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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do You Remember When....

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94 posts found
  g4m3sh4rk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 40

Get some!

1/15/13 8:24:28 AM#61
Originally posted by Scot

I do remember when and it was great times. But I ask you this. Do you think in ten years time players will be saying:

 

Do you remember when we had guilds?

Do you remember when we had crafting?

Do you remember when we had factions?

Do you remember when we had grouping?

Do you remember when we had money you could earn in game and everthing was not paid for with real money?

Do you remember when you had vendors you could sell loot to?

Do you remember when we did not all just stand in a lobby?

Do you remember when we had raids?

 

This is not a process that has stopped. It carries on and I don't think defenders of the modern easymode MMO quite get that.

I remember Scot. And I will never be able to forget. 

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7266

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

 
OP  1/15/13 1:49:50 PM#62
Originally posted by Silverchild
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf


When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.

 

Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.

 

 

That was cool, but I dont think its a shift in gamers mentality that caused it, I think its a shift in game design.

 

I mean, you could be a complete noob in UO and experience "high level content" right away if you had friends to take you there. I remember hunting dragons with a group when I was a complete noob, shooting with my bow and doing almost no damage. But hey, I was still helping, and I was having fun. So of course I had absolutely no pressure to level as fast as I can.

Nowadays... can you even ENTER a high level dungeon as a low level character?

Games have elvolved and put in place so much artificial restriction on content ( and even gear checks now!) that it does encourage players to try to reach the level cap ASAP to experience it.  Its only normal.

I think thats kind of the problem though,  in many games you really do get sectioned off from everyone.  Like the issue in GW2 right now where there are a lot of areas with no people in them... even though you're supposed to be able to do everything you can at end game, from level 1 (minus dungeons but still)  it still sections off so much of the population.  And in that way, a lot of the content gets forgotten.   

 

Theres nothing that attaches you to anything when you tier gameplay, because you're always looking to the repetitive end, because its really all that matters.   None of the other players or areas matter, there are no homes or shops to come back to...  

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

1/15/13 3:28:45 PM#63
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

I think thats kind of the problem though,  in many games you really do get sectioned off from everyone.  Like the issue in GW2 right now where there are a lot of areas with no people in them... even though you're supposed to be able to do everything you can at end game, from level 1 (minus dungeons but still)  it still sections off so much of the population.  And in that way, a lot of the content gets forgotten.   

Theres nothing that attaches you to anything when you tier gameplay, because you're always looking to the repetitive end, because its really all that matters.   None of the other players or areas matter, there are no homes or shops to come back to...  

People get sectioned off from each other because they WANT to be.  Do you think development companies started isolating their players from each other simply for the squeaks and giggles?  No, they did it emphatically and deliberately to lower their customer service requests.

What happened to MMOs is very simple to understand.  The genre was invaded and conquered.  Probably a few times.  Less-than-wise developers didn't protest, either, because the invasion(s) put money in their pockets NOW instead of later.

There is no place on this planet where this should be more evident than mmorpg.com.  It should only take about two or three thread readings for someone to say, "Wow, these people don't listen to each other and say things that are polar opposites from each other."

It's because we don't like each other, don't want the same things from our entertainment, and shouldn't be forced to interacting with each other.  If you don't understand yet, setup a checkerboard with chess pieces on one side and try to play against each other.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

1/15/13 3:44:01 PM#64
Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
 

People get sectioned off from each other because they WANT to be.  Do you think development companies started isolating their players from each other simply for the squeaks and giggles?  No, they did it emphatically and deliberately to lower their customer service requests.

Yeah. People don't like to congregate as much as some may imagine.

What happened to MMOs is very simple to understand.  The genre was invaded and conquered.  Probably a few times.  Less-than-wise developers didn't protest, either, because the invasion(s) put money in their pockets NOW instead of later.

More like adapted to the larger market. Oh, i think the devs are very wise. Why works for 10k players, when you can work for 10M? Better financial reward. Larger audience. More fans. Higher satisfaction.

There is no place on this planet where this should be more evident than mmorpg.com.  It should only take about two or three thread readings for someone to say, "Wow, these people don't listen to each other and say things that are polar opposites from each other."

It's because we don't like each other, don't want the same things from our entertainment, and shouldn't be forced to interacting with each other.  If you don't understand yet, setup a checkerboard with chess pieces on one side and try to play against each other.

Very true. That is the key. There is no we .. and there are many preferences of what is good entertainment.

 

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1621

1/15/13 3:47:35 PM#65
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 


 

What happened to those times?

still there, since I pay for my own accounts I play by my rules. :)

not catering to any FOTM class or what a 'leader' wants for their endgame pve content.

 

playing to please someone else = ruining fun and ends in cancelling subscriptions.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

1/15/13 3:57:17 PM#66
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Yeah. People don't like to congregate as much as some may imagine.

Was that supposed to be funny?  If not then you missed the entire point of my post.  Some people most definitely like to congregate, especially if the congregation is of like-minded individuals with a similar recreational purpose in mind.  The only reason that separation is becoming far more prevalent is because the industry is trying to appease and maintain playerbases composed of parasitic, traditional, generic, and exploitative playstyles, together under the same roof.

More like adapted to the larger market. Oh, i think the devs are very wise. Why works for 10k players, when you can work for 10M? Better financial reward. Larger audience. More fans. Higher satisfaction.

There is only one game on the entire planet that can claim 10 million concurrent subscribers, and I'm not entirely sure it currently qualifies (even though once it could have boasted 12 million).  Your statement is once again unintentionally hilarious because 10k subs is actually a VERY common number for many mainstream MMOs.  The world hasn't gotten smaller in the last decade.  The competition may have gotten more robust, but technological availability has risen exponentially.

No, your thinking is entirely wrong.  Trying to appeal to everyone simultaneously has never produced a viable product  and would certainly not be categorized as wise.

  mysticaluna

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 251

1/15/13 5:51:22 PM#67

You can see on World of Warcraft's Cross Realm Zones how people don't want to congregate together when forced.  By forcing servers to merge together in zones people can't properly play together because they are on different servers, and everyone is strangers fighting against each other for solo mob spawn rates.  Why make the content solo and force people to compete for it? On a PVE server it makes no sense.  For Blizzard to justify Cross Realm Zones, they need to make the mobs elite quality group mobs again, because all they did was up competition, while the mobs are so easy peesy, that they die in one hit... 

Especially, if you happen to be doing low level quests that you missed out on as a max level 90, and they all die in one hit, yet you have to compete and group up with other 80-90's due to lack of spawn rates? Harvesting is painful now that zone populations have increased, and you have to deal with people phasing in on your harvest node, that you didn't see becaus they were invisible to you!! 

Not to mention,  the nightmare that doing Eternal Vale dailys has become, there are 20 or so people doing solo quests, fighting each other over mob spawns, when the zone should scale up to be group/raid quests, why have 20 people soloing against each other on a PVE server? 

They do need to learn scaling content technology, solo mobs should only exist if there's 1 person, not to be over camped by a high level or multiple people mass exterminating them with 0 challenge factor... There need to be harder elite group/raid mobs out in the world... Sha's are cool in Pandaria, but that doesn't make up for the solo-centric content in the entire rest of Azeroth!! 

Stuff like simply finding rare names up in the world is now much harder with higher numbers of people in a zone, crowds made making a pandaren monk a nightmare, people on beta couldn't even do their quests thanks to overcrowding. Crowds ruin everything, they ruin immersion and fun, you need to segregate players to an extent, in order  to reduce lag and make a game playable ... 

Once they figure out how to scale up mob difficulty to number of players or player's level however, we can end this max high levels annihilating gray low level trash content... 

So, yeah, games need to give options, ways to avoid daily grinds, instead of enforce them on everyone, ways to seperate the community and reduce crowds, give people more to do and not force them all into a new expansion, bring more life into older content... 

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

1/15/13 6:04:26 PM#68
Originally posted by mysticaluna

So, yeah, games need to give options, ways to avoid daily grinds, instead of enforce them on everyone, ways to seperate the community and reduce crowds, give people more to do and not force them all into a new expansion, bring more life into older content... 

Another person that I have no business addressing because we shouldn't even be using the same internet forum.

Just to make it clear for passer-bys, the type of separation you are talking about is not the same as the lack of communical association that the OP is concerned with.  Your problem seems to stem from poor server management and an abundance of virtual greed among what is undoubtedly an overly power-hungry population.

Once upon a time, people actually sought out interaction with other players simply for the sake of the interaction and fun.  It wasn't to camp mobs together or sell a high level raid token.  While such interaction still exists to a degree, it has degraded substantially in recent times and is arguably much lower calibur.

But thanks for reminding me (and probably a few others) why I don't want to be playing your type of MMO...

  Freezzo

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/12
Posts: 234

1/15/13 7:38:23 PM#69

Just to respond to the first page: I miss the feeling of coming into the server (logging in ofc) and saying hi to my guild and tradechat and I'd know about 40-50% of the active people on the server. Of course we have to move on, but looking back that's what I liked the most. The game itself sucked, but the community and the optional grouping (though highly encouraged for more experience... a full grinding party of 7 gave bonus xp, about 80% of what a duo got) with benefits was great. It was socialise or be a slowpoke...

 

Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

1/16/13 4:32:14 AM#70
Players are "sectioned of" to help the servers cope with so many people. It has nothing to do with players not wanting to play with other players. Please point me to the threads in MMO's where players are complaining they see too many people when playing their MMO. Threads like that do not exist because in a MMO players want multiplayer, if you are a solo game player who wants every game to have only solo gameplay, you may not want multiplayer but we do.
  Enerzeal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/27/10
Posts: 332

There is no good or evil, only power - and those too weak to seek it.

1/16/13 5:58:03 AM#71

I still do a large amount of what you stated in Eve.

To be honest though you are right, completely. Using world of warcraft as an example. Now I can smash my face into the keyboard and beat monsters, there is very little challenge to be had while you level up. The levels come incredibly fast, and the areas are done with in an hour. I Don't need to interact with anyone else as I level up, not one person is needed to get to end game. If I do group up, my quest experience remains the same, but the exp generated is often as much as I get for killing monsters, which is greatly nerfed by grouping up.

If I group up I have to slow down for my leveling partners leveling rate, I have to slow down to fit their schedule, afks etc. I have to also share quest items from monsters, yes some games have figured ways around this, but lots still have not.

Now everyone is fixated on end game, I shouldn't say everone, the majority of people are. The best content, the most challenging content, the better loot, the better abilities, it's all locked away there. Even for crafters.

Taking everquest as an example now, original everquest.

I began grouping up at about level 10, working with others to kill much more difficult monsters. My progress was quicker, and we chatted to each other while we did it. Because it was difficult to progress through these areas, I used to love how getting deeper into it and seeing more was a challenge, but because it was a challenge, seeing more was so much more entertaining.

Today the very idea of difficult monsters as you level up is horrific, any thought of making it take a long time is considered grindy.

In what world should it be that the end game of an MMO is considered the game? And the levels leading upto it considered a anoying thing that we must grind through.

Now this thread talks about whats missing now from our MMOs, and so many fools have said it's because we're all nostalgic fools, well what I just listed are facts, hard facts. No nostalia there.

P.S To the person who said Final Fantasy 7 is nostaligia and not so great of a game, false. I have returned several times and each time I have been more than happy with the gameplay I got. Go ahead and tell me baldur's Gate 2 isn't as good as the current crop of RPGs and my reason for classifying it as one of the late great RPGs is that I am nostaligic...

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

1/16/13 6:51:06 AM#72
Originally posted by Scot
Players are "sectioned of" to help the servers cope with so many people.

Not what the OP is talking about.  You can divide a playerbase up into manageable servers without isolating groups and individual soloers from each other.  The only games that don't have multiple prospective servers are typically games that don't use a lot of instancing and allow for a very high degree of interaction.

 

Originally posted by Scot
Please point me to the threads in MMO's where players are complaining they see too many people when playing their MMO.

How about this one, four posts up from yours.  If you don't see that people want to be isolated from other incompatible playstyles, it's probably because you are a griefer and precisely the person they want to be isolated from.

  Grixxitt

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 557

1/16/13 8:33:59 AM#73

Something to ponder since social interaction (and the lack thereof) is brought up so much on this board, is how can game developers possibly go about pleasing everyone.

Basically you have 3 groups, those that want instant PvE content, the soloists, and the people that want a more robust social experience. 

I have my own ideas and, tbh, I should have made a seperate thread about this but I'm a bit short on time this morning :(

 

(tbc)

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Maelwydd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1169

1/16/13 8:40:14 AM#74

Talking about social stuff..

 

I got told I was unsociable today because I didn't use Facebook and twitter. I said I prefered talking to people face to face rather then using a computer and that Facebook and twitter do not make you a social animal...they laughed...I cried.

  wallet113

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 235

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

1/16/13 8:43:13 AM#75
Originally posted by Bossalinie
I totally use notepad and nothing else to make websites!

LOL i remember when I did that too.

 

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

1/16/13 8:49:34 AM#76
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?

 

When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?

 

When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?

 

When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?

 

When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?

 

When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?

 

When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?

 

When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

 

When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?

 

When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?

 

When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?

 

What happened to those times?

Yes. Yes, I do remember SWG pre-CU.

My best guess as to what happened: game companies sensed there was a profit to be made, and that the MMO demographic was only reaching a portion of the video game market at large.

Most MMOs now are glossy, easily accessible, "hold your hand" affairs that take little to no time to understand. There are some exceptions, I'm sure. But the corporate machine is driving MMOs to market sooner then they should be, lacking depth and content that veteran MMO-ers have come to expect.

The result is a lifeless game that bleeds the initial playerbase and sends the developers scrambling to reach their pre-launch levels of hype and excitement. Meanwhile, the masses are moving on to the "next big thing", rinse and repeat.

And yet we play. Is it out of fun, or is it our undying quest to recapture what may never be again?

We're as much to blame as the developers. We know we should stop, but we do not. Someone will get it right, won't they? Sure. Now, just enter your credit card here, download the client, and go enjoy the most dynamic and innovative MMO experience ever released! (Until the next one).

  Mudfin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 14

1/16/13 10:19:53 AM#77
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by birdycephon

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with nostalgia, and everything to do with how different the communities are, and how much games have shifted their system compared to their old counterparts.

 

Older MMOs were developped more as sandboxes or at least giving players as many tools as possible to do what they want to do (UO, SWG, etc).  They would also require the involvement of several players to achieve even basic things such as leveling (EQ, FFXI, etc).  Both of these things created great communities of players that care about more than just themselves, but also the people they play and interact with.

 

Today's MMOs are very restrictive in terms of what players can do, and are extremely solo-centric. Rather than being about communities, MMOs are about "You".  The need to interact with other players has greatly lessened with the exception of end-game, but the need to develop any relationship was also removed through the addition of PUGs.

 

That is not to say that older MMOs were perfect, by no mean were they even close. However, to claim that our preference to older MMOs is purely out of nostalgia, considering how different the games and communities were compared to today, is just pure ignorance.

 

I was reading replies and starting to get out of my rocking chair to post when I saw this reply. 

 

No need to post.  This said it all.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

1/16/13 10:42:04 AM#78
Originally posted by Freezzo

Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me

Who are you to tell others how to consume their entertainment? And you got it reverse. It is the devs who want a piece of their business.

If STO makes a decent SP experience when i play the story mission, tell me a reason why i should not enjoy it as a SP game?

Plus, solo-ing != SP all the time. How about if i want to solo dungeons, but trades in the AH? There is only ONE SP game with a AH. So naturally if i want variety, i should play MMO solo, and then use their AHs.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7266

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

 
OP  1/16/13 3:19:19 PM#79
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Freezzo

Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me

Who are you to tell others how to consume their entertainment? And you got it reverse. It is the devs who want a piece of their business.

If STO makes a decent SP experience when i play the story mission, tell me a reason why i should not enjoy it as a SP game?

Plus, solo-ing != SP all the time. How about if i want to solo dungeons, but trades in the AH? There is only ONE SP game with a AH. So naturally if i want variety, i should play MMO solo, and then use their AHs.

The developers have learned that creating a game generates a lot of hype and up front revenue,  but so many of them have also learned that it also leads to diminishing subs and decreased populations, much faster then games that are built around the community aspect.  

 

We see a lot of great games out there right now,  but it doesn't appear any have really hit their projections as to where they thought they would be just a few months after launch.  

 

Some developers want to entertain by trying new tricks, and putting spins on how to group and how to interact,  but lets face it, sometimes the old ways are best.  You don't see the NBA raising the basket to 18 FT, or increasing the size of the court and adding more players.  

 

Its amazing how many tried and true systems that build attachment to a game haven't even been utilized in over half of the new releases.  Things like housing, or player run stores.  Things that breed attachment and community, and therefore, longevity.

This decision that everyone should play with everyone on any server, and yet, not be required to play with anyone ever makes no sense and is contradictory.  I'd rather have more options regarding the ways to play with the people around me (on my server) , instead of a very small amount of ways to play with tons of people, most of which want to play a game by themselves.

 

Its a lot about the player... and its a lot to be said for the way the players react within the common design we've seen.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

1/16/13 3:45:21 PM#80
Originally posted by maskedweasel

Its amazing how many tried and true systems that build attachment to a game haven't even been utilized in over half of the new releases.  Things like housing, or player run stores.  Things that breed attachment and community, and therefore, longevity.

Because players don't think these are important? It is not like the ideas have not been tried.

This decision that everyone should play with everyone on any server, and yet, not be required to play with anyone ever makes no sense and is contradictory.  I'd rather have more options regarding the ways to play with the people around me (on my server) , instead of a very small amount of ways to play with tons of people, most of which want to play a game by themselves.

It is called choice. And what do you mean by "very small amount of ways to paly with tons of people" ... if you look at WOW as an example, the choice of playing with others:

- H dungeons, 3 levels of raids, BG and arenas.

And choice of playing solo ... quests. So there are MORE ways to play with others.

Lastly, if people want to play by themselves, and occasionally inspect others to see their gear, and do some trading on AH, what is wrong? MMOs are entertainment products. People should use the product whatever way they enjoy since that is the purpose of games.

 

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