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General Gaming  » F2P is not a sell out or Bad

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  VoreDock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 111

 
OP  1/14/13 9:30:50 AM#1

 

I am sick of all you people saying free to play is a sell out or a bad

 

Tera , SWTOR , Aion  all for teas games went  F2P for one reason  to  give  sub players more people to play with

 

All had   good numbers but Dev’s can’t justify a games life to publishers on anything less than great numbers

So F2P was added  you can still sub and many do

 

F2P is a good thing after all without it publishers like EA would kill games and even the sub players would be left out

 

Or have we all forgot SWG   (Star Wars Galaxys )

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 996

1/14/13 9:54:50 AM#2
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.


[video]http://xivpads.com/?Cod-Eye-Ragnarok[/video]

  PieRad

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/08
Posts: 1169

1/14/13 9:56:06 AM#3
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

I agree.

 

  VoreDock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 111

 
OP  1/14/13 10:41:25 AM#4
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

This is untrue  it's publishers greed driveing F2P and our  bad ecomeny   

 

if you play a  F2P game and dont like it  What have you  Lost  ?

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

1/14/13 10:44:24 AM#5
Originally posted by VoreDock
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

This is untrue  it's publishers greed driveing F2P and our  bad ecomeny   

 

if you play a  F2P game and dont like it  What have you  Lost  ?

"bad economy" helps MMOs, not hurts them.  Just basic economical common sense, cheap entertainment does well in down times.  

 

Publisher greed isnt driving TERA f2p,its desperation.  The game sucks (to most) and flopped.  Its a last gasp.

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 996

1/14/13 11:02:37 AM#6
Originally posted by VoreDock
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

This is untrue  it's publishers greed driveing F2P and our  bad ecomeny   

 

if you play a  F2P game and dont like it  What have you  Lost  ?

Don't talk drivel, has nothing to do with the economy, players dedicated to a f2p game will spend more money on that game in the cash shop than they would paying subs, whether the cash shop has fluff or p2w items.  I won't entertain any f2p as they never are really f2p, and in a lot of cases rather sub standard in quality.  I'd rather put money towards other luxuries like holidays, beer, and fishing gear.  Better than looking at a 50 buck pixel don't you agree?


[video]http://xivpads.com/?Cod-Eye-Ragnarok[/video]

  MadnessRealm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2684

Ignorance is Bliss.

1/14/13 11:04:50 AM#7

I had said it back when TERA was in Beta that this game should be F2P from the get-go. It did not have the appeal to be a P2P MMO and I was right. To go to a F2P model is simply doing what they should've done from the beginning. I actually think the F2P version of it will be relatively succesful in the F2P market.

As far as SWTOR goes, I think EA's intention were to go F2P all along. They went P2P to recuperate as much money as possible to repay what they've invested, and then swap to F2P when they don't make enough sales anymore.

 

 

If done right, a F2P is a great business model for both the players and the publishers/developers. But it's a lot more difficult to trust a company that goes P2P first then change to F2P 6 months later. Some games have managed it, well. DDO, and  LOTRO comes to mind. I don't know about Aion's CS, but it's still running so I suppose it's doing relatively well. I think TERA will do well as a F2P too, and that this case was just a developer studio misjudging the quality of their MMO and the state of the market.  SWTOR's F2P however is horrible, horrible, horrible.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  krevra

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 19

1/14/13 11:06:03 AM#8
Haters gonna hate on f2p. State your opionions all you want. All im saying is thar was at ime when alot of f2p games where just grinders and extremly generic but more and more quality games are becoming f2p or going out as f2p. F2P is here to stay and its a quality model. We are currently in a evolution in pc gaming where f2p no longer means generic and low quality. And if you cant accept that then you are simlply blinding yourself to whats going on. Companies dont move to f2p model to make less money, its to attract a larger audiance and increase revenue. P2P isnt going away anytime soon but less and less games will adopt that model and if they do like we have already seen more then enough times as proof, they will go f2p in the end. F2P is just a more attractive model. The whole only shit games go f2p is pretty naive, just thought i would throw that out thar since its based on the vocal minority.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16613

1/14/13 11:11:50 AM#9
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

Well, I don't think that's really the case. Not entirely anyway.

It's not necessarily about maknig a "quality game". As far as the scope of games out there, games like Aion, LOTRO, SWToR (yeah I went there), AoC, etc, are "Quality games" give or take some bugs and the like.

There's a horrible trend on these forums (despite all the outcry about "being linear") for linear or binary thinking. If something isn't x then it's y "end of story". Or if something is x then it will always move to y. etc.

Most of these games can't remain sub games because they can't maintain players until the next content update. LOTRO was exactly like that. players would complain the game was dying and then BAM! An update and the deluge of players.

Players have become less willing to pay a sub when it's not clear to them what they are getting. They would rather just unsubcribe and wait until the next content update.

So just because a game move to free to play doesn't mean it was a bad game. It just wasn't able to keep players for a year until the next update.

As far as "paying fo pixels", that's just way off base.

Do you pay for your movies? A concert? What are you getting but light and sound waves and perhaps an intangible experience?

That's what you are paying for when you buy access to a virtual item. "Access". Just like cable and purchasing a sports event. Access.

I will agree that the f2p move is a bit of a cash grab in that companies are counting on those with disposable income to front the bill for those who don't want to pay. I can't say I like this but with the cap on how much a person can spend removed, they get more money.

 

 

 

  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2369

1/14/13 11:15:29 AM#10
Originally posted by VoreDock

 

I am sick of all you people saying free to play is a sell out or a bad

 

Tera , SWTOR , Aion  all for teas games went  F2P for one reason

Because they were not designed well enough and not good enough to keep people paying in the long term.

 

They go FTP as a last ditch effort to boost revenue before fading away. They can steal so much more money for so little effort with FTP gimmicks. They make the game a pain to play then sell you shortcuts.

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/14/13 11:40:58 AM#11

Im sick and tired of all you trying to tell me F2P is so great.

Its not. . Anyone with a decent job can easily afford a 15/month fee. Thats 50 cents a day, its so trivial its not even funny. In the past 7 years its the only thing that hasnt gone up 400% in our economy!!!!! So if you ahve a job and dont want to sub, then either the game was bad to you to begin with, or you just dont want to pay anything at all to play a game.

The amount of profits these companies are getting from cash shops is trivial. You can have 400k paying subs or a game with 1 million accounts with 5% of the people paying into the shop. Do the math.

F2P:

Pay for mounts 10-25$

Pay for character slots 10$

Pay for inventory slots 10$

Pay for action toolbars 5-10$?

Pay for dungeons 5-10$

Pay for housing and decor 3-10$

Pay for costumes and outfits 5-15$

Pay for missions 5-15$

Pay for unlocking higher grade speed, armor, weapons, etc.

Pay for upgrades to weapons, armor, etc can cost hundreds insome games

Pay for races 5-10$

Pay for classes 5-10$

Pay for well i could go on for about a hour........you add your own here.

P2P:

I pay 15$ and get eerything free.........

 

Only a handful of games that went F2P did it well enough to actualy feel free. The rest are bottom feeders trying to suck as much money out of us and our kids to keep an already bad game going.

Going F2P doesnt make the game any better. If i left SWTOR because it was bad, all of the sudden its a great game again because they slapped F2P on the side of it?

The population increase is trivial, adding so many people doesnt automaticaly make the community better. Often times it allows in people you just dont want to play with and can ruin the game for paying customers. Adds more whinning about wanting more things free, adds more whinning about griefing in pvp setting, adds more whining about everything. Have you guys not read any of these games forums? Its a joke.

Games go f2p to give sub players more people to play with? LOL seriously? No they go F2P because the game sucks, lacks immersion, in dpeth game paly, has limited features, doesnt offer longevity, the mechanics are horrible, or any other combination. Because if the game offered all that and kept people paying and having a good time, the others would still be there playing and subbing.

If I see a mmorpg going F2P already before release, then i know its lacking in multiple areas and doesnt have a chance. Thats the problem. To many of these game companies are releasing crap games with no feel to them, jsut a month long story and a bunch of eye candy. Story dries up, then the players dry up. That is what our mmorpgs are like now. But you guys cant seem to look pst the story long enough to see the game simply is horrible.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/14/13 11:49:37 AM#12
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

Not stupid, but rather going by a very biased view. You have in your sig an FFXIV banner that lists your accomplishments. If you are like most people, the reason you have that there is because you are proud of it or want to show it off. It's still pixels, and while your argument is that you 'earned' them, the view of other might be that you wasted a ridiculous amount of time collecting pixels and virtual badges. See, you can rationalize that one is more important, better, or superior to the other, but in reality it's all a matter of what you value and what you enjoy.

 

It's just very hypocritical to insult someone based on how they spend their leisure resources when you are proudly showing off how you spend yours.

 

 

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/14/13 11:53:35 AM#13
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

Not stupiod, but rather going by a very biased view. You have in your sig  an FFXIV banner that lists your accomplishments. If you are like most people, the reason you have that there is because you are proud of it or want to show it off. It's still pixels, and while your argument is that you 'earned' them, the view of other might be that you wasted a ridiculous amount of time collecting pixels and virtual badges. See, you can rationalize that one is more important, better, or superior to the other, but in reality it's all a matter of what you value and what you enjoy.

 

It's just very hypocritical to insult someone based on how they spend their leisure resources when you are proudly showing off how you spend yours.

 

 

For me its not agaisnt the players, but the game design. Anytime i see someone finding the perfect game for them, i actualy am happy for them. Even if its not my choice. I have had a few long loved mmo's ripped from my hands and know the feeling of finding the "perfect" one. But still doesnt take away that games today are shallow in many aspects.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/14/13 11:55:22 AM#14
Originally posted by Onomas

Im sick and tired of all you trying to tell me F2P is so great.

Its not. . Anyone with a decent job can easily afford a 15/month fee. Thats 50 cents a day, its so trivial its not even funny. In the past 7 years its the only thing that hasnt gone up 400% in our economy!!!!! So if you ahve a job and dont want to sub, then either the game was bad to you to begin with, or you just dont want to pay anything at all to play a game.

The amount of profits these companies are getting from cash shops is trivial. You can have 400k paying subs or a game with 1 million accounts with 5% of the people paying into the shop. Do the math.

F2P:

Pay for mounts 10-25$

Pay for character slots 10$

Pay for inventory slots 10$

Pay for action toolbars 5-10$?

Pay for dungeons 5-10$

Pay for housing and decor 3-10$

Pay for costumes and outfits 5-15$

Pay for missions 5-15$

Pay for unlocking higher grade speed, armor, weapons, etc.

Pay for upgrades to weapons, armor, etc can cost hundreds insome games

Pay for races 5-10$

Pay for classes 5-10$

Pay for well i could go on for about a hour........you add your own here.

P2P:

I pay 15$ and get eerything free.........

 

And the person that doesn't want any of that stuff paid nothing.

And the person that wanted only one or two of those thing paid only a few dollars.

You, on the other hand, bought a box and are paying a sub fee.

 

When the expansion comes out (L2 and EVE, aside), you're going to pay another 30-60 dollars otherwise you are blocked from moving forward, as level caps and new zones are usually tied to the expansion. The F2P player is often not blocked in such a manner and, of they are, they only pay a few dollars for the features they want. 

New expansion comes out with new levels and features you don't want? You pay for all or get none. The F2P guy pays for none.

All the while you're paying your 15 dollars, about 90% of the free to play users are paying nothing... at all.

 

You don't 'get everything for free'. You're paying for it, whether you want it or not.

  Thorkune

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/28/06
Posts: 1772

Dyslexics of the world...UNTIE!

1/14/13 12:01:08 PM#15
Originally posted by VoreDock

 

I am sick of all you people saying free to play is a sell out or a bad

 

Tera , SWTOR , Aion  all for teas games went  F2P for one reason  to  give  sub players more people to play with

 

All had   good numbers but Dev’s can’t justify a games life to publishers on anything less than great numbers

So F2P was added  you can still sub and many do

 

F2P is a good thing after all without it publishers like EA would kill games and even the sub players would be left out

 

Or have we all forgot SWG   (Star Wars Galaxys )

Some f2p title are good, but games like SWTOR are too heavily restricted for the f2p crowd. Aion and Lotro are good examples of friendly f2p titles. Lotro is restricted, but you can earn turbine points in the game...so it isn't too bad.

And, SWG had a good enough population. Besides, It would be f2p now if LA hadn't killed it.

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/14/13 12:03:17 PM#16
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Onomas

Im sick and tired of all you trying to tell me F2P is so great.

Its not. . Anyone with a decent job can easily afford a 15/month fee. Thats 50 cents a day, its so trivial its not even funny. In the past 7 years its the only thing that hasnt gone up 400% in our economy!!!!! So if you ahve a job and dont want to sub, then either the game was bad to you to begin with, or you just dont want to pay anything at all to play a game.

The amount of profits these companies are getting from cash shops is trivial. You can have 400k paying subs or a game with 1 million accounts with 5% of the people paying into the shop. Do the math.

F2P:

Pay for mounts 10-25$

Pay for character slots 10$

Pay for inventory slots 10$

Pay for action toolbars 5-10$?

Pay for dungeons 5-10$

Pay for housing and decor 3-10$

Pay for costumes and outfits 5-15$

Pay for missions 5-15$

Pay for unlocking higher grade speed, armor, weapons, etc.

Pay for upgrades to weapons, armor, etc can cost hundreds insome games

Pay for races 5-10$

Pay for classes 5-10$

Pay for well i could go on for about a hour........you add your own here.

P2P:

I pay 15$ and get eerything free.........

 

And the person that doesn't want any of that stuff paid nothing.

And the person that wanted only one or two of those thing paid only a few dollars.

You, on the other hand, bought a box and are paying a sub fee.

 

When the expansion comes out (L2 and EVE, aside), you're going to pay another 30-60 dollars otherwise you are blocked from moving forward, as level caps and new zones are usually tied to the expansion. The F2P player is often not blocked in such a manner and, of they are, they only pay a few dollars for the features they want. 

New expansion comes out with new levels and features you don't want? You pay for all or get none. The F2P guy pays for none.

All the while you're paying your 15 dollars, about 90% of the free to play users are paying nothing... at all.

 

You don't 'get everything for free'. You're paying for it, whether you want it or not.

F2P games charge for expansions also ;) LoTRO just released one for 50$, TSW will be doing DLC's, AoEO, EQ2, etc....

And in most F2P games content is locked until you pay, atleast most the ones i tried. Or the updates are based around the cash shop and not game content - atlantica online, etc.......

It goes both ways, but in general i get more for my 15/month. If im paying 15/montha and you are paying nothing in a freemium type game you wont ever be on equal footing as myself and other sub players.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

1/14/13 12:08:26 PM#17

  I like F2P as a concept, but only when a game is built upon it from the word go.  The premise is great, its basically a payment format that says, "We are putting our money where our mouth is.  You don't have to pay for anything until we've earned it"  That is a bold statement, and, when done correctly, is one I stand behind.  Sadly, most do not view it that way, and use the model as a cash grab from dummies.  Some are good, though.  The model would do even better on consoles, where our age of online stores could really push DLC in a heavy and important way. 

  I really wish TSW had released to console in the format its currently using, as I'd be playing it today.  I really don't like PC gaming anymore, and, as such, have been avoiding most MMO gaming like the plague.

  krevra

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 19

1/14/13 12:31:06 PM#18

Alot of those items you listed are bought over time when needed thats the big differance between f2p and p2p. As for expansions, i dont recall paying for Aion expansions? Not all games have pay for expansions, your generalling prices and th f2p market as a whole. Also you dont get anything free in p2p, i mean your paying to play...and you you pay for a sub you are in contract with that company for a certain duration. at 15 bucks a month thats 180 a year  not including you buying the game thats at least 50 and you paying for expansions as well and lets not forget that p2p games are now adopting cashshops as well aka WoW and others. heres a nice one for you 

World of Warcraft Mount: Celestial Steed : $25

See what i did thar?

Its not that its cheaper or more expensive in the long run for f2p though BOTH are valid points since one can pay just 10 bucks for a mount and never pay a dime again or spend 100 bucks a month, thats thar choice, same with p2p. I feel like i have to try an squeeze every penny out of a p2p game since its just another bill. With f2p sometimes i pay nothing for months othertimes i spend more money and im fine with it cause its on my terms, im not forced into it i can enjoy the game and not pay at all. So both arguements are valid sure its cheaper for p2p but others dont like another bill stacked on top. Point being both F2P is a good model thats here to stay and just like every single early start of ANYTHING, its rough as hell, f2p at first was just these generic korean grinders, now we see titles being flipped into f2p to make more money and now we are hearing compainies state that thar future mmos will be f2p cause its a great model.

F2P in the mmoworld just like gaming in general is NEW it hasnt been around 100s of years. We are in a stage where we figure out what works best. Just like cashshops Allods is a decent example at first rediculous ass cash shop that was greedy as hell and if you were thar for that you know exactly what i mean, over time they took off certain items and balanced it better. This whole thing is a learning process. In the end in f2p pays you pay for what you want when you want and play whenever and for as long or as little as you please with out feeling you need to squeeze every bit out of those 15 bucks a month plus all the other fees you pay for aka expansions, and cashshops. So when your gonna point at f2p and call it expensive please look at what your comparing it too and dont have such a biased opionion, 15 bucks and you get everything for free. Get outta here.

I have nothing against f2p or p2p, but to call f2p low quality or a sell out or bad is ignorance at best.

 

  thinktank001

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1762

1/14/13 12:47:00 PM#19
Originally posted by Gishgeron

  I like F2P as a concept, but only when a game is built upon it from the word go.  The premise is great, its basically a payment format that says, "We are putting our money where our mouth is.  You don't have to pay for anything until we've earned it"  That is a bold statement, and, when done correctly, is one I stand behind.  Sadly, most do not view it that way, and use the model as a cash grab from dummies.  Some are good, though.  The model would do even better on consoles, where our age of online stores could really push DLC in a heavy and important way. 

  I really wish TSW had released to console in the format its currently using, as I'd be playing it today.  I really don't like PC gaming anymore, and, as such, have been avoiding most MMO gaming like the plague.

 

F2P isn't a concept.   It is a marketing term.  Games with cash shop are based on the idea of paying for advancement.  Players don't purchase items because they want to support the game.  We buy them so our characters can gain an advantage.  

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 996

1/14/13 12:50:34 PM#20
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
If they created quality game in the first place most of these games wouldn't need to go f2p,  most f2p games are just a cash grab.  Milking players because players are to stupid and will pay any amount of money to be ahead, paying out hundreds of bucks for pixels you never will own is something I can never understand, or maybe I'm the stupid one to understand why those players do so.

Not stupid, but rather going by a very biased view. You have in your sig an FFXIV banner that lists your accomplishments. If you are like most people, the reason you have that there is because you are proud of it or want to show it off. It's still pixels, and while your argument is that you 'earned' them, the view of other might be that you wasted a ridiculous amount of time collecting pixels and virtual badges. See, you can rationalize that one is more important, better, or superior to the other, but in reality it's all a matter of what you value and what you enjoy.

 

It's just very hypocritical to insult someone based on how they spend their leisure resources when you are proudly showing off how you spend yours.

 

 

Big difference between playing a game and earning acheivements along the way and spend 50/100/200 bucks or whatever some players pay to have items within 5 minutes of playing a game, buying items isnt really an acheivement and they in most part probably didn't get any entertainment value from the purchase either.

As for my signature, its there because it represents my character not for the lvls I gained, that part of the art came with it.  But seem as you brought it up, I acheived the lvls through time playing the game which was entertainment value for my time playing, not because I have a bigger wallet than the next person.

If you felt I insulted you then you took it personally, and probably one of the guilty ones who has spent more money on f2p games than you would in a subscription model, whether you did or not is none of my business, though my opinion on the subject is more than likely very opposite of yours from reading into your response.  I value money and I enjoy gaming.


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