for me, figuring out how to do well where others fail, and learning how to teach others to succede as well.

gl and have fun :)

narfi

Yeah the only way to play sustainability in EU is to be very smart with playing the market.

Either that or better had started early , get all the adj and mod stuff and quit while ahead (like myself) or have land when they first came out.

Average players are not going to get very good returns.

EU used to be okay when all MMO required subscription, nowadays though with some many decent F2P titles I really see no motivation to play it (it really has not much gameplay per se).

Originally posted by narfi

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Checked out the spreadsheet and the Total Profit lists a negative amount in the thousands of dollars.

I guess that'd be how the company makes their money huh?

If you read my first post, you would know that the amounts tracked are in PED (1/10th of a US dollar) not in dollars.

Also in the first post I explane how I profited by selling my ores for more than their base value even though the base return I received from mining was lower than my input.

This is the foundation of smart playing in Entropia. A player who can study and understand this will do well, one who scoffs at it will likely not.

But, yes, that is how Mind Ark makes their money, everyone who hunts, mines, crafts, etc.. loses a portion to them, the smart players make it up and then some, the less cautious do not. That is the fun in it for me, figuring out how to do well where others fail, and learning how to teach others to succede as well.

 

gl and have fun :)

 

narfi

Ah, PED figures.  So the total profit column lists instead a profit of negative hundreds of dollars.

I mean if you were keeping a spreadsheet o keep track of how well you did, why wouldn't you include how well you did in the spreadsheet?  It seems odd that you'd say you made money, but the only record is of losses.  Why not track the money you gained instead?

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Ah, PED figures.  So the total profit column lists instead a profit of negative hundreds of dollars.

I mean if you were keeping a spreadsheet o keep track of how well you did, why wouldn't you include how well you did in the spreadsheet?  It seems odd that you'd say you made money, but the only record is of losses.  Why not track the money you gained instead?

 Yeah one thing to remember with playing EU is, if they are making money/breaking even, you wouldn't need a spreadsheet to know - you simply just won't need to be depositing money. If they are depositing , then they are quite likely not making money.

I remember back when I played I have not deposited for 2 or 3 years pretty much up until the time that I quited.

Originally posted by jpnole
What kind of game is this? Sounds more like gambling!

 It is pretty much.

I remember back when it first started some CC company block/blacklist EU because they considered it a gambling site.

Originally posted by jpnole
What kind of game is this? Sounds more like gambling!

You know how at casinos when a player wins at the slots it makes a bunch of noise and lights up and such?

Same thing in this game, but instead of just those nearby, the ones who win their gamble get it announced in the chat window to everyone logged in to the game.

It's so that people see others winning, and keep going hoping their payout is coming up next.

Often times those payouts were after a lot of loss.

Some players don't get a payout.

Edit: Also your forum avatar is awesome.

I am happy I never tried this game cause once you get into this kind of games you lose it same as you do when you go play in casino.

Originally posted by Fendel84M
Why is this supposed to be fun? Talk about pay 2 win...holy hell.

In some MMOs you pay real money to buy a weapon to use against monsters.

In Entropia, you pay real money to buy a weapon to use against monsters, repair after for more real money, as well as pay real money to repair the armor you were wearing, and if the weapon was a gun, you'll also need to pay real money to reload and repair any attachments such as laser sights.

Entropia is more, pay to lose.

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by Fendel84M
Why is this supposed to be fun? Talk about pay 2 win...holy hell.

In some MMOs you pay real money to buy a weapon to use against monsters.

In Entropia, you pay real money to buy a weapon to use against monsters, repair after for more real money, as well as pay real money to repair the armor you were wearing, and if the weapon was a gun, you'll also need to pay real money to reload and repair any attachments such as laser sights.

 

Entropia is more, pay to lose.

So its like real life except you're not actually buying anything real?