In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

Expectation is subjective. Your opinion on the expectations of the community is doubly subjective. What's your reasoning for saying that expectations have not risen?

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

 

 

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

 

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You know, we don't even know if it truly is a niche market. When these games we look back on were at their pique, MMO gaming in general was a niche market. For all we know if UO came back but with Diablo 3 style graphics it might be the newest biggest hit!! But we will never know because the suits take a different look to gaming than the indie guys. The big studios with the huge budgets don't want to take big risks, and the little guys just don't get the funding to see their dreams through entirely.

I DO have high expectations. Why the hell shouldnt I? Why should I have LOW expectations? Why should I believe that a genre cannot evolve? Why should I except that companies CANNOT learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes over and over? Why should I except mediocrity with open arms? Why cant I expect something I want to be good...to actually be good?

There are few things worse than a consumer that believes he has no power or voice. One of them, is a consumer that has excepted that he has no power or voice and demands that others be the same and try to shut them down.

Well, outside of the rather gigantic fact that those who comprise this site are an extreme minority you are also running into the business side. Simply put development costs have increased dramatically. The average wage for a game developer has increased by upwards of $15,000 a year over the last 10 years alone, and that number is just going to continue to climb. On top of that the amount of cost that comes along with making those "new graphics" has increased even more with all of the newer toolsets and associated software licenses required.

Besides all of that, you are also forgetting just how many of those "steps backward" came tied to rather large steps forward. Take any reasonable person who has stuck with WoW through its different iterations and ask them if they want to go back to vanilla. The answer will be a resounding no the vast majoriry of the time. Vanilla WoW was a complete mess after looking at how the combat itself has evolved over time. There will always be a give and take with any kind of development, with many people responding to things in many ways without them even understanding how or why they are responding in that fashion. If anything honestly developers are spending far too much time actually listening to the playerbase instead of doing what they feel is right.

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

 

 

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

 

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You know, we don't even know if it truly is a niche market. When these games we look back on were at their pique, MMO gaming in general was a niche market. For all we know if UO came back but with Diablo 3 style graphics it might be the newest biggest hit!! But we will never know because the suits take a different look to gaming than the indie guys. The big studios with the huge budgets don't want to take big risks, and the little guys just don't get the funding to see their dreams through entirely.

My thoughts exactly.  Why not re-release or 'clone' one of the older MMOs, re-skin it, and make it more 'approachable'  There are some aspects of older MMOs I dont mind leaving in the past, such as corpse runs.  XP deficit works fine here (for me).

ArcheAge looks to be a spirtual upgrade of old in some fashions. Its bringing back the 'exist in the world' versus run to max level feeling thats been missing for years.

I don't think we're a minority, maybe we're in terms of the worlds population but as games? I think we're a big enough market to try and make games for us. Dayz for example, 1.5 million people have downloaded it and lots of people love it. There is this need now to make games for hardcore gamers like Dark Souls. We see EVE Online doing just fine too and don't forget the reason why people loved BF3 MP over COD, there is this hardcore audience who want something with more depth.

Why haven't hardcore MMOs done well traditionally? Mainly because they're made by a small developer and they don't have the budget to make a polished experience. Also when has a casual dumbed down WoW clone done well? LOTRO, AoC, WAR, SWOTR, GW2 etc etc.... none of them have done that well, GW2 probably made people the happiest, however the population has dropped off, people lost inerest really quick because there was no depth. 

Sandbox games also isn't this hardcore notion, Garry's Mod has millions of players, Minecraft has sold like 20 million, GTA as a series has sold like 60 million and MTA is probably one of the most popular onlines games for the PC. Sandbox MMOs just don't exist any more but EVE Online which doesn't appeal to most people because it's basically a text game. The other sandbox games were all from the 90s and early 00s so they're too old now. People just jumped on the WoW themepark band wagon and every single one has failed, no one has made a sanbox MMO since but small low budget developers.

People want a challenge when gaming, if you make something too easy the game gets boring fast, we've seen that trend where these shallow easy MMOs just lose their players quickly.

Originally posted by Aelious
The "old school" fans may be smaller in number compared to the playerbase brought in by WoW but the scene has changed in regards to population expectations. I think it's finally sunk in that there will not be another 5m+ sub game, at least not in the foreseeable future.

Using the lowball figure one the OP, 200k of subs would be more than enough to build and run a game if you consider box sales. If you made a game solid enough to attract the "old school" crowd it would be stable as well.

I was running on the small side of numbers, just for the sake of argument. But you also have to remember, even if you did a exact remake of any one of the "old school MMO's" it would never capture 100% of the "nitch market"

But like I said, for the sake of argument I put 200k, whatever the number is, we know there are more facebook/MMO-lite gamers out there then "old school MMO gamers"... and I think developers are fighting over the larger crowed and are forgetting us here in the back.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

 

 

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

You might feel YOU are wrong with having high expectations but I sure have higher expectations then what MMO's deliver today.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

How is that you want a larger feature listing, more content, player housing, interdependency and everything else from the old and still say that you don't have high expectations when you look at today's MMO's? that are in comparison far more limited then what we had?

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

Thus even you seem to show clearly to have high expectations. You want updated graphics, you already know how large of a hit that is towards coding a game let along having high end graphics combined with a large feature list most of us old scholers want.

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

Funny thing is that many who left old school games back in the day often complained that they felt like jobs, where with today's MMO market I feel these games actually feel allot more like jobs then games due to the nature of how things are set up, you will be excluded from raid X party if you do not meet their demands in stats, it's all to serious now when grouping, nobody talks anymore as they are all working their job to complete the mission within a set time stamp. Most rush thru the content to get at end game.

I have to wonder if "we" the niche MMORPG player are not making enough revenue, I mean in most oldschool games people kept playing for years, today person A play's MMO X for a few day's and hops to another MMO because these games are setup like normal multiplayer games where the player doesn't need any kind of devotion towards the ingameworld or community. Still I am glad they are there cause plenty of players enjoy them. I just feel there is room for MMORPG to go far beyond single/multiplayer games as I have experianced with the old school MMORPG's.

Your last sentence doesn't make sence as you try to exclude gamers from a genre they might enjoy in it's current state which is lets face it larger then the niche MMORPG gamer.

Just lets hope that future MMORPG deliver us a more old school experiance with lots and lots of feature's that go beyond being merly combat oriented.

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

 

 

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

 

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You know, we don't even know if it truly is a niche market. When these games we look back on were at their pique, MMO gaming in general was a niche market. For all we know if UO came back but with Diablo 3 style graphics it might be the newest biggest hit!! But we will never know because the suits take a different look to gaming than the indie guys. The big studios with the huge budgets don't want to take big risks, and the little guys just don't get the funding to see their dreams through entirely.

My thoughts exactly.  Why not re-release or 'clone' one of the older MMOs, re-skin it, and make it more 'approachable'  There are some aspects of older MMOs I dont mind leaving in the past, such as corpse runs.  XP deficit works fine here (for me).

ArcheAge looks to be a spirtual upgrade of old in some fashions. Its bringing back the 'exist in the world' versus run to max level feeling thats been missing for years.

And thats exactly why I've been waiting the last few years for AA.. its not everything I want.. but it does look to be the closest thing.

What I would LOVE is an almost exact remake of FFXI start at the Chains of Promathia expansion, with updated graphics. Thats what I had hoped FFXIV would be... but instead it was just a horrible horrible car wreck. (but they are coming out with FFXIV 2.0)...so maybe....

*turns blue holding breath*

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

 

 

I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

You might feel YOU are wrong with having high expectations but I sure have higher expectations then what MMO's deliver today.

Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

How is that you want a larger feature listing, more content, player housing, interdependency and everything else from the old and still say that you don't have high expectations when you look at today's MMO's? that are in comparison far more limited then what we had?

Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

Thus even you seem to show clearly to have high expectations. You want updated graphics, you already know how large of a hit that is towards coding a game let along having high end graphics combined with a large feature list most of us old scholers want.

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

>snip<

I think we are pretty much agreeing here,

My arguement is that I don't have high expectations, I just expect to have at LEAST what we had 10 years ago.

But alot of people here on the forum say "we have to high of expectations from the devs" and my answer is nooo, with current tech. and the amount of people in the MMO market, that the current MMO-Lite crowed have very very very low expectations from where we were 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Dewm

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable.

When half the items you wants are things that the majority of gamers despise, yes it's unreasonable to think a dev would spend money making it for the small crowd that wants it. Expecially since no two people in that crowd have the same list of what they want from an MMO.

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You assign a perjorative ("MMO-lite crowd') to your audience, incorrectly called your personal wish list "old school mmo" to ensure that anyone disagreeing obviously isn't "old school" and then tell your audience to go find another forum if they don't like what you have to say.

If you just wanted to tell people with other views to F off, why create a new thread to do so?

 

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable.

When half the items you wants are things that the majority of gamers despise, yes it's unreasonable to think a dev would spend money making it for the small crowd that wants it. Expecially since no two people in that crowd have the same list of what they want from an MMO.

You must need to get your reading comprehension checked.. That is nothing like what I said. I listed quite a few old school MMO's. The list you just quoted was my own personal list of things I liked in FFXI.. In fact at the end of my post I actually said "we'll never see it happen because its to much of a small nitch market"

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You assign a perjorative ("MMO-lite crowd') to your audience, incorrectly called your personal wish list "old school mmo" to ensure that anyone disagreeing obviously isn't "old school" and then tell your audience to go find another forum if they don't like what you have to say.

If you just wanted to tell people with other views to F off, why create a new thread to do so?

PMS much? yes I generalized, no I didn't go through the 30million+ people, and name what every single one likes about different MMO's. But there is deffinitly a certain crown that likes the newer (MMO-lite) games.. and a smaller crowed that likes the older (oldschool) games.

Don't really see how I told anyone to "F off"... if anyone, it sounds like you who have the problem

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Disdena

Expectation is subjective. Your opinion on the expectations of the community is doubly subjective. What's your reasoning for saying that expectations have not risen?

The expectations definitely haven't risen, and have indeed gone backwards catasrophically..

When I look at how free-form games like UO or SWG were, and how they all involved complex professions, crafting, player relationships and more, it boggles my mind how much we've moved backwards the last 5-10 years, not forward at all.

A huge number of the MMO games on MMORPG.com's game list would never be classed as an MMO 5-10 years ago, they'd just be seen a big shooter games like Planetside 2 (which I play fyi), or big solo-RPG games like SWTOR (which I was a beta tester for, and also still play under the free-to-play model). Neither qualify as an MMO, nor do a huge number of the recently-released games.

Most of the games of the last 5+ years are Pac-Man with larger numbers of players, not an MMO world ast all. After playing SWTOR and being unable to chat (there's no chat 'bubbles' making it impossible to text locally) I logged into Realm of the Mad God (a browser-based game) and found a more immersive game environment where players could actually converse.

The last 5+ years has given rise to astonishing creativity at sales and marketing: I've never seen more 'free to play' and 'freemium' and cash shop / cash-grab / cartel market nonsense. It's like developers are creating a billing system, then tacking a game front-end to it, ratehr than the other way around..... And it's sad, with all the extra players that are now playing these pseudo -MMOs you would think they'd get annoyed. But when you're used to Facebook 'games' (that aren't games at all) I guess this is how they see 'MMOs' (that are not MMOs in any way) as being enjoyable and not just glorified advertising and cash-grabs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable.

When half the items you wants are things that the majority of gamers despise, yes it's unreasonable to think a dev would spend money making it for the small crowd that wants it. Expecially since no two people in that crowd have the same list of what they want from an MMO.

 

Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

You assign a perjorative ("MMO-lite crowd') to your audience, incorrectly called your personal wish list "old school mmo" to ensure that anyone disagreeing obviously isn't "old school" and then tell your audience to go find another forum if they don't like what you have to say.

If you just wanted to tell people with other views to F off, why create a new thread to do so?

 

 

 

 

They need a +1 feature for some posts :)

The hard core/ old school thing always seems to come down to the same elitist BS.

Originally posted by Dewm
 

And thats exactly why I've been waiting the last few years for AA.. its not everything I want.. but it does look to be the closest thing.

 

What I would LOVE is an almost exact remake of FFXI start at the Chains of Promathia expansion, with updated graphics. Thats what I had hoped FFXIV would be... but instead it was just a horrible horrible car wreck. (but they are coming out with FFXIV 2.0)...so maybe....

*turns blue holding breath*

Did you play FFXI at the start of the Chains of Promathia expansion?

Did you like it?

Then why can't you play it now unless the graphics are better? Higher expectations? (I'm asking this as someone who played FFXI for a few years at release and then resubscribed last year.)

I think that the expectations are often not too high but rather impossible in the sense that a new game should do everything exactly like in that half remembered magical very first MMO, only better!

And thats impossible because the magic and the excitement of the first time never come back and a game that does everything like, for example, WoW will never be better than WoW.

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Disdena

Expectation is subjective. Your opinion on the expectations of the community is doubly subjective. What's your reasoning for saying that expectations have not risen?

>snip<

An example would be Age of Empires Online (what a way to kill a franchise)

But anyways, AoEO is really just a RTS with a lobby system. You have your "home city" which is just a lobby to either do, solo quest, or play multiplayer with up 2-4 people... how is that a MMO?!!?

But by todays standards.. it is.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Dewm
 

And thats exactly why I've been waiting the last few years for AA.. its not everything I want.. but it does look to be the closest thing.

 

What I would LOVE is an almost exact remake of FFXI start at the Chains of Promathia expansion, with updated graphics. Thats what I had hoped FFXIV would be... but instead it was just a horrible horrible car wreck. (but they are coming out with FFXIV 2.0)...so maybe....

*turns blue holding breath*

Did you play FFXI at the start of the Chains of Promathia expansion?

Did you like it?

Then why can't you play it now unless the graphics are better? Higher expectations? (I'm asking this as someone who played FFXI for a few years at release and then resubscribed last year.)

I played FFXI from the start of the NA launch (I think it was 2003?), and I played untill around 2006 where I quite because of school...and it was just taking to much of my time, (literally 5-8 hrs a day)"

I came back in 2010 (I think thats what it was) and with the Abyssea expansion the whole game changed (and not for the better IMO), I tried to play for a while, but the new expansion + the really small population + dated graphics + FFXIV announced, I just had a hard time staying interested.

I still loved going back and doing the old school stuff, (grinding in the dunes, exploring area's and what-not), but the population was so low in those areas you just couldn't get a party. Most people just leveled to max in a week or so with the Abyssea leveling system..

...anyways it still makes me kinda sad, but it doesn't change the fact that we have moved backwards options/complexity wise in the last 10 years.