Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

I'd like to weigh in if I may. I'm an oldschool UO player and it's something I've thought/talked about extensively.

 

The PROBLEM with the current MMO scene is both the community's expectations and the lack of balls from developers to put out something with high risk/reward. There's no question that the market is inundated with WoW clones and all-around generic games with nothing new to offer. GW2 is a great example of this. It's hailed as innovative and groundbreaking but at its core there really isn't much different from any other game. It just looks better, the mundane quests you have to do don't show up in any quest log and instead of a pvp arena, they have WvW. 

 

Unfortunately because of community expectations I don't think a good, creative, harcore, whatever type of game would do well even if somebody did make it. Take Darkfall for example. On paper it's essentially UO mixed with Shadowbane............... and it failed. You can talk all day about features that were promised/never delivered, or the grind or whatever but the bottom line is if you compare it to UO (especially early UO), Darkfall had MUCH more going for it objectively. The problem is when we played these great games ~10 years ago, we didn't have countless forums to go complain about things we didn't like, or complain about balance of a certain skill/class/etc so we just kind of put up with the slight imperfections and ENJOYED THE GAME.

 

The new generation will NOT be satisfied by any game imo because they don't feel they have to put up with anything they may not like.

So your saying now we have forums to complain about the game instead of playing it, so every game seems bad?

 

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

so which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

 I wonder if it is a group think mentality.  All we ever read about is how bad game A, B... every game on the market is so everyone starts to believe the games actually are bad.  This would be because itis far easier to comment/read about them now as opposed to 10 years ago and/or there is far more talk about them.

Personally I think most games today are better than most games 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Agree with OP and am hoping EQNext (or whatever they decide to finally name it) is to a large degree a reskin of EQ.

Also want to add how funny it is to me it's always the same 3 people...mostly  (Only 1 of which I've seen post in here...so far) that feel the need to constantly rain on any old school MMO threads parade when they could easily just ignore it and move on. Seems they are on a personal mission to be sure no one gets what they want but them....despite a much larger crowd seeking these than they may think.

Hey, atleast I don't regard myself as being part of "the PC gaming master race above the common console rabble" and "a true MMOer" BS.

Yes, I replied to this thread just for you.

Originally posted by Dewm

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

What THAT says about the state of gaming is that people are less content with the games... because they have higher expectations now. I don't know how you can say it's because games are just objectively worse now, especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

What THAT says about the state of gaming is that people are less content with the games... because they have higher expectations now. I don't know how you can say it's because games are just objectively worse now, especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

And as far as the list of games that are old, but still running with almost no players..

Not really sure the point you're trying to make here, Yes when the game is 10+ years old it will not have as many players as a game that came out 1 year ago.

But the fact that it still has players should say something! do you really think in 10 years Rift or SWToR will have 50k+ players 10 years from now?

...nope, I doubt they'll still be open.

Originally posted by Phelcher
Do you even have a home PC, or did ur mommy just throw a consol at ur feet and let you grow up. Most consol kiddies are like that, because their computers are 6 years old and have a 21" screen. Id boast about my xbox too, if my PC was inadaquate.

Uhhhh...did I miss something? where did this PC vs. console argument come from?

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

What THAT says about the state of gaming is that people are less content with the games... because they have higher expectations now. I don't know how you can say it's because games are just objectively worse now, especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

 

You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

 

 

And as far as the list of games that are old, but still running with almost no players..

Not really sure the point you're trying to make here, Yes when the game is 10+ years old it will not have as many players as a game that came out 1 year ago.

But the fact that it still has players should say something! do you really think in 10 years Rift or SWToR will have 50k+ players 10 years from now?

...nope, I doubt they'll still be open.

 Well we don't tolerate bad launches as much as we did in the past.  Bad lag, broken features, clipping... will kill a game faster than any lack of end game content.

We expect smooth play, decent graphics.  We expect fast, responsive controls, good combat.  Decent crafting, flight, housing would be nice (but probably isn't a widespread expecation), great environmental terrain, lots of customization...

Just off the top of my head

edit - yes there are variations within each of those, e.g customization, a 5 choices of heads in one vs , 50 in another.  But if they only give us a couple we scream murder. 

edit 2 - I'm hard on Ryzom that way, so very little customization of characters or armor (other than stats), egads. 

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

I'm only going to comment on this part because it's a clear fallacious argument I see often. Games get stale specially with the rise of new technology. It doesn't matter if it has all the bells and whistles people moan about. There's several factors that apply. One being people like to play the latest and greatest following the flock. Another being, once you have grown tired of a MMO people rarely return. If they did then the oldest MMOs would obviously be competitive in player numbers.

Games have changed but so have the generation of gamers. They don't have the same expectations as the first generation of MMO gamers, because they weren't around then.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Agree with OP and am hoping EQNext (or whatever they decide to finally name it) is to a large degree a reskin of EQ.

Also want to add how funny it is to me it's always the same 3 people...mostly  (Only 1 of which I've seen post in here...so far) that feel the need to constantly rain on any old school MMO threads parade when they could easily just ignore it and move on. Seems they are on a personal mission to be sure no one gets what they want but them....despite a much larger crowd seeking these than they may think.

Hey, atleast I don't regard myself as being part of "the PC gaming master race above the common console rabble" and "a true MMOer" BS.

Yes, I replied to this thread just for you.

LOL!

Show me in any post I ever added on these forums where I regard myself as such...since you are aiming it directly at me. I haven't. But as is the norm, you make assumption I do, or will find tidbits of posts I put to try and twist it that way.

I just like what I like, and you like what you like. Difference is, I don't go into every thread about a post-2004 MMORPG to tell why they are terrible and won't work...as I stated above.

And need I point out yet again I play console games as well, and have since 1982 when I received my first one(Atari 2600). So I play both. The thing with that is, the console genre I have played since then hasn't changed a whole lot  other than obviously the technology, graphics, and sheer choices we have. Where as the MMORPG genre has changed drastically...towards making them the same genre as console gaming. Quick fun meant for casual play. Which personally, I feel they shouldn't be and is WHY they are a different genre.

The problem with us old school mmo'ers and rpg'ers is that we had concrete, lore stuffed, in depth games to immerse ourselves in.

What happened?  Companies want to draw larger crowds, generalizing their games to maximize profits.  Gaming was industrialized, surpised?

It is nice to see now, though, with the rise of kickstarter and steam greenlight that a lot of smaller companies and developers are actually given a chance to let their true passion for game design shine.  It's great that there are still people out there in it for the art, and not business.

No, the people that you speak of don't have high expectations, we know what works and what is fun and we have all seen it done before.  It's just sad because all the creativity is diluted with the business aspects of creating a game, it really sucks.

Originally posted by FelixMajor

The problem with us old school mmo'ers and rpg'ers is that we had concrete, lore stuffed, in depth games to immerse ourselves in.

 

What happened?  Companies want to draw larger crowds, generalizing their games to maximize profits.  Gaming was industrialized, surpised?

 

It is nice to see now, though, with the rise of kickstarter and steam greenlight that a lot of smaller companies and developers are actually given a chance to let their true passion for game design shine.  It's great that there are still people out there in it for the art, and not business.

 

No, the people that you speak of don't have high expectations, we know what works and what is fun and we have all seen it done before.  It's just sad because all the creativity is diluted with the business aspects of creating a game, it really sucks.

Agree. Why I am watching a few indie games in development now. Sadly though the downside to that is they could end up never coming out, or taking WAY longer than the bigwig companies with lots of suits backing them. But as the saying oges and I believe...good things come to those that wait. =)

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

>Snipe<

 

>Snipe<

>Snipe<

 Well we don't tolerate bad launches as much as we did in the past.  Bad lag, broken features, clipping... will kill a game faster than any lack of end game content.

We expect smooth play, decent graphics. 

We expected that back in the day, at the time EQ and FFXI were breaking ground for graphics.

We expect fast, responsive controls

I don't remember that being a issue in EQ or FFXI (only 2 oldschool MMO's I actually played for a period of time)

, good combat. 

this one could be debated, I enjoyed combat in FFXI.. but I know quite a few didn't

Decent crafting,

SWG and FFXI were known for this..

flight,

That is a new feature I will admit

housing would be nice (but probably isn't a widespread expecation),

Very common in older mmo's

great environmental terrain, lots of customization...

Both very common in older MMO's.

Just off the top of my head

 

You just proved my point, you stated alot of features there that we "would really like to see" in modern MMO's..

But 10 years ago, if a MMO was to have decent crafting, and housing.. people wouldn't think anything of it.. because it was already a standard feature.

thats how are expectations have been lowered slowley in the last 10 years.

Originally posted by FelixMajor

The problem with us old school mmo'ers and rpg'ers is that we had concrete, lore stuffed, in depth games to immerse ourselves in.

 

What happened?  Companies want to draw larger crowds, generalizing their games to maximize profits.  Gaming was industrialized, surpised?

 

It is nice to see now, though, with the rise of kickstarter and steam greenlight that a lot of smaller companies and developers are actually given a chance to let their true passion for game design shine.  It's great that there are still people out there in it for the art, and not business.

 

No, the people that you speak of don't have high expectations, we know what works and what is fun and we have all seen it done before.  It's just sad because all the creativity is diluted with the business aspects of creating a game, it really sucks.

 I don't think old games had any more lore, or had more depth than most newer games.

I think in many cases they were shallower with fewer choices and needless complications that did not add to the game.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

LOL!

Show me in any post I ever added on these forums where I regard myself as such...since you are aiming it directly at me. I haven't. But as is the norm, you make assumption I do, or will find tidbits of posts I put to try and twist it that way.

I just like what I like, and you like what you like. Difference is, I don't go into every thread about a post-2004 MMORPG to tell why they are terrible and won't work...as I stated above.

And need I point out yet again I play console games as well, and have since 1982 when I received my first one(Atari 2600). So I play both. The thing with that is, the console genre I have played since then hasn't changed a whole lot  other than obviously the technology, graphics, and sheer choices we have. Where as the MMORPG genre has changed drastically...towards making them the same genre as console gaming. Quick fun meant for casual play. Which personally, I feel they shouldn't be and is WHY they are a different genre.

I only reply to the threads which go around wondering and wailing about "how we got here?" and/or generally bash the games or their players unjustly.

MMORPGs are not even close to casual games. Not even close. But your exaggeration doesn't end there: You also have commented numerous times that all post-WoW games are "WoW-clones". It doesn't matter if you play console games or not, new or old. You make generalizations and stereotypes about console games and "the console generation".

Use slurs like "instant gratification" and "easy-mode"...

I'm a saint compared to you.

Originally posted by Dewm

Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

 

You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

We might be arguing past one another. I'm not saying that there are specific features that we expect now that we did not expect then. Each individual has their own list of things that make an MMO good or bad. Would intolerance be a better word than expectation? We are less tolerant now than we were 10 years ago. People who didn't like corpse runs played EQ anyway. People who didn't like item decay played SWG anyway. People who didn't like being unable to jump played FFXI anyway. All of these things are now dealbreakers. People will disregard a game without a second thought just because it lacks one single thing that they want in an MMO. And yet, these are not features that are universally good. One man's trash is another man's treasure; there's someone out there who refuses to MMOs just because they lack one of those features.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

>Snipe<

 

>Snipe<

>Snipe<

 Well we don't tolerate bad launches as much as we did in the past.  Bad lag, broken features, clipping... will kill a game faster than any lack of end game content.

We expect smooth play, decent graphics. 

We expected that back in the day, at the time EQ and FFXI were breaking ground for graphics.

We expect fast, responsive controls

I don't remember that being a issue in EQ or FFXI (only 2 oldschool MMO's I actually played for a period of time)

, good combat. 

this one could be debated, I enjoyed combat in FFXI.. but I know quite a few didn't

Decent crafting,

SWG and FFXI were known for this..

flight,

That is a new feature I will admit

housing would be nice (but probably isn't a widespread expecation),

Very common in older mmo's

great environmental terrain, lots of customization...

Both very common in older MMO's.

Just off the top of my head

 

 

You just proved my point, you stated alot of features there that we "would really like to see" in modern MMO's..

But 10 years ago, if a MMO was to have decent crafting, and housing.. people wouldn't think anything of it.. because it was already a standard feature.

thats how are expectations have been lowered slowley in the last 10 years.

 EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

Launches today are generally smoother than in the post.  Possibly due to technology, possibly due to demand.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

... Simply put development costs have increased dramatically. The average wage for a game developer has increased by upwards of $15,000 a year over the last 10 years alone, and that number is just going to continue to climb. On top of that the amount of cost that comes along with making those "new graphics" has increased even more with all of the newer toolsets and associated software licenses required.

Clearly you missed the class on outsourcing... move the production site to India, China, or the like and the costs are easily cut in half.  It only costs a lot of money in countries where the cost of living is relatively high.  Labor is cheap in some countries... hence the invention of "outsourcing."

Compare the wages earned today to those back in the late 80s/early 90s and you will discover that people made far more money then than they do now doing this stuff.  Back then, the equipment/software was extremely expensive, thus the number of people with the right skills were relatively small... they made far more per hour by comparision than those doing the same thing today.

Software/hardware is cheap, labor is where all the costs come in.  A lot of the work already is being done overseas.  More of it gets shipped overseas every day.  Production costs get slashed, profits go up.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

 

You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

We might be arguing past one another. I'm not saying that there are specific features that we expect now that we did not expect then. Each individual has their own list of things that make an MMO good or bad. Would intolerance be a better word than expectation? We are less tolerant now than we were 10 years ago. People who didn't like corpse runs played EQ anyway. People who didn't like item decay played SWG anyway. People who didn't like being unable to jump played FFXI anyway. All of these things are now dealbreakers. People will disregard a game without a second thought just because it lacks one single thing that they want in an MMO. And yet, these are not features that are universally good. One man's trash is another man's treasure; there's someone out there who refuses to MMOs just because they lack one of those features.

So we have higher expectations, because we have more options..

..which I suppose I could agree with.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm

>Snipe<

 

>Snipe<

>Snipe<

 

>Snipe<

 

 

>Snipe<

 EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

Like I said, my own hands on was only with FFXI, and EQ... I don't remember "fast" controls because you didn't need to mash 15 buttons a second, but as far as navegating around windowns and walking around in the world I don't remember any lag (rose colored glasses..maybe?)

and as far as player housing.. can you name one single AAA MMO that has had housing in the last 5 years?

And as far as options.... FFXI had 5 races, with race specific stats, tons of hair styles and all of that crap (which I never really cared about) 

it had 18 jobs, 9 crafting classes

etc etc... I don't see how you say there wasn't alot of customization.

No you couldn't put a tatoo on a face or change a girls breast size... but who really cares about that stuff?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

LOL!

Show me in any post I ever added on these forums where I regard myself as such...since you are aiming it directly at me. I haven't. But as is the norm, you make assumption I do, or will find tidbits of posts I put to try and twist it that way.

I just like what I like, and you like what you like. Difference is, I don't go into every thread about a post-2004 MMORPG to tell why they are terrible and won't work...as I stated above.

And need I point out yet again I play console games as well, and have since 1982 when I received my first one(Atari 2600). So I play both. The thing with that is, the console genre I have played since then hasn't changed a whole lot  other than obviously the technology, graphics, and sheer choices we have. Where as the MMORPG genre has changed drastically...towards making them the same genre as console gaming. Quick fun meant for casual play. Which personally, I feel they shouldn't be and is WHY they are a different genre.

I only reply to the threads which go around wondering and wailing about "how we got here?" and/or generally bash the games or their players unjustly.

MMORPGs are not even close to casual games. Not even close. But your exaggeration doesn't end there: You also have commented numerous times that all post-WoW games are "WoW-clones". It doesn't matter if you play console games or not, new or old. You make generalizations and stereotypes about console games and "the console generation".

Use slurs like "instant gratification" and "easy-mode"...

I'm a saint compared to you.

Sigh...if you say so. I'm not getting into another of the usual garbage, go nowehere arguments with you.

P.S.

How something that refers to quick fun is a slur IDK. The term doesn't offend me, and I play them as well. It's just something I don't feel should saturate MMORPG's. Not saying it doesn't belong at all, just not to the ridiculous degree it does now. There is little to no RPG portion in them now. But again, this is my personal outlook.